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Bingo!|
Originally Posted by untoldhero
Oh wait? Could it possibly be that tanks actually do have a survivability advantage or is it the fact that tanks shine when it comes to controlling aggro, all at the cost of a mere100% less dmg cap? |
Johnny knows damn well tanks have a significant survivability advantage, that's why he keeps trying to gloss over it by saying it doesn't matter.
He wants his cake, and wants to eat it too.
You want more damage Johnny?
Either boost the survivability of scrappers and brutes to match tanks, or give up some of the survivability advantage that tanks have that you keep saying doesn't mean anything.
You don't get to have it both ways. You are NOT going to get damage potential to match scrappers unless the survivability gap is closed as well.
And it's not ME you need to convince otherwise, it's the devs. If you think I'M being stubborn about it, tell the devs exactly what you've been telling us and see how far it gets you.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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He can't. I hear they have a pretty significant nonsense filter.
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Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
tell the devs exactly what you've been telling us and see how far it gets you.
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Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
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Originally Posted by mauk2
I ain't gotta show you nuttin, bunkie.
 But, ehn, whatever.  I have a claw/inv scrapper i made the first week the game was out. LOVE that toon. A while back, I started up a claw/inv brute, to see if the hype was real. I got the brute to 45 and lost interest: It was already obvious how much beefier the brute was, and the damage was absolutely there.I put together a build, if I ever decide to brush the rust off the brute I'll put this on it: Man, what a monster. I make no claims this is the best damages out there, and I care not a fig about beating up lol pylons. But this toon as presented is a beast, tanker tough and scrapper damage. If I wanted to purple it up and tinker a bit with slot optimization, I'm sure it could be made considerably 'better', but I don't terribly care. Focus, followup, spin, it's all ya need. Claws/inv on a brute is a BEAST. |
But you do keep making claims.
You repeatedly enter threads and say things like how much of BEAST this is or how much better Brutes are.
Except I have a Claws/Invuln Brute. I have one that is not too dissimilar to the one you've posted and I don't think its as good as you are making it out to be.
Its solid, but I don't think I would rave about its performance either.
When people say Brutes are beasts, the expected notion is that it is doing near Scrapper Damage with Tanker Survivability.
I think your build looks very survivable, but I don't think it looks like it will be doing a lot of damage. And it certainly isn't as survivable as an Invuln Tanker.
Dull Pain in your build is not perma, even with Hasten Running.
You have 2950 or so Hp which is very respectable, but an Invuln Tanker can hit 3500 (as a note, I find it difficult to hit more than 3K on an Invuln Brute and meet rech and def requirements, so I think your build did well on the HP front).
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Originally Posted by mauk2
But this toon as presented is a beast, tanker tough and scrapper damage.
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Without at least some math, or better yet an actual pylon test, how do you know you are doing Scrapper Damage?
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Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
But Johnny, I thought that extra survivability was unnecessary.
At least that's what you keep saying whenever I bring up the survivability advantage tanks have over everyone else. |
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
Anyone claiming how amazing Claws is on a brute is saying that because of how stupid good Spin is.
Spin isn't going to help on a Pylon time. |
But I find a single 8ft radius PBAoE to be of limited use at the endgame.
Large/Oversized enemies, ranged mobs that don't enter melee, Friendly Fire KB, and stuff simply being dead before you can use more than one AoE are all factors that make spin not nearly as effective as it would be in the AE or even in a solo mission.
Spin is amazing, but you rarely get the chance on a fast moving team to just stand there saturated in mobs and Spin > Spin > Spin.
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Originally Posted by LSK
Ok I am getting confused I thought this was thread was for tanks? I did not realized it was for brutes and scrappers? ( damn ran out of popcorn)
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However Mauk's build IS about Tankers.
Johnny keeps spouting, endlessly, his nonsense point about Brutes "only having 10% less max HP"
He likes to say that because it makes all brutes sound much more resilient than they are. Its his way of constantly twisting information to suit his agenda.
When the reality is only Stone and Invuln (and eventually regen most likely) can currently even get to the Brute HP cap, and that will require some heavy build sacrifices that are not as dramatic or even required on the Tanker.
Look at Mauk's Build.
He has focused on high softcapped defenses, has a good deal of +HP bonuses and yet has 2950 HP or so vs. Tanker Invuln builds that can sit at 3500 and he sacrificed a fair amount of recharge as well as 2 AoE attacks to get there (Which is a decrease in offense).
This is not the "only 10% less max HP" that Johnny keeps ranting about.
It also ignores, repeatedly, the inconveniently significant Base Defense and Base Resistance advantages of the tanker.
An solid Invuln Tanker build can get to 90% SM/L Res, and sit 3500 HP with DP running.
Its also easier to get DP perma, as Tankers have more starting DEF to work off of to hit softcap and can focus on more Rech, as well as +HP bonuses to help them cap.
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These are mostly reasons why I have Shockwave. I can put the enemies where I want them.|
Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
I like spin.
But I find a single 8ft radius PBAoE to be of limited use at the endgame. Large/Oversized enemies, ranged mobs that don't enter melee, Friendly Fire KB, and stuff simply being dead before you can use more than one AoE are all factors that make spin not nearly as effective as it would be in the AE or even in a solo mission. Spin is amazing, but you rarely get the chance on a fast moving team to just stand there saturated in mobs and Spin > Spin > Spin. |
Stuff being dead before I can use one AoE is fine, because Spin recharges fast enough that it's ready for the next spawn. Fire Sword Circle, on my tank for example, is not always so.
On a fast moving team, I just have to be faster, or chose my own path. In my experience, the fastest teams are eight people soloing together. Raids as well seem to go quicker and easier when people split into small teams of 4-6. Occasionally I get a really good duo partner.
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
These are mostly reasons why I have Shockwave. I can put the enemies where I want them.
Stuff being dead before I can use one AoE is fine, because Spin recharges fast enough that it's ready for the next spawn. Fire Sword Circle, on my tank for example, is not always so. On a fast moving team, I just have to be faster, or chose my own path. In my experience, the fastest teams are eight people soloing together. Raids as well seem to go quicker and easier when people split into small teams of 4-6. Occasionally I get a really good duo partner. |
I'll send a PM to continue the discussion.
Trying not to derail the thread too much
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Fair enough, but keep in mind we are about 300 replies away from the New Tank Powersets of the OP. I don't think the thread can be salvaged.
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Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
I'll send a PM to continue the discussion.
Trying not to derail the thread too much |
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
Okay, let's look at survivability advantage versus damage advantage shall we?
Assuming both a scrapper and a tank are at their respective caps on everything, and are both softcapped: the following applies:
Consider both ATs fighting a single enemy that deals 1,000 damage per hit.
Now, if both ATs are at their caps on both resistance and HP it goes like this:
The scrapper has 75% resistance and 2409 HP. The scrapper will take 250 damage per hit, and it will take 10 hits to kill him.
The tank has 90% resistance and 3512 HP. The tank will take 100 damage per hit, and it will take 36 hits to kill him.
Since both are softcapped, we can assume they will take the same number of hits over a long enough period of time.
That gives the tank a whopping 260% survivability advantage over the scrapper. That advantage skews even further in the tank's favor when you consider that every tick of regeneration will be giving the tank more HP back due to their higher HP cap.
Now, on the damage side of things:
Both are using the same attack that deals 100 base damage (I know nothing hits that hard, but it makes the math easier to use a round number)
The scrapper will deal 112.5 damage with that attack due to it's damage modifier of 1.125
The tank on the other hand, will deal 80 damage with that attack due to it's modifier of .8.
Now, if both ATs are at their damage cap that changes to 562.5 damage for the scrapper and 320 damage for the tank.
Now, the tank is capable of keeping a 20% resistance debuff on a target at all times as an inherent ability. That changes the tank's damage to 384 per attack.
Now, lets say that enemy they are fighting has 10,000 HP.
It will take the scrapper 18 attacks to defeat that enemy. BUT, that scrapper can only take 10 hits himself before he is dead.
It will take the tank 27 attacks to defeat the same enemy. The tank, on the other hand can take 36 hits before he is dead.
What that means is, if you only consider the damage caps compared to the resistance caps, the tanker has a HUGE advantage. It will take that tank 50% longer to kill the enemy in question, while at the same time the same tank will survive 260% longer than the scrapper.
Since the scrapper will take more hits to defeat his opponent than he can take, while the tank can take more than it will take him.....the tank will win that fight, while the scrapper will die.
In a situation where defense is not a factor, whether it is because it is equal betwen tank and scrapper or because there is none, the higher resistance and HP caps give the tank a MUCH larger advantage in survivability than the scrapper gets in damage output.
Numbers don't lie.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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I know I was Just trying to say how silly it is becoming this talk is becoming.
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Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
The thread has derailed quite a bit, that's true.
However Mauk's build IS about Tankers. Johnny keeps spouting, endlessly, his nonsense point about Brutes "only having 10% less max HP" He likes to say that because it makes all brutes sound much more resilient than they are. Its his way of constantly twisting information to suit his agenda. When the reality is only Stone and Invuln (and eventually regen most likely) can currently even get to the Brute HP cap, and that will require some heavy build sacrifices that are not as dramatic or even required on the Tanker. Look at Mauk's Build. He has focused on high softcapped defenses, has a good deal of +HP bonuses and yet has 2950 HP or so vs. Tanker Invuln builds that can sit at 3500 and he sacrificed a fair amount of recharge as well as 2 AoE attacks to get there (Which is a decrease in offense). This is not the "only 10% less max HP" that Johnny keeps ranting about. It also ignores, repeatedly, the inconveniently significant Base Defense and Base Resistance advantages of the tanker. An solid Invuln Tanker build can get to 90% SM/L Res, and sit 3500 HP with DP running. Its also easier to get DP perma, as Tankers have more starting DEF to work off of to hit softcap and can focus on more Rech, as well as +HP bonuses to help them cap. |
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Technically, according to Johnny's Fallacy where Brutes and Scrappers are perpetually perma-defense capped, perma-res capped and perma-damage capped FA & SD Tankers are clearly the supreme powersets for the Tanker as they do more damage and are equally as survivable as an Invuln or Stone.|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
In a situation where defense is not a factor, whether it is because it is equal betwen tank and scrapper or because there is none, the higher resistance and HP caps give the tank a MUCH larger advantage in survivability than the scrapper gets in damage output.
Numbers don't lie. |
I mean, FA is always capped at 3500 HP & 90% resistance to all right?
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What Johnny is saying is that scrappers' 50% damage advantage over tanks should be reduced, while the tanks' 260% mitigation advantage remains unchanged. |
Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
Technically, according to Johnny's Fallacy where Brutes and Scrappers are perpetually perma-defense capped, perma-res capped and perma-damage capped FA & SD Tankers are clearly the supreme powersets for the Tanker as they do more damage and are equally as survivable as an Invuln or Stone.
I mean, FA is always capped at 3500 HP & 90% resistance to all right? |
Seriously, that is the most asinine thing I've read on these forums in at least a couple months.
If anything, tanks need to be nerfed in order to bring them closer to fair.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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Whoa|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
If anything, tanks need to be nerfed in order to bring them closer to fair. |
Lets not give the devs an idea here
I dont really know what to say
Electric Armour and the Soft cap
Electric Armour and the 1st 20 levels
Thundra Knight
click here for You want the best TANK!? I'll let you decicde!
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I am not, in any way, advocating that tanks should be nerfed. |
Originally Posted by untoldhero
Whoa
Lets not give the devs an idea here |
It just surprised me exactly how much of a mitigation advantage tanks really have when compared to a scrapper, assuming both ATs are sitting at their respective caps in identical circumstances.
After running the numbers and seeing that scrappers do 150% of the damage of a tank while tanks have 360% the survivability of a scrapper, suddenly giving scrappers a small boost to their resistance cap seems more reasonable than it originally did.
For the record: If you include Lore pets and Reactive Interface damage, that comparison skews even more in the tanks favor.
Since all the Incarnate powers have the same values across all ATs, the fact that the tank is keeping a permanent 20% resistance debuff on it's opponent while the scrapper is not means the tank's Lore and Interface will deal more damage than the scrapper's.
It's not a huge difference, but it does reduce the scrapper's damage advantage, while not affecting the tank's mitigation advantage in the slightest.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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Yes, let's apply 2 different standards when computing comparisons, that's fair.
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Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
What Johnny is saying is that scrappers' 50% damage advantage over tanks should be reduced, while the tanks' 260% mitigation advantage remains unchanged.
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Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
"They called me crazy�they called me insane�THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right."
- Megavolt - Darkwing Duck
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1) Seriously, that toon does not need any more mitigation. |
Originally Posted by untoldhero
Solid build, but i think if you add eviscerate and shockwave you would get better mitigation, those are 90' arc cone attacks and shockwave does knock back, a handy tool... Jump behind the foes and boom shock wave them straight into the team wich hopfully is unloading AoE carnage at them.
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In a crowd it'll be up around incarnate defense caps, it has enough DDR and resists to take the edge off any hits, Unstoppable hard caps it vs the universe and can be up half the time and with the regen incarnate power is actually not so bad, it has 30+ hp/sec passive +regen, etc, etc, etc. 2) Running focus, followup, spin is pretty much seamless, where you gonna stick another attack?
Yes, eviscerate is big damage, but so is spin and spin doesn't require aiming. Shockwave is anathema to this build: You WANT them close, to fuel invincibility and evaporate in the spin-velope. Focus is a ranged attack to draw in moar victims and provides a smidgeon of knockdown to serve as more mitigation against things like Dark Ring Mistresses.Do other things do more damage? Sure, but nothing else does that damage and has that amount of toughness.
....
Dammit, now I wanna level that toon out. Grrr.....
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(shrug)|
Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
But you do keep making claims.
You repeatedly enter threads and say things like how much of BEAST this is or how much better Brutes are. Except I have a Claws/Invuln Brute. I have one that is not too dissimilar to the one you've posted and I don't think its as good as you are making it out to be. Its solid, but I don't think I would rave about its performance either. |
Your opinions are your own.
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When people say Brutes are beasts, the expected notion is that it is doing near Scrapper Damage with Tanker Survivability. I think your build looks very survivable, but I don't think it looks like it will be doing a lot of damage. And it certainly isn't as survivable as an Invuln Tanker. |
As the proud owner of a tooled-up inv/ax, you better believe it's not.
However: The tank is just incredible overkill. The brute has waaaay more durability than anything needs for anything in the game. I've seen multiple scrapper builds herd the Patrons and then tank LR with team buffs, and scrappers are not nearly as tough as brutes, never mind tanks.
Should the Dev's have harder content to make tanks more attractive? I'd call that a yes, IF the rewards for said content were worth it.
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| Dull Pain in your build is not perma, even with Hasten Running. |
But even if it isn't, a few seconds gap has never been an issue for me.
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| You have 2950 or so Hp which is very respectable, but an Invuln Tanker can hit 3500 (as a note, I find it difficult to hit more than 3K on an Invuln Brute and meet rech and def requirements, so I think your build did well on the HP front). |
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The tanker has higher resistances, will be capped vs. SM/L damage res and can get to 3500 HP. Without at least some math, or better yet an actual pylon test, how do you know you are doing Scrapper Damage? |
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Look at Mauk's Build. He has focused on high softcapped defenses, has a good deal of +HP bonuses and yet has 2950 HP or so vs. Tanker Invuln builds that can sit at 3500 and he sacrificed a fair amount of recharge as well as 2 AoE attacks to get there (Which is a decrease in offense). |
Also, it's prolly more fair to compare this build against scrappers than tanks: It does roughly equal to scrapper damages but is way, WAY more durable. It's 500 hp above scrapper cap and has access to LOTS more resists. Unless the Dev's start putting in much nastier baddies, it's 'tough enough.'
I'm sure /SR tanks will be effective though I doubt they will be overtaking /inv, /wp or even /ela when you take into account io's and incarnates.
Just doesn't seem that impressive to me when and /Inv pimped out can pretty much do every thing and more.
So what's so awesome other than the concept and being very strong just off so's?
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that is what im looking forward to, an So'd soft-capped tank that i can build for more dmg and still be reasonably cheap
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Originally Posted by Delerious
I'm sure /SR tanks will be effective though I doubt they will be overtaking /inv, /wp or even /ela when you take into account io's and incarnates.
Just doesn't seem that impressive to me when and /Inv pimped out can pretty much do every thing and more. So what's so awesome other than the concept and being very strong just off so's? |
I dont really know what to say
Electric Armour and the Soft cap
Electric Armour and the 1st 20 levels
Thundra Knight
click here for You want the best TANK!? I'll let you decicde!
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This is pretty much my expectation of it as well. |
Originally Posted by Delerious
I'm sure /SR tanks will be effective though I doubt they will be overtaking /inv, /wp or even /ela when you take into account io's and incarnates.
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The problems experienced by defense based sets will exist with SR, but SR has fewer tools to alleviate those problems. There will be times an SR tank will be awesome, and other times where you'll wish you'd brought ANY other tank.
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| So what's so awesome other than the concept and being very strong just off so's? |
It will be nearly as tough as your Invuln in most situations, and it will have massive recharge and good regen to boot.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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Maybe this is a sign the devs are going to fix Quartzes!
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Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
The problems experienced by defense based sets will exist with SR, but SR has fewer tools to alleviate those problems. There will be times an SR tank will be awesome, and other times where you'll wish you'd brought ANY other tank.
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Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
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Originally Posted by Delerious
I'm sure /SR tanks will be effective though I doubt they will be overtaking /inv, /wp or even /ela when you take into account io's and incarnates.
Just doesn't seem that impressive to me when and /Inv pimped out can pretty much do every thing and more. So what's so awesome other than the concept and being very strong just off so's? |
I think that is basically it -- compared to other "SO only" builds it will be very competitive with the other sets, at a fairly low level (given brute power choice progression)
But in the heavily IO'd world it may not be as awesome as Invul or WP with the layered protection.
Still - it will do a great job against the 59% "new soft cap"
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Someone mentioned DE Quartzes ... yeah those will be horrible for SR tankers. They make my SR scrapper suddenly feel like a blapper.
Having another day to think about it I do think an /sr tank would be pretty nice.
Thanks to the higher defense values I wouldn't be surprised if an /SR tanker with the base toggles, combat jumping, weave, maneuvers and a steadfast +def io is sitting very close to incarnate soft caps. That is pretty impressive.
Then you build for recharge and hp and I could see an /SR tank with:
over Incarnate soft capped defenses AT ALL times
2400-2600hp(could be higher than this I don't know)
Defense would never be an issue. You now have resistance to look at and healing. Imo barrier on top of that much defense with that much hp and scaling resists is a waste. Use t4 rebirth with the spiritual alpha and you got a +1k hp heal every 2 minutes and regening 75 or more hp perma.
That would be pretty leet.
I know my brute is uber on pretty much anything under incarnate level content and even on incarnate without being buffed feels pretty uber except for pulling in BAF un-buffed and when running around the labs/warehouse without buffs. During those times without having alot of mobs always around to bring defenses close to incarnate soft cap I start getting hit more often than I would like. I've only died once running lam in the last 5 or 6 times, but I've had several close calls.
I could see a pimped out /SR tanker running through those labs/warehouse while whistling sweet home alabama and sippin on a mocha.
That said I still think a pimped out /inv, /wp, /ela, /dark will all be tougher thanks to resists and heals allowing for better layering of mitigation. THAT said I'm starting to think that it doesn't matter because a tank with +60% defense to all and +2500hp with a rebirth destiny is going to be stupid hard to kill regardless whether those other primaries are a wee bit stronger in some ultra rare uber leet scenario.
.
Oh wait? Could it possibly be that tanks actually do have a survivability advantage or is it the fact that tanks shine when it comes to controlling aggro, all at the cost of a mere100% less dmg cap? I mean come on mate, seriously whats the point of fixing somthing that isnt broken... And on top of that you have to target others by discriminating thier integrity.
I dont really know what to say
Electric Armour and the Soft cap
Electric Armour and the 1st 20 levels
Thundra Knight
click here for You want the best TANK!? I'll let you decicde!