Celestial Armor AND Glowing Wings??? BOO-YAH!!
By
Aggelakis,
Posted on: 2011-07-22 06:29 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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It also helps to remember that most "Tights" options are rather simplistic. Meaning the majority of them were covered in the beginning. Anything else will just be more of the same. Anything else new they add in other areas will really be something new because it frequently requires new costume/graphic tech, new art assets, new designers, e.t.c. More tights options will require... one person coming up with a new pattern.That would sound easy, but what it means is things the game couldn't conceivably do before they can try and do now, and it means that holes in the costume creators options can be filled.|
Originally Posted by Furio
The point I made still seems to be overlooked. "More variations of tights!" isn't the kind of thing that has the visual wow factor needed to turn heads (of people not already playing, at least) at an event like Comic Con. If I was doing the marketing, even the addition of 100 new tights patterns/variations would only merit a "below the fold" ("after the jump", for you raised on the 'net young 'uns) mention on any press materials about the new issue. Especially considering how much there is coming to the table with Issue 21
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With other options , there were(and still are) huge holes in terms of what can be done. With tights, the holes are smaller and more specific. It's the
Armor
>Glowing Armor>Glowing Tech Armor
>Glowing Magic Armor
> Glowing Bio Armor
Vs.
Tights
>Pattern
With tights, we HAVE tights. At best we'd just be adding more specificity, not doing something that isn't done.
Lastly the whole "Tights" look is essentially painting the human form. This is problematic in that it's a uniquely expressed concept that has trouble in our system. Most of what people on this side of the issue are requesting is "more Patterns" maybe "More Textures" but usually not.
That's an infinitely expandable concept in a way that "Glowy X armor" isn't
Once you get glowy armor... you have it. It actually takes less work to get to the ultimate(reasonable) end of Non-tights options than it does for tights options, purely because tights options don't truly have one. The "Ultimate end" here being the point at which anything else added would be more satisfying the needs of an individual rather than expressing a ubiquitous concept in the culture. Without an ability to "Paint" tights, the patterns have nothing to do but get added nigh-constantly to properly represent anything someone can want/design because it's such a simplistic base to start with.
Tights costumes are nothing if not splashes on a canvas. This game doesn't give us a paint-brush set and paints. It gives us Legos.
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I agree. We aren't stuck with nothing but variations on fantasy characters or different types of soldiers or guys in different models of powered armor. We can mix and match, we can come up with our own original or just plain weird character concept and look. We can make it fit in the game historical background or say he just wandered in from another universe and it still works.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
What I mean is I enjoy City of Heroes because in this game, really any thematic is appropriate.
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Arc #40529 : The Furies of the Earth
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Just speculating, but I'm guessing the by the way the design process works, the concepts for both costume sets were probably settled on at around the same time.
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Originally Posted by Stryph
That looks like Ascension armor....
Seems like they fell in love with the look of Ascension armor and tried to duplicate it. |
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Y'know, more tights patterns and textures couldn't hurt. Hell, the patterns alone kind of help spice up some of that metallic armor too.
Thankfully, in Issue 21, it does look like we're getting a new texture for tights. So everyone wins anyway.
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Everyone always wins... Therefore, everyone always loses!! |
Originally Posted by Scythus
...So everyone wins anyway.
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@Zethustra
"Now at midnight all the agents and the superhuman crew come out
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
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I disagree. When I think about Superman or Batman, I roll my eyes. The Statesman is pretty much City of Heroes' Superman, right down to the ridiculous 40s costume, and as such he stands out like a sore thumb against the much more believable and varied background of the rest of the game. City of Heroes sis not "about superheroes." It may have been inspired by American comic books of the Golden and Silver age, but that doesn't mean this is all it's "about." City of Heroes is - as I said before - about freedom of expression. If that means American comic books, anime, pulp fiction, cowboy movies, high fantasy, political drama or realistically speaking any genre where meta-humans can exist, then that's just as applicable.|
Originally Posted by Fire_Wyrm
City of Heroes is a game about superheroes. As such, it should represent superheroes. When most people think "Superhero", they think Superman, or Batman, or Spider-Man.
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City of Heroes is, currently, the only "super hero" game on the market that isn't JUST about super heroes. Not incidentally, it's also the best game out there with quite literally no serious competition. And this freedom of expression and over-abundance of no particular theme is one of the central reasons why. Comic books are still niche appeal, so keeping a game as primarily about comic books is a mistake, especially now that they're looking to expand.
I have nothing against comic books as a theme, of course. But the game provides you AMPLE tools to emulate pretty much all the comic book heroes and villains you might want. That's not to say it can't have more, and definitely not to say it SHOULDN'T have more. After all, I've been asking for smooth tights on Big and Banded boots and gloves, and more patterns can never hurt. But this IS to say that the fictional universe doesn't need more people wearing tights. Comic books have their history dating back 60 years, if not more. In them, it makes sense to see people running around in stretchy polyester. City of Heroes and its world, however, are borrowed more from contemporary reality, and as such, you see characters of all kinds.
But you are right: When I think "super heroes," I do think about Superman and Batman. And then I change the channel. I'm glad those two aren't rammed down my throat in City of Heroes.
---
There isn't any one thing that City of Heroes is "about." It's "about" everything and nothing at all at the same time.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Not in I21 - I've heard that the only way to win the game then is to pay cash - that's the only way you'll be able to avoid a tie or defeat by the game.
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Originally Posted by Electric-Knight
Everyone always wins
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
Personally, I like variety. So what if we have all these options that sometimes aren't found in comic books? Oh fluffing well, we're supposed to be creative with the costume creator. There are tons of ways to make a typical comic book superhero, and then theres ways to make Thor types, Green Arrow types, etc.
Don't see the big deal about more armor and the wings, but then again I can't find myself hating I21 / Freedom either.
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I agree completely. The costume editor shines the brightest when it comes to variety and to creating your own unique characters - in the literal sense of that word. City of Heroes already does quite well when it comes to tights costumes. If there's more to add in that regard, then by all means - ask for it. I'd support you. More stuff in any theme is still more stuff in the editor. If you feel we need more "costumed" NPCs, then go ahead and suggest that, too. I'd probably back you up in this regard, as well. More variety can never hurt.|
Originally Posted by ShadowWings
Personally, I like variety. So what if we have all these options that sometimes aren't found in comic books? Oh fluffing well, we're supposed to be creative with the costume creator. There are tons of ways to make a typical comic book superhero, and then theres ways to make Thor types, Green Arrow types, etc.
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It's when people start asking for LESS variety and for LESS costume options in anything that's inconsistent with their definition of what "super heroes" should be that I take issue. This game is a little of everything, and the more themes it covers, the broader its appeal. Yes, even when it covers things I don't particularly like, like Steampunk gear or Carnival of Shadows costumes. Arguments about what the game shouldn't have or have less off don't really help anybody.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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"City of Heroes (CoH) is a massively multiplayer online role-playing game based on the superhero comic book genre..."|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
I disagree. When I think about Superman or Batman, I roll my eyes. The Statesman is pretty much City of Heroes' Superman, right down to the ridiculous 40s costume, and as such he stands out like a sore thumb against the much more believable and varied background of the rest of the game. City of Heroes sis not "about superheroes." It may have been inspired by American comic books of the Golden and Silver age, but that doesn't mean this is all it's "about." City of Heroes is - as I said before - about freedom of expression. If that means American comic books, anime, pulp fiction, cowboy movies, high fantasy, political drama or realistically speaking any genre where meta-humans can exist, then that's just as applicable.
City of Heroes is, currently, the only "super hero" game on the market that isn't JUST about super heroes. Not incidentally, it's also the best game out there with quite literally no serious competition. And this freedom of expression and over-abundance of no particular theme is one of the central reasons why. Comic books are still niche appeal, so keeping a game as primarily about comic books is a mistake, especially now that they're looking to expand. I have nothing against comic books as a theme, of course. But the game provides you AMPLE tools to emulate pretty much all the comic book heroes and villains you might want. That's not to say it can't have more, and definitely not to say it SHOULDN'T have more. After all, I've been asking for smooth tights on Big and Banded boots and gloves, and more patterns can never hurt. But this IS to say that the fictional universe doesn't need more people wearing tights. Comic books have their history dating back 60 years, if not more. In them, it makes sense to see people running around in stretchy polyester. City of Heroes and its world, however, are borrowed more from contemporary reality, and as such, you see characters of all kinds. But you are right: When I think "super heroes," I do think about Superman and Batman. And then I change the channel. I'm glad those two aren't rammed down my throat in City of Heroes. --- There isn't any one thing that City of Heroes is "about." It's "about" everything and nothing at all at the same time. |
Source:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/City_of_Heroes
"City of Heroes® brings the world of comic books alive in this massively multiplayer 3D online universe."
Source: http://www.cityofheroes.com/about_th...s_overiew.html
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And superheroes can be of all costume differences. Thor, Hulk, Ant-Man, Iron Man, Hawkeye, Green Lantern, and more. A lot of them have the same style, yes, but there is still variety from each hero to the next. Even villains have variety. Dr. Doom, Galactus. Dr. Octopus, Kingpin, etc.|
Originally Posted by Xanatos
"City of Heroes (CoH) is a massively multiplayer online role-playing game based on the superhero comic book genre..."
Source:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/City_of_Heroes "City of Heroes® brings the world of comic books alive in this massively multiplayer 3D online universe." Source: http://www.cityofheroes.com/about_th...s_overiew.html |
Putting the links and quoting Sam helped his point.
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Yeah but you know what's the same for all those heroes except for Iron Man and the Hulk? They all wear spandex! The variety is to tell them apart and illustrate their powers or background, but the basic spandex look is still there.|
Originally Posted by ShadowWings
And superheroes can be of all costume differences. Thor, Hulk, Ant-Man, Iron Man, Hawkeye, Green Lantern, and more. A lot of them have the same style, yes, but there is still variety from each hero to the next. Even villains have variety. Dr. Doom, Galactus. Dr. Octopus, Kingpin, etc.
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Villains vary a lot more so than heroes in comic books. You have just as many spandex-clad villains (so very many examples) as you do criminal kingpins in suits (Lex Luthor, Kingpin), monstrous villains (The Lizard, Gorilla Grodd), and villains in power armor (Dr. Doom, Iron Monger).
So yes you have many variations in superheroes and villains, but one of the staples of comic book heroes and villains (what this game is supposed to be based on) is spandex.
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| Putting the links and quoting Sam helped his point. |
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city of heroes main hook is no doubt comic book themes but theres way more to "Heroes" than whats in the every day western comic book and way more to comic books as a medium than what's in the every day western comic book.|
Originally Posted by Xanatos
"City of Heroes (CoH) is a massively multiplayer online role-playing game based on the superhero comic book genre..."
Source:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/City_of_Heroes "City of Heroes® brings the world of comic books alive in this massively multiplayer 3D online universe." Source: http://www.cityofheroes.com/about_th...s_overiew.html |
I'm glad the dev team has incorporated more art aesthetics than what you seem to think is appropriate and that has been the case since Issue 0.
All my costume concepts are either High Tech Armor, Tactical Military, Ninja-ish, Samurai-ish, plain clothes or Movie/Ultimates 2/Supreme Power like; I only have one costume across all my alts with a spandex top and bottom but that only because it was the closest I could get to my concept and thus I'm only semi satisfied with it.
A hero can be anything, and the same goes for superheros. Its not a matter of how they look (so to speak), but how they use their powers / gifts / skills and for what purpose. Yes, spandex has been a prime part of superheroes, but to say that armor like the Ascencion Armor and Celestial Armor is not needed is close minded and imho, shows a lack of imagination. If you have the right concept and mind behind it, those pieces fit very well into the game.
By the logic I'm seeing of the haters, we'd have to remove 99% of the items from the Booster Packs and from the releases to be a 'right' Superhero game, something I figure that would kill the game.
This game has successfully done well on its own without having to limit people like the other game. The more options, the better you can do with them. Its a matter of using your imagination and what is given to you. The more that is given means more chances to go above and beyond with originality.
EDIT: On the spandex note. We have that. We have plenty of it, and the options for patterns and what we can add onto the spandex does not limit us. From what I have seen on CoHGuru, here, and around the game, I can assure you that those who like spandex heroes do a damn good job at it with what we got.
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Except that spandex is already in the game. As has been repeatedly pointed out we have tights with many, many different patterns that can superimposed. Honestly, besides variations in colour scheme spandex outfits tend to be pretty similar. When we do get new non-spandex pieces added they Devs also frequently add new patterns to the tights options based on the new pieces. (Although not every new set, like Steampunk, has pieces that lend themselves to new tights patterns.) There aren't many ways to add much more to tights. We started out with an extremely varied selection of spandex options as it was.|
Originally Posted by Fire_Wyrm
Yeah but you know what's the same for all those heroes except for Iron Man and the Hulk? They all wear spandex! The variety is to tell them apart and illustrate their powers or background, but the basic spandex look is still there.
Villains vary a lot more so than heroes in comic books. You have just as many spandex-clad villains (so very many examples) as you do criminal kingpins in suits (Lex Luthor, Kingpin), monstrous villains (The Lizard, Gorilla Grodd), and villains in power armor (Dr. Doom, Iron Monger). So yes you have many variations in superheroes and villains, but one of the staples of comic book heroes and villains (what this game is supposed to be based on) is spandex. No it didn't. It showed that no matter what he thinks CoH is about, at its core, it is about comic book superheroes. It has strayed from that with all this crazy glowy mythical armor. |
Not to mention that current superhero comics don't have very much in the way of plain spandex wearers. i suppose if it was advertised as a 50s to 70s superheroes themed MMO then your argument would make more sense, but even by the 80s a lot of superheroes were going less and less for the spandex option.
What, exactly, would you add to tights that isn't already there? 220 subtle variations on vertical striping patterns to allow exactly the right sort of stripes for every outfit?
Dr. Todt's theme.
i make stuff...
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The only thing we'll probably ever see eye to eye on in the context of this game
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Originally Posted by Xanatos
I know it's unlikely, but introducing a third colour and/or asymetrical patterns would be amazing.
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And honestly, the main reason "spandex" was so prevalent as the superhero uniform in comic's early days was simply because *it was easy to draw*. You've gotta draw the same character in dozens of panels a month and do it in 4-color separation, the easiest thing to do is draw a nude with some extra lines to show where the "outfit" is.
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I see that armor structurally (maybe with the glow toned down a little) and think Galactus, Space-Knights (the other ones who were a lot less bland then Rom himself), various Asgardians from the Thor comics when they armored up, some of the stuff when a hero or villain would strap on some power armor to compete or find some ancient one-shot relic, Celestials, and a bunch of stuff from super hero manga. It certainly doesn't look like something I'd expect to pop up in a D&D game. |
Originally Posted by Fire_Wyrm
It showed that no matter what he thinks CoH is about, at its core, it is about comic book superheroes. It has strayed from that with all this crazy glowy mythical armor.
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So I'd say its filling specific elements of the super hero genre rather then straying at all.
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Since when is it "all about spandex" out in comic-book land?
I mean, sure, some of the classic hero-types do wear the stuff almost exclusively, but that's not universal. Many of the costume designs that have spandex bits in them *also* include plenty of other, non-spandex bits, too. (See Green Arrow's outfit, for instance, or Thor's-). They're not limited to skin-tight body-suits.
Some characters wouldn't look at all like themselves in a get-up like Superman or the Flash wear, either. Can you imagine, say, Warlord or The Question in something like that? Heck, I'll even throw my own favorite out there... Try to picture Doctor Strange in an all-bodysuits-all-the-time world. (It was bad enough when they tried that with Clea's costume. I'd hate to see it happen to poor Stephen. o_0)
So, yeah. I don't mind the spandex being there. It has its place, it's useful as a base for more complex designs and for people who want to go for the body-suit look... But I really can't look at the comic book characters I like reading about, and then at my own toons, and honestly say "They must dress like X or else!" Ollie needs his hat, Doc needs his ridiculous cape, Thor needs his armor and Question without his trench-coat would just be wrong. My crew need their martial arts outfits, goofy swords and glowy armor. 
Diversity in designs is good.
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I just want more tights patterns. Is that so much to ask for?
no, actually the last time we got them(vandal perplex, arctic and the like), they were pretty nice, its more the attitude that in order to get tights, lets screw over people who enjoy anime, medieval comics, military comics, powersuits, supernatural characters, monster characters, modern superhero fans and the like, because they dont belong.
i don't mind tights, i rarely use them because for a character that is supposed to integrate into a real-ish world, they look hysterically corny, but they have their place in comics, generally in older, throw-back comics where they dont look drastically corny in context, but that is one thing i hate about longbow, non-powered people wearing tights just looks silly and would be horribly non-functional. where the heck do they even store their ammo?(yes i know some wear bandoleers, most dont) What i'd like to see is tights being treated a bit like martial arts outfits. you can use most martial arts in a comfortable set of jeans and a t-shirt, but the robes and gi's are there to visually distinguish the character right away as a martial artist. tights on enemy groups should be limited to those who are actually powered. in this respect crey gets it the most correct, gunmen and techie guys wear appropriate armor, and the powered wear tights, great progression.. we also got a lot of "tights" enemies and allies in tips missions. but for the overall game, i like the balanced approach, more tights, sure yeah, but in balance with more power armor, more martial arts garb(why the HELL dont we have a good fighting cheongsam yet?) and more beast options.
there is a reason i play 2 superhero mmos and not the third, two draw from a balanced set of outfits, and one is all damn tights all the time.
It also helps that the only meaningful things they could add to tights options in this game
1: Third color option
2: asymmetrical design options
would probably require new tech/nodes/programming and would affect those "Other" style costume pieces as well.
The point being only thing that can currently be added to tights is something that needs to be added to the game as a whole, not a "tights specific" option.
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No, no, no, no. You're overgeneralizing. I'm not against adding more options. I just want stuff that's reminiscent of the "classic superhero" look. If that wasn't clear then that's my fault.|
Originally Posted by ShadowWings
A hero can be anything, and the same goes for superheros. Its not a matter of how they look (so to speak), but how they use their powers / gifts / skills and for what purpose. Yes, spandex has been a prime part of superheroes, but to say that armor like the Ascencion Armor and Celestial Armor is not needed is close minded and imho, shows a lack of imagination. If you have the right concept and mind behind it, those pieces fit very well into the game.
By the logic I'm seeing of the haters, we'd have to remove 99% of the items from the Booster Packs and from the releases to be a 'right' Superhero game, something I figure that would kill the game. |
You guys keep making the argument that we already have tons of Spandex stuff, but we have tons of big, bulky armor stuff as well, not all of it glows like the new stuff, but it's there.
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Originally Posted by Schismatrix
What, exactly, would you add to tights that isn't already there? 220 subtle variations on vertical striping patterns to allow exactly the right sort of stripes for every outfit?
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Originally Posted by Bright
Since when is it "all about spandex" out in comic-book land?
I mean, sure, some of the classic hero-types do wear the stuff almost exclusively, but that's not universal. Many of the costume designs that have spandex bits in them *also* include plenty of other, non-spandex bits, too. (See Green Arrow's outfit, for instance, or Thor's-). They're not limited to skin-tight body-suits. Some characters wouldn't look at all like themselves in a get-up like Superman or the Flash wear, either. Can you imagine, say, Warlord or The Question in something like that? Heck, I'll even throw my own favorite out there... Try to picture Doctor Strange in an all-bodysuits-all-the-time world. (It was bad enough when they tried that with Clea's costume. I'd hate to see it happen to poor Stephen. o_0) |
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Originally Posted by rian_frostdrake
no, actually the last time we got them(vandal perplex, arctic and the like), they were pretty nice, its more the attitude that in order to get tights, lets screw over people who enjoy anime, medieval comics, military comics, powersuits, supernatural characters, monster characters, modern superhero fans and the like, because they dont belong.
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| i don't mind tights, i rarely use them because for a character that is supposed to integrate into a real-ish world, they look hysterically corny, but they have their place in comics, generally in older, throw-back comics where they dont look drastically corny in context, but that is one thing i hate about longbow, non-powered people wearing tights just looks silly and would be horribly non-functional. where the heck do they even store their ammo?(yes i know some wear bandoleers, most dont) What i'd like to see is tights being treated a bit like martial arts outfits. you can use most martial arts in a comfortable set of jeans and a t-shirt, but the robes and gi's are there to visually distinguish the character right away as a martial artist. tights on enemy groups should be limited to those who are actually powered. in this respect crey gets it the most correct, gunmen and techie guys wear appropriate armor, and the powered wear tights, great progression.. we also got a lot of "tights" enemies and allies in tips missions. but for the overall game, i like the balanced approach, more tights, sure yeah, but in balance with more power armor, more martial arts garb(why the HELL dont we have a good fighting cheongsam yet?) and more beast options. |
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Originally Posted by Premonitions
It also helps that the only meaningful things they could add to tights options in this game
1: Third color option 2: asymmetrical design options would probably require new tech/nodes/programming and would affect those "Other" style costume pieces as well. |
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| The point being only thing that can currently be added to tights is something that needs to be added to the game as a whole, not a "tights specific" option. |
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That looks like Ascension armor....
Seems like they fell in love with the look of Ascension armor and tried to duplicate it. The wings is an interesting touch however but in terms of armor, I dunno. And I'm usually the guy that likes to run around with the Valkyrie armor's Shoulders at least once per toon =/
But I guess it all balances out after catching a glimpse of the IDF and PD armor costumes.