I've been playing since CoV launched, and ever since Brutes were introduced people have predicted that players would abandon Tanks wholesale to play Brutes. Didn't happen when CoV launched, and it didn't happen when side-switching was allowed as it was again predicted.
Brutes have had access to most Tank primaries and secondaries for years, why do you think that people will suddenly stop playing Tankers NOW? I'll believe it when I see it.
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Knight Court--A CoH Story Complete 2/3/2012
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Didn't happen when CoV launched? Brutes were THE most popular AT red side. Comparatively, Tankers were one of the least popular blue ATs.|
Originally Posted by Finduilas
IDidn't happen when CoV launched, and it didn't happen when side-switching was allowed as it was again predicted.
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Now, post-side switching, I see way more Brutes than Tankers, especially in trials. The last trial I was on had six Brutes, four Scrappers and one Tanker. It was dubbed Team Melee.
Will there ever be a point where there's ZERO Tankers? Unlikely. But that's not the argument.
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Personally if that were to happen I would like to see more animations then for BS/Axe/Mace. Tune the animations around to being more fluid and less basic while not making the attacks themselves too quick.
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Originally Posted by Finduilas
I know, heartbreaking, isn't it?
How can I make Minsc and Lilarcor without Broadsword for Tanks? |
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Sounds like you want to turn this game into a generic fantasy MMO setting, when I'd rather keep it to feeling like a super hero comic, where my character doesn't need a tank to take on things you see comic book super heroes take on daily.
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Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
The game doesn't force this enough. Scrappers and Brutes have way more survivability than they need and are over protected while on a team due to buffs and what not. Solo or on teams, they experience little downside for having less survivability than a Tanker, and as long as Tankers are forced to trade significant damage for increased survivability they don't need, I say that's a problem.
People have said in the past all that means is that we need harder content. This line of thinking is bogus. We got "harder content" and all it did was make the double standard more prominent. Tin Mage and Apex are harder. The I-trials are harder. But... Battle Maiden's sword bombs will surely kill a Tanker as quick as a Scrapper or Brute. Angry Boobcat will easily tear up all three, but all three can be buffed and healed to stand up to her. Tankers still deal mediocre damage in both situations. The Keyes pulse doesn't hit Tankers for significantly less, and most of the other special mechanics on this trial circumvent the superior survivability numbers Tankers get, essentially treating all the melee ATs equally, but Tankers still deal the least damage the whole time despite this. The bottom line: Brute and Scrapper survivability is way up in all content thanks to the Incarnate system and I don't see a suitable reciprocated increase in Tanker damage, thanks to among other factors, a crappy damage cap. The "harder content" doesn't favor Tanker survivability over any other melee AT's survivability very much at all; if it's gonna kill a Scrapper or Brute, it'll kill a Tanker, and it wont kill any of the three when they're buried in team buffs. Yet the whole time, Tankers still have to suffer significantly inferior standing damage and caps to pay for more out-of-the-box survivability that seems less and less relevant when everyone's got Barrier Destiny these days. . |
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The BrandX Collection
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Bobcat is mean if you kill Neuron first. I find I generally have more leeway with the sword bombs on my tankers than on my scrappers or brute.|
Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
Battle Maiden's sword bombs will surely kill a Tanker as quick as a Scrapper or Brute. Angry Boobcat will easily tear up all three, but all three can be buffed and healed to stand up to her. Tankers still deal mediocre damage in both situations.
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Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
The Keyes pulse doesn't hit Tankers for significantly less, and most of the other special mechanics on this trial circumvent the superior survivability numbers Tankers get, essentially treating all the melee ATs equally, but Tankers still deal the least damage the whole time despite this.
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Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
The bottom line: Brute and Scrapper survivability is way up in all content thanks to the Incarnate system and I don't see a suitable reciprocated increase in Tanker damage, thanks to among other factors, a crappy damage cap. The "harder content" doesn't favor Tanker survivability over any other melee AT's survivability very much at all; if it's gonna kill a Scrapper or Brute, it'll kill a Tanker, and it wont kill any of the three when they're buried in team buffs. Yet the whole time, Tankers still have to suffer significantly inferior standing damage and caps to pay for more out-of-the-box survivability that seems less and less relevant when everyone's got Barrier Destiny these days.
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Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
Just because you don't care that there's a disparity or don't mind that Tankers aren't being treated equitably, doesn't mean there isn't and that they are.
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Just because you believe there is a disparity and feel that tankers are somehow being treated inequitably, doesn't mean there is and they are. |
Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
Just because you don't care that there's a disparity or don't mind that Tankers aren't being treated equitably, doesn't mean there isn't and that they are.
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Now we both said useless things!
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
Why do I suddenly hear Calliope music and have the urge to eat buttered popcorn?
Did the circus move into town for the summer? 
Throwing darts at the board to see if something sticks.....
Come show your resolve and fight my brute!
Tanks: Gauntlet, the streak breaker and you!
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Originally Posted by PapaSlade
Rangle's right....this is fun.
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I play Tanks because nothing in the game controls aggro like a tank, no Brute will ever get quite to the level of invincible a tank gets, and nothing feels more godlike then standing in front of a Rikti Pylon with complete immunity...
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Originally Posted by BigBoss Eyepatch
I think that is the main disparity being hinted at above. With the way the game is now, why build a Tanker anymore when you can have a brute?
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"when i can savagely beat sheep while issuing ultimatums and torturing people, then i may go back into it" -vara nocturne
Not enough Evil...
I take it back NC SOFT is enough evil for anyone...
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Funny I saw WAY more Stalkers, doms, MM, and cors then brutes.
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Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
Didn't happen when CoV launched? Brutes were THE most popular AT red side. Comparatively, Tankers were one of the least popular blue ATs.
Now, post-side switching, I see way more Brutes than Tankers, especially in trials. The last trial I was on had six Brutes, four Scrappers and one Tanker. It was dubbed Team Melee. Will there ever be a point where there's ZERO Tankers? Unlikely. But that's not the argument. . |
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Circuses are fun. This thread, not so much.|
Originally Posted by Rangle M. Down
Why do I suddenly hear Calliope music and have the urge to eat buttered popcorn?
Did the circus move into town for the summer? |
Personally, I don't care much about damage. With three melee ATs that specialize in it already, I don't much see the point in making Tankers damage dealers.
That said, with the role of tanking able to be fielded by so many ATs, being the best at it matters less and less. I'd rather see Bruising expanded upon. I'd rather be melee debuff, and team buff. Its not enough to just manage aggro better anymore. Certainly not at times when there are only a few targets.
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The main drawback of bruising is that it doesn't get any more useful with more than one tanker in the team. With teams this is borderline acceptable, but now with leagues? Should the game be designed towards encouraging only one tanker in a group of 24?|
Originally Posted by JonasAlbrecht
Circuses are fun. This thread, not so much.
Personally, I don't care much about damage. With three melee ATs that specialize in it already, I don't much see the point in making Tankers damage dealers. That said, with the role of tanking able to be fielded by so many ATs, being the best at it matters less and less. I'd rather see Bruising expanded upon. I'd rather be melee debuff, and team buff. Its not enough to just manage aggro better anymore. Certainly not at times when there are only a few targets. |
I would like to see bruising stack from multiple tankers, with diminishing returns of course.
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Auroxis - Emp/Rad/Power Defender Pylon Video Soloing an AV
Pelvic Thunder - SS/Elec/Mu Brute
Sorajin - Elec/Nin Stalker
Neuropain - Sonic/Mental/Elec Blaster
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Yup. That would be an excellent start.
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Originally Posted by Auroxis
The main drawback of bruising is that it doesn't get any more useful with more than one tanker in the team. With teams this is borderline acceptable, but now with leagues? Should the game be designed towards encouraging only one tanker in a group of 24?
I would like to see bruising stack from multiple tankers, with diminishing returns of course. |
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Have Bruised enemies take bonus damage when hit by a Tanker that is X% of the attack.|
Originally Posted by Auroxis
The main drawback of bruising is that it doesn't get any more useful with more than one tanker in the team. With teams this is borderline acceptable, but now with leagues? Should the game be designed towards encouraging only one tanker in a group of 24?
I would like to see bruising stack from multiple tankers, with diminishing returns of course. |
Then fix the damage caps.
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Ahh how did this thing end up of Tanks needing more damage?
Yeah lets just increase damage cap and give them Fury and Crits... that way we can just all play Tanks... that be fun
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This thread should have a hyperbole cap.
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Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
Ahh how did this thing end up of Tanks needing more damage?
Yeah lets just increase damage cap and give them Fury and Crits... that way we can just all play Tanks... that be fun |
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"I see way more Brutes", now *there's* a persuasive argument. |
Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
Didn't happen when CoV launched? Brutes were THE most popular AT red side. Comparatively, Tankers were one of the least popular blue ATs.
Now, post-side switching, I see way more Brutes than Tankers, especially in trials. The last trial I was on had six Brutes, four Scrappers and one Tanker. It was dubbed Team Melee. Will there ever be a point where there's ZERO Tankers? Unlikely. But that's not the argument. |
One of the devs posted some info on AT numbers fairly recently, and IIRC Brutes were the most common villain AT, which is hardly surprising since Scrappers have been the one of most common, if not the most common hero ATs since launch. They're both sturdy, do good damage, and are easy to play. I believe that Tanks were in the middle of the pack among hero ATs.
However, since I think character creation is still weighted pretty heavily to blue-side, that doesn't necessarily mean that there are fewer tankers in sheer numbers. Could be, though. (If anyone could find that post on AT numbers it would be great to see it again.)
There's absolutely NO evidence that I've seen, however, that there has been a significant decline in Tanker numbers due to players abandoning the AT and making Brutes instead. If you have some actual evidence of that, let's see it. Otherwise you're just making *&^% up to fit what you already believe to be true.
My Characters
Knight Court--A CoH Story Complete 2/3/2012
I am not a huge fan of the idea. Mostly because of when I think of a tank, I think of a guy who takes hits, not a guy who dodges everything. Not saying it is a stupid idea, just not my cup of tea. :P
"NO....No clowns" - Positron
50s: Smasha (SS/SD Brute), House Rules (Mind/Thorn Dom), Wind of Mind (Illusion/Storm Controller), Coraxa (Kat/Inv Scrapper), Summer's Dream (Fortunata)
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Shields.... Ice ?|
Originally Posted by TheCrazyCapybara
I am not a huge fan of the idea. Mostly because of when I think of a tank, I think of a guy who takes hits, not a guy who dodges everything. Not saying it is a stupid idea, just not my cup of tea. :P
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So you don't play either on Tanks?... got you
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As others have said, people have been saying this for years. People will play what they want to play, and the simple fact is that you can do well in this game with any AT and powerset combination. Some sets are good and some sets are better, and it's all about what you prefer.|
Originally Posted by BigBoss Eyepatch
I think that is the main disparity being hinted at above. With the way the game is now, why build a Tanker anymore when you can have a brute? For me personally the answer is simple, on a tanker, I don't have to monitor a fury bar.
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Some people love Brutes. Me, I don't. If I want a more survivable character, I go with a Tank. If I want straight up melee damage, I go with a Scrapper. I don't find Fury all that fun and prefer how the other two ATs work. I could put it elsewhere as well. Some people swear by Defenders, Corruptors, and MMs, but I just don't like them. But others do. No need to make a personal dislike an issue with the AT, though.
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Originally Posted by Auroxis
The main drawback of bruising is that it doesn't get any more useful with more than one tanker in the team. With teams this is borderline acceptable, but now with leagues? Should the game be designed towards encouraging only one tanker in a group of 24?
I would like to see bruising stack from multiple tankers, with diminishing returns of course. |
It's not THAT big of an issue, though, since all of the trials often have separate groups and problems to work on. And when I'm on a squishy character, I prefer having a tank on the team, especially for Lambda. Brutes and Scrappers are nice, of course, but they don't really worry about aggro too much in the collection phase, which is a huge problem for all of my squishies. A lot of +3s running around like to stomp on them, no matter what I do.
That doesn't mean people play that phase stupidly and don't run in groups or pause to take out an angry boss at 10% health, but it's still preferable to have a tank to lead things off, at least.
Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
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Thematically, Shields and Ice aren't dodging attacks, their deflecting attacks.
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Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
Shields.... Ice ?
So you don't play either on Tanks?... got you |
Ah, but Super Reflex tanks will be dodging attacks!
Throwing darts at the board to see if something sticks.....
Come show your resolve and fight my brute!
Tanks: Gauntlet, the streak breaker and you!
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Originally Posted by PapaSlade
Rangle's right....this is fun.
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I'm also kinda scratching my head as to what thematic niche this fills. I mean, I guess its fine just to have for mechanics, but still.
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Originally Posted by Rangle M. Down
Ah, but Super Reflex tanks will be dodging attacks!
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silly me.. thought you're just talking about defense...
continue on
I think that is the main disparity being hinted at above. With the way the game is now, why build a Tanker anymore when you can have a brute? For me personally the answer is simple, on a tanker, I don't have to monitor a fury bar.
But with powerset proliferation coming, soon there will be war mace, battle axe scrappers available. Heck super strength will probably make its way onto a scrapper. So with the way we are now, reason to roll a tanker gets less and less, especially when at the higher levels and post incarnate the lines between a brute and a tanker become VERY hazy. Esssentially when you get an incarnate tanker and an incarnate brute, slotted the same, the same set bonuses, the same incarnate abilities etc... The Brute is a more attractive proposition. Because for one, he's nearly as tough as the tanker, and his damage output is superior. So ****** in his armour is counteracted by his speed to kill things... ultimately, that might make a tanker, "the poor cousin" perhaps?
If that's the notion then I can't help but agree. The similar discussion is happening in the Defender forum about why roll a Defender when you can have a corruptor. Who do superior damage and buffs secondary.