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Why wouldn't u? Rage just takes off some end not enough to get on killed.
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Originally Posted by zeldo
I'm just wondering if I can get a SR's defense high enough (without Elude) that the Rage crash won't get him killed.
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Yes, you can. My SS/SR brute never had any issues with it, except for the end cost.
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Originally Posted by LSK
Why wouldn't u? Rage just takes off some end not enough to get on killed.
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Willpower has more passive regen than Regen does. Who thought that was a good idea?
Can we get a fix for Energy Melee instead of more new sets?
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One quick point. If you can get Rage double stacked you won't lose any defense. You will get the endurance ding, and will have limited dmg for 10 seconds. You can work around the -dmg by using vet and temp powers as those aren't effected by the rage crash -dmg.
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Originally Posted by zeldo
I'm just wondering if I can get a SR's defense high enough (without Elude) that the Rage crash won't get him killed.
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Throwing darts at the board to see if something sticks.....
Come show your resolve and fight my brute!
Tanks: Gauntlet, the streak breaker and you!
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Originally Posted by PapaSlade
Rangle's right....this is fun.
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I have never had any problem with rage crash on any of my SS either brute or tank.
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Originally Posted by Gobbledygook
Yes, you can. My SS/SR brute never had any issues with it, except for the end cost.
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I didn't suggest people would stop playing tankers, obviously if you want a tanker you'll have one. I thought the reason to play them has diminished since going rogue and now incarnates. That being, a Tanker's reson d'etre was a mob distraction on legs, you be the punch bag so your fellow heroes (or villains) can bomb the mobs to heck and back. So you have huge capacity to take that thumping.|
Originally Posted by Finduilas
I've been playing since CoV launched, and ever since Brutes were introduced people have predicted that players would abandon Tanks wholesale to play Brutes. Didn't happen when CoV launched, and it didn't happen when side-switching was allowed as it was again predicted.
Brutes have had access to most Tank primaries and secondaries for years, why do you think that people will suddenly stop playing Tankers NOW? I'll believe it when I see it. |
Brutes are capable of doing just that without the damage limitations. They can't aggro as good as a Tanker for sure, but they are a more than adequate substitute, and offer scrapper level damage output when properly furied, and tougher.
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That's an amazing single anecdote that doesn't prove anything.|
Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
Now, post-side switching, I see way more Brutes than Tankers, especially in trials. The last trial I was on had six Brutes, four Scrappers and one Tanker. It was dubbed Team Melee.
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Here's my equally useless anecdote.
I've been on countless BAFs & Lambdas that have had anywhere from 3 to 6 Tankers on them.
Some of them only had 1 or 2 Scrappers or Brutes and in some cases, none!!
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The devs vastly over estimated how compelling just being a walking distraction was. They had no business creating an AT with power sets like super strength and making them hit like little girls. All for the dubious privilege of being a decoy for the cooler ATs.|
Originally Posted by BigBoss Eyepatch
I thought the reason to play them has diminished since going rogue and now incarnates. That being, a Tanker's reson d'etre was a mob distraction on legs, you be the punch bag so your fellow heroes (or villains) can bomb the mobs to heck and back. So you have huge capacity to take that thumping.
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Worse was for them to admit that mistake, say they were creating a damage mechanic for Tankers, one that became Fury, but then waffle over it and then later give it to Brutes just to sell boxes of CoV.
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| Brutes are capable of doing just that without the damage limitations. They can't aggro as good as a Tanker for sure |
This is the bottom line for me:
I have a well built Tanker and an equally well built Brute. I went through the grind of fully IOing both and have finished Incarnating the Tanker to the current limits of the system.
The Tanker benefits very little from pursuing more survivability with the Incarnate system. But at the same time, he's already hitting his head on the damage cap for the AT.
I didn't specifically built this Tanker for a lot more damage. I took a 'balanced' approach to building both him and the Brute. But half way through the Incarnate system, already I'm up against the frigging brick wall of the cap.
The Brute on the other hand, has the freedom to go much further in either direction, offensively or defensively. He simply doesn't have the hard limitations force on him that the Tanker does. His theoretical survivability is a bit lower, but there's NOTHING in the game where that little bit less matters. Even if there was, it'd be a tiny tiny percent. When all is said and done, a Brute pushing his limits BLOWS AWAY a Tanker at their limits for just about ANYTHING in the game.
And that is the whole problem. My Tanker is now shelved because the way things are currently, I'm not allowed to reasonably grow him in power very much beyond where he's at now, but the Brute is just going to keep getting better and better, no matter what Incarnate stuff he has slotted. I look at my Tanker at his zenith hitting the cap and watch Brutes go way beyond and think "Well, this is it for a 'god-like' Tanker. So disappoint." No matter how much work I put in, the system is screwing the Tanker and favoring the Brute
That. Isn't. Right.
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I'd like it to feel like a super hero comic, myself. Like the one with that guy who is nigh invulnerable and still manages to hit harder than a sleepy kitten. |
Originally Posted by BrandX
Sounds like you want to turn this game into a generic fantasy MMO setting, when I'd rather keep it to feeling like a super hero comic
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Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
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Unless they nerf the set or make any type of changes to the Set, Like what they doing to Energy Aura in Issue 21.
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Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
I can't count the number of times that I was told that tanks would NEVER get super reflexes because it would be ridiculously overpowered and far too easy to softcap.
So I'll throw in a nice HAAAAha. |
Never play another NcSoft game, If you feel pride for our game, then it as well, I Superratz am Proud of all of you Coh people, Love, Friendship will last for a lifetime.
Global:@Greenflame Ratz
Main Toons:Super Ratz, Burning B Radical, Green Flame Avenger, Tunnel Ratz, Alex Magnus
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You can have that with a Brute.|
Originally Posted by Tenzhi
I'd like it to feel like a super hero comic, myself. Like the one with that guy who is nigh invulnerable and still manages to hit harder than a sleepy kitten.
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Of course, if you care about fairness or have vested interest in Tankers and super strong comic characters who aren't the Hulk, you may have the same problem as me.
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Brutes aren't tough enough, in my experience. In my experience, IO set bonuses and Incarnate slots are a tantalizing pipe dream. I'm looking forward to Super Reflexes just because I might finally be able to have a character at the mythical defense soft cap (outside of PFF).
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Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
You can have that with a Brute.
Of course, if you care about fairness or have vested interest in Tankers and super strong comic characters who aren't the Hulk, you may have the same problem as me. . |
Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
Fine.
Reduce Tankers to the same Base Values as Scrappers and Brutes and increase their damage.
Then, instead of being able to focus your slotting on things like recharge and additional damage dealing ability, you'll have to focus your slotting on trying to achieve the same survivability Tankers have NOW.
You say it's not fair to let brutes do more damage while having nearly the same survivability.
It's also not fair to give tanks nearly the same damage when obtaining that survivability is trivial for them.
Look at Shield Defense as an example. How much IO slotting does a brute have to do to get to the softcap compared to a tank?
A Shield Defense tank can hit the soft cap using pool powers and ONE IO (Steadfast Res/Def)
You slot a brute exactly the same and you're going to end up about 10-12% short of the soft cap. A brute needs to spend much more of their slotting chasing defense bonuses than a tank does, because of the difference in base values. Resistance is the same. A resistance based brute will end up nearly 20% lower than a tank of the same set. And that's a difference you can't make up with IOs.
I'm reading your statement as saying that Tanks should do a similar amount of damage as brutes, while at the same time getting more survivability than them just as easily as they do now.
Not. Gonna. Happen.
Are you prepared to give up the Tanker's better base values on survivability powers in return for more damage? Because that's what Scrappers and Brutes gave up.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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They don't give up much. I don't see Brutes and Scrappers dropping dead left and right. They solo better than anyone, and on teams they are buffed out the whazoo.|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
Because that's what Scrappers and Brutes gave up.
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When you add Barrier and Rebirth Destiny into the mix, those lower base values suddenly don't mean as much. When you introduce team buffs, they mean even less. It becomes about caps, and Brutes get the same resistance cap as Tankers.
On a Tanker, you don't need the Incarnate system to hit your max offense. A single Kin can do it. SS get very close just on their own.
You're arguing that it's OK for Brutes to have much higher damage and damage caps than Tankers, but the same resistance caps, and slightly lower HP caps. It's not OK.
Can you even tell me where the HP cap difference would be noticeable? On a trial where there's already so much team buffs and heals flying around?
It's not OK for Tankers to have low damage and low damage caps when Brutes and Scrappers can be built, healed or buffed so much, either by teams or the Incarnate system, so that their lower survivability doesn't affect them while Tankers are up against the offense cap that's a lot closer for them.
When all is said and done, a Brute buffed to his limits, by any means, is superior to a Tanker buffed to his limits. That isn't right.
I'd even wager a Scrapper buffed to his limits is still superior to a Tanker at his limits for almost anything in the game. That also isn't right.
The more power we're given on our own and on teams via the Incarnate system, the more this becomes a problem. The disparity is only going to get worse the higher Brutes and Scrappers are allowed to get over the immortality line
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Just to make my position here more clear, Im not saying I want less resistance and defence for tankers for the sake of more damage, I don't feel that way, what I was saying is, with enough effort, and patience, and inf! A brute can do everything a tanker can, which to me could potentially make the tanker somewhat redundant and thus make it harder for us tanker players to get groups that was my worry / paranoud delusions. 
In terms of tanker damage output though...
Why not just do the same thing to tankers via Gauntlet that Defenders have via Vigilance?
When a tanker is solo, give em a 10% damage boost via gauntlet. They already have bruising for 20% additional damage. So that comes to a nice round 30%, just like a solo Defender.
On a team, a tanker is not required to do damage 9 times out of 10. Just be a moving distraction. So in cases like that you don't need super-damage. And thus, you lost the 10% damage boost afforded you.
Obviously if you set yourself to x8 having 10% extra damage won't matter zilch if your tanker can't handle the pounding in the first place. So it won't make them a farmers choice.
I guess the flip side is, it will make super strength tankers quite a power house. 80% from rage, plus on my Invul / SS I got about 15 or 16% via set bonuses, so theoretically Im already hitting for almost double damage, when you factor bruising in, that's nearly 120% more damage already, which may not be as good as a scrapper, but damn, its impressive IMHO (This is if I am interpreting the numbers right)
Back when Scrappers and tankers didnt share powersets - there was some of what Johnny Butane is saying .. sort of.
In that Tanker Melee sets had slower recharge than Scrappers, which gave their attack powers higher damage.
Slow, high damage attacks -- just like the original game manual said. Knockout blow being probably the poster child, and of course Footstomp. Although Stone Melee more representative throughout the set.
But that was before recharge let you string together uninterupted attack chains, before animation time mattered, before IOs, etc.
When animation time became the real driver for top end DPS .. everything went off the rails. Castle even showed he really doesn't "get that" based on how he put together Claws for Brutes. Since he followed the old Slower Recharge / more damage idea which now makes it possible to get more from a claws brute than a claws scrapper. (Since the animation times didnt change)
Its too bad that instead of doing less damage per attack.. Tankers instead just animated slower, by whatever amount they needed to to be the "right" amount of DPS compared to scrappers. (animations front loaded for damage of course)
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You seem to be suggesting that the reason people played Tanks is that they had a specific niche that no other AT can fill. I'm not sure that has ever been true, and I'm dead certain that's not the only or even the primary reason why many people play them. |
Originally Posted by BigBoss Eyepatch
I didn't suggest people would stop playing tankers, obviously if you want a tanker you'll have one. I thought the reason to play them has diminished since going rogue and now incarnates. That being, a Tanker's reson d'etre was a mob distraction on legs, you be the punch bag so your fellow heroes (or villains) can bomb the mobs to heck and back. So you have huge capacity to take that thumping.
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| Brutes are capable of doing just that without the damage limitations. They can't aggro as good as a Tanker for sure, but they are a more than adequate substitute, and offer scrapper level damage output when properly furied, and tougher. |
Considering how many build requests I've seen from you in this forum, you still seem to be building Tanks. Why is that, if, as you contend, their raison d'etre is no longer sufficiently distinguishable from that of Brutes? Why do *you* still play them?
My Characters
Knight Court--A CoH Story Complete 2/3/2012
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The problem is that this is about potential. Some Tankers, like Shield/SS, hit their damage cap already. No amount of damage bonus will improve them.|
Originally Posted by BigBoss Eyepatch
Why not just do the same thing to tankers via Gauntlet that Defenders have via Vigilance?
When a tanker is solo, give em a 10% damage boost via gauntlet. They already have bruising for 20% additional damage. So that comes to a nice round 30%, just like a solo Defender. |
Solo, most Brutes do way more damage than a Tanker can possibly do, and they're not exactly dieing constantly from not being as tough. They get even tougher with the Incarnate system. As they grow more powerful, Brutes catch up to Tanker survivability for all practical purposes, but Brute damage remains as far out front, and always will because the Tanker will hit their damage cap.
Unless they raise Tanker damage caps, rather than a damage buff, you'd need something that circumvents the damage cap, like Scrapper Criticals and damage procs. That's bonus damage, but not a damage bonus.
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| On a team, a tanker is not required to do damage 9 times out of 10. Just be a moving distraction. So in cases like that you don't need super-damage. And thus, you lost the 10% damage boost afforded you. |
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The difference there is that Scrappers get 75% damage resistance caps and Brutes get 90%, like Tankers. That generally makes more of a tangible difference in toughness/survivability when buffed between Scrappers and Brutes and than is likely between Brutes and Tankers. |
Originally Posted by Finduilas
Why play a Brute when a Scrapper does as much damage, is almost as tough, and doesn't have to chase a Fury bar? Isn't a Scrapper a "more than adequate substitute" for a Brute? Can't you make that same argument with various AT comparisons in CoH/CoV?
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[EDIT] Checked and fixed Scrapper cap for 75%
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You're missing the point. When it comes to player preferences, the exact differences between the ATs aren't as important as the perceived differences. If a player feels that a Scrapper is "tough enough" and easier to play than a Brute, why bother with a Brute?|
Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
The difference there is that Scrappers get 50% damage resistance caps and Brutes get 90%, like Tankers. That generally makes more of a tangible difference in toughness/survivability when buffed between Scrappers and Brutes and than is likely between Brutes and Tankers.
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People make decisions on what AT they want to play based on many factors, most of which are completely subjective. If you're arguing it's not "fair" that the Tanker damage cap is so low, that's one thing--and good luck persuading the devs of that since you haven't been able to in *how* many years?
But if you're arguing that Tanks' low damage cap will persuade people to stop playing Tanks and play Brutes instead, that's a whole different story, and IMO, doomed to failure unless there's some concrete evidence that it's actually happening to some significant degree. Which, by the way, the devs would have if it existed.
My Characters
Knight Court--A CoH Story Complete 2/3/2012
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Oh, I'm quite aware how player perception works. Stalkers are a living example. But, Tanker caps versus Brutes caps and how the Incarnate system is affecting things is something tangible I can point to.|
Originally Posted by Finduilas
You're missing the point. When it comes to player preferences, the exact differences between the ATs aren't as important as the perceived differences. If a player feels that a Scrapper is "tough enough" and easier to play than a Brute, why bother with a Brute?
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| and good luck persuading the devs of that since you haven't been able to in *how* many years? |
The melee AT situation is brutal to say the least. I can understand them not wanting to upset the cart. But they're going to have to. And I'm not going to stop harping on them about it until they do.
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| that's a whole different story, and IMO, doomed to failure unless there's some concrete evidence that it's actually happening to some significant degree. Which, by the way, the devs would have if it existed. |
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Complete speculation on your part from start to finish. Unfun to whom? I still play my tankers and have fun with them, and many other players do too.|
Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
The devs wouldn't admit that Tankers took a population hit due to side switching or the Incarnate system. Even if they did, they'd deny it's a problem. They'd rather maintain a stable, yet unfair and unfun, status quo than rock the boat and risk a thousand angry Scrapper and Brute enthusiasts going after them. There's nothing new in that; shafting Tankers for the sake of Scrappers and then Brutes has been standard operating procedure for as long as I've been around.
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I wish you and Deus would get together and decide whether the devs are trying to shaft Tanks (as usual) or Brutes (as usual). And if necessary, I'm sure we can find many other forum goers willing to explain that (insert AT here) are the ones REALLY getting the shaft by the devs.
My Characters
Knight Court--A CoH Story Complete 2/3/2012
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Khelds?|
Originally Posted by Finduilas
I'm sure we can find many other forum goers willing to explain that (insert AT here) are the ones REALLY getting the shaft by the devs.
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I agree I have at least 1 tank on each server and I have fun playing them. If you want to complain about a AT getting the shaft look at the Dom who is getting nothing at all while all the other ATs are.
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Originally Posted by Finduilas
Complete speculation on your part from start to finish. Unfun to whom? I still play my tankers and have fun with them, and many other players do too.
I wish you and Deus would get together and decide whether the devs are trying to shaft Tanks (as usual) or Brutes (as usual). And if necessary, I'm sure we can find many other forum goers willing to explain that (insert AT here) are the ones REALLY getting the shaft by the devs. |
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Uh, yeah, it is. For one very simple reason: Tanks are not meant to be primary damage dealers on a team. And they never were meant to be. |
Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
You're arguing that it's OK for Brutes to have much higher damage and damage caps than Tankers, but the same resistance caps, and slightly lower HP caps. It's not OK.
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You don't invite a tank to your team because you want more damage, you invite a tank because you want someone to tank. Expecting a tank to be a primary damage dealer is teh same as expecting it of a defender. That's not what that AT is designed to do.
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| Can you even tell me where the HP cap difference would be noticeable? On a trial where there's already so much team buffs and heals flying around? |
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| It's not OK for Tankers to have low damage and low damage caps when Brutes and Scrappers can be built, healed or buffed so much, either by teams or the Incarnate system, so that their lower survivability doesn't affect them while Tankers are up against the offense cap that's a lot closer for them. |
If you put a tank and a brute in the same situation, and tell them to do the same job, with the exact same amount of incoming damage, the brute will die first. Every. Single. Time.
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| When all is said and done, a Brute buffed to his limits, by any means, is superior to a Tanker buffed to his limits. |
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| I'd even wager a Scrapper buffed to his limits is still superior to a Tanker at his limits for almost anything in the game. |
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| The more power we're given on our own and on teams via the Incarnate system, the more this becomes a problem. The disparity is only going to get worse the higher Brutes and Scrappers are allowed to get over the immortality line[/b] |
Your crusade is not only unbalancing, it is also completely unreasonable within the context of this game. This isn't a comic book, it's a video game. Things need to be balanced against each other in order for it to be fair. Tanks surviving better at the cost of damage output is both balanced, and fair.
If you want tanks to get more damage, they will need to give up some survivability to get it. I can all but guarantee that is NOT going to be a popular move amongst tank players. Especially since you are the only one that really seems to feel this is a huge problem.
I really don't know why I bother trying to get through to you, you're just going to keep whining about how unfair it is that another AT can do something tanks can't, and completely ignoring the fact tanks can do things those other ATs can't.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
I'm just wondering if I can get a SR's defense high enough (without Elude) that the Rage crash won't get him killed.