Just in: new Tank powersets

Thank you.

I care about the Tankers I've rolled as well as the Brutes and Scrappers I've rolled. And I don't think it's very FUN hitting the wall with my Tanker even before the Incarnate system has really begun while Brutes and Scrappers have it made.


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Oh, so now your argument is only that Tankers should have a higher damage cap? Fine, I will agree to that.

I'm not trying to deny it because there IS nothing wrong with it. Those 3 ATs are designed to do completely different things. A scrapper is not meant to hold agro, a tank is not meant to be a primary damage dealer on a team.

You cannot balance ATs by how they perform at their respective caps. You just can't. It is not fair to those players who will never reach those caps for whatever reason.

You can go on and on and on about how your IOed out the wazoo brute outperforms your IOed out the wazoo tank.

Tell me, why should the players who are playing the game using SOs give a flying crap how your characters perform using enhancements they will probably never have?

And why do you think it's fair that those players should suffer because YOU want ATs to be balanced by their performance at the absolute peak of their abilities? You want the game to be balanced around how ATs perform when fully IOed with all their Incarnate abilities. That is NOT AT ALL FAIR TO THE PEOPLE WHO DON'T HAVE THOSE THINGS.

Pfft. The funny thing is, you actually believe that load of manure. Let's call it what it REALLY is shall we?

You think YOUR little min/maxed toys should be on top, simply because they're YOURS. You don't care in the slightest about having a balanced game, you just want YOUR characters to be more powerful than everything else. I'd be willing to be that you don't care even a little bit about other people's tanks, you just want YOURS to be the toughest, hardest hitting, most awesome things in the game.

Again, if this is such a HUGE problem, why are you the ONLY PERSON WHINING ABOUT IT ALL THE DAMN TIME? Whenever I see a thread title having anything to do with low tanker damage, I look down and sure enough, your name is there. Every time. If tanker performance is so bad compared to other ATs, why aren't there more people complaining like you are? And you can't tell me they gave up on it, people on these forums never give up on anything if they really feel there is a problem with it.

Really? I'm arguing that they're fine, and I have never soloed a TF, and I've never soloed a pylon in ANY time, let alone less than 4 minutes.

Why am I arguing that they're fine? Because I understand something you clearly don't. The game is not, and should not be balanced around how awesome you can make things with all the best IOs and Incarnate abilities. It is balanced around how your characters perform with the most basic enhancements available, because anything else would be colossally unfair to the people who can't get, or aren't inclined to get those things.

Funny. YOUR tankers deserve to be offensively awesome. No mention of anyone else's tankers to be found anywhere in your entire post.

It's pretty clear that this is all stemming from your own selfish sense of self-entitlement. You just can't stand that there might be someone out there better than you, can you?

All this rage over a video game. It deserves the scorn it is getting.

The game is balanced around SOs, and it is balanced around certain ATs having certain roles to fill on a team. It has been that way since day 1, and it will continue to be that way in the future.

Don't like it? Tough.

Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately.

Why should the players who are playing the game using SOs mind if the Tanker damage cap was increased?

Why do you think they would suffer?

Except in the very passage you quoted.




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Now let's not assume everyone is damage capped, and take into consideration that the team benefits from bruising as well.

Interesting since there seem to be lot of tanks out there and even a special day just for tanks IE Tanker Tuesday. I do not see a day for any other ATs other then brutes on Justice. I have been to that one and there seem to be more people willing to do Tanker Tuesday then Brutal Monday on Justice. Also so I do not see how you can say that Brutes and Scrappers are more popular then Tanks. I know lot of people who play mostly tanks then any other ATs out there. Heck I will admit it I am one of them. I have a Tank on every server as far as the other ATs I do not. Not to mention I out of all my level 50s I have more Tanks that level then any other.

All it would likely take is a damage boosting Destiny ability to be added and then yes, we can assume everyone will be damage capped.




Bruising only affects a single target. Brutes are doing 1.52 times the damage of Tankers with those numbers, yet Tanker HP cap is only like 1.1 times higher, and all the other caps are the same.


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(shrug)

So what?

The team benefits from hueg broot SMASH just as much (way more) than they do from tanker bruising, becuz in a team, I promise you, there are waaaay more debuffs flying than the tank's tier 1 itch-scratcher.

I'm addressing performance envelopes.

Because thats where these idiotic numbers arguments always wind up.

Brutes have nearly equal (can be better, wanna look hard at fire?) damage to scraps and stalkers, and also get waaaay more hitpoints AND have 90 percent resist caps.

If you care about that crap, BRUTES ARE BETTER.

You can wriggle all you want, the facts are plain.

However, I can't really stand brutes. I play mostly scraps and tanks.

Why?

Ehn, I guess I'm just dumb.

Originally Posted by PapaSlade Rangle's right....this is fun.

Scrappers and Brutes don't need gimmick day to drum up popularity and morale.



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I have been on may teams that gets more people asking if they can bring a tank more then someone asking to bring a scrapper, or brute. Heck last night I did a posi with 3 tanks on team and NO BRUTE, 1 scrapper, 1 mm and 3 blasters. I did 2 morts with NO BRUTES OR SCRAPPERS, but a few tanks.

I see a lot of tanks, too.

That's because, tanks are cool, and scrappers got STYLE.

All brutes have is SMASH.

Not the case in AV fights. 20% -res does more than 80 or so extra DPS for total team DPS, in most team situations.

Let's assume the team as a whole has 1000 DPS and 80% -res. If you add 80 DPS the team's total damage becomes 1080*1.8=1944. If you add 20% -res the team DPS becomes 1000*2=2000. This is all assuming the team has significant resistance debuffing going on, which in my experience isn't common. In the meanwhile extra damage got more common with things like Judgement and Lore.

Originally Posted by PapaSlade Rangle's right....this is fun.

That would be ridiculous.



Keep ignoring it if you want (you will, you're incapable of addressing it) but destiny level buffs & team buffs is not some 24/7 permanent guarantee.



And it completely ignores all of the other time NOT spent at those caps.


We get it, you want Tankers to do as much Damage as Brutes and probably Scrappers while having several orders magnitude better mitigation than them.

Keep wasting your breath, I don't want you to shut up like the others do.

I want you to keep wasting your time posting this, because your arguments are so flawed and ignore so many relevant points as to be embarrassing.




If tanker mitigation and tanker taunting ability is not important to you, than it is not the AT for you.



Are you willing to accept a massive nerf to Tanker mitigation levels to gain more damage?

Because that's exactly what Brutes got.




Resistance Caps are empty unless you are buffed.

You are not always buffed, and you are not always buffed to your resistance caps.






Every time you say this, I'll just say that they are not always at their caps.

Because they aren't.



Yeah that's right, you deserve more offense without being willing to give up any mitigation at all.

You never mention it, not once.


Keep pushin for the Tanker Mitigation Nerf JB. I hope you get it.


Tanker mitigation can be nerfed, and then your Tankers can have a better offense.


Let me know when you are willing to put your money where your big mouth is and start calling for the mitigation nerfs that would be required to give Tankers better offense.

Since, according to you, you can just be invincible all the time anyway on Brute & Scrapper numbers because they are buffed around the clock to their caps, I'm assuming that would be perfectly acceptable to you.


Keep dodging this part of the issue, and keep looking like a fool

If the primary thing that mattered was maximally buffed numbers then blasters would be just a fraction under scrappers in offense and survivability, but with generally more AoE. However, the truth is that when actually played by our actual subscriber base, the difference in performance between the two is so far apart in practice they aren't even in the same zip code.

The vast overwhelming majority of the playerbase, i.e. the people the devs primarily make the game for, are not playing in saturated buff conditions. In those conditions, blasters die, healing helps, and there's a huge difference between brutes and tankers.

It appears I missed the exit to the alternate universe where you don't have a blatant bias for Scrappers. Over there Incarnate Brutes and Scrappers still get Rebirth Destiny and cap their resistances with Barrier every 120 seconds, but Tankers aren't throttled for damage all of the time just for having 10% more max HP than a Brute.


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Sucks, doesn't it? Unfortunately, you ended up in the one where people think you're crazy and the devs don't listen to you. Although, statistically speaking I think you could pick a random universe and that would still likely be true.

Whatcha talking about Willis?

Frankly I'd be happy if it wasn't impressive, allows only the dedicated to take it on. I've never been overly impressed with ice melee but ice has its advantages. Maybe porting it to the tank will dumb it down to the point where general pop feel sorry and invite you to their teams. Ice/MA sounds like a sick combo now that I think of it, of course so would stone/ma. (I have a feeling stone/MA will be like a stone/claws only in a test phase)

Let me be straightforward about this up front: I mostly play "squishy" ATs; my primary concern in all this is far less about how much damage the durable ATs do, as how well they can actually protect the less durable ones. In my personal opinion, I die way too often on iTrials; I'd like to see better tanking tools given to someone.

I actually agree in a *very* limited sense with Johnny Butane; in a heavily-buffed iTrial setting, Tankers don't seem to be substantially more durable *in practice* while probably doing less damage. IMO that's OK... what they should be doing is tanking better, so that the league as a whole performs at a higher level. The obvious solution to me would be to give Tankers a higher aggro cap.

A substantial problem on the iTrials, especially Keyes, is some Vicki coming along and spleening me (for ~2/3 my max HP when I've just lost ~1/2 my max HP to a pulse, for instance). My suspicion is that given the hordes of enemies, arriving reinforcements, and general positional confusion, the existing aggro caps aren't doing a very good job of reliably "touching" the enemies.

Individual aggro levels are a bit less of a concern... when I am doing enough damage to Marauder to cause him to turn on me, or get double-ringed fighting Siege, I can back off a bit on the attacks, and at some level it's confirmation that I'm doing my job (damage) well. The missile blast or assassin strike from some IDF or Warworks reinforcement who has never been affected by a tank is far more a concern, and far more frustrating.

To summarize:
* Give Tankers (the AT) a higher max aggro than any other AT

* Give them at least one improved or new tool for getting there (PunchVoke improvements are an obvious place to look, but I'm not an expert here)

* This allows their higher theoretical durability to be actually useful, as they will be being attacked by more foes

* This allows them to shine as clearly better at doing their primary conceptual job, tanking, than other ATs

* This easily fits withing the conceptual moral side of things; Brutes, as villains, want aggro merely for personal performance reasons; Tankers, as heroes, want aggro so as to be able to protect those weaker than themselves. It's both logical and reasonable for Tankers to have "wider" aggro than any other AT, even if some can approach it in "depth".

* This contributes substantially to overall team performance... dead blasters (etc.) aren't supplying DPS, and blasters (etc.) who have to clock back DPS to avoid death / sequestration aren't supplying as much as they could. The overall increase in team (league) DPS is substantially more than would be reasonable to actually give to Tankers directly, even if one thought that giving them any was a good idea in the first place (I'm not convinced).

It appears you missed this:



Let me know when you're ready to talk Tanker nerfs so they can have a better offense, since in your own repeated assertion there is nothing in this game that requires their Mitigation.



Oh, don't worry Johnny.

We're only starting with their HP.

First we're going to reduce their base DEF numbers by 25%.

Then, we will reduce their Resistances by 25%.


Remember, they don't actually need these due to the Incarnate system, and because they can get perma-buffed to their caps all the time.

Nor do those magnify their extra HP.




Oh, about those "10% HP"


I don't want you to miss anything, because if we don't reduce their HP properly then they won't be able to do damage to be "god-like".


You should go to PARAGON WIKI, it's awesome.


It will show you how to properly calculate Tanker HP.

Maybe you can help me, because I keep getting 1874 HP base for the Tanker, and 1499 for the Brute.


That can't be right though, because that means the Brute has 20% less than the Tanker. I'm not very good at maths though.




Question for the smart people.

What is the value of an extra 20% HP protected by an extra 25% DEF and then an extra 25% resistance and supported by an extra 20% Regeneration?

Hmmm.

I have been advocating for a while to raise tanker resist caps by 3 percent, to 93. This would serve, in my humble opinion, to differentiate tanker survivability 'enough' to make the AT clearly the better choice in some situations, which is really all most folks want, I believe.

This idea.... I've punted this notion around a bit, and the main down-side, as far as I can tell, is that it can slaughter lowby tanks if not done gently.

IF the Devs were to do this, I would suggest they raise tankers aggro caps by 5 every ten levels. Thus, 1-10, 17; 11-20, 22; 21-30, 27; 31-40, 32; 41-50, 37.

This would, in my mind, COMPLETELY change how Tankers are viewed, while absolutely not being a return to the bad old days of zone-herding.

Also, as far as people whining about tankers being able to hold too much aggro, how much aggro can a MM hold? Or any pet class? Am I incorrect in thinking it is a full 17 baddies per pet?

If I am correct, then a MM can take aggro on what, 85 bad guys in theory? (boggle)

Maybe I am wrong here....