The last couple of times I did the BAF with my WP/SS tank it got 2 warnings I jump out and wait till the rings are gone jump back in and all of a sudden getting a ring with out attacking. At the same time had a fire tink with there taunt on, and a shield tank with there taunt on and they never got any warnings.
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Shield tanks draw aggro like crazy, you must have had lots of aggro beasts alongside you.
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Originally Posted by LSK
The last couple of times I did the BAF with my WP/SS tank it got 2 warnings I jump out and wait till the rings are gone jump back in and all of a sudden getting a ring with out attacking. At the same time had a fire tink with there taunt on, and a shield tank with there taunt on and they never got any warnings.
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Mains (Freedom) @Auroxis
Auroxis - Emp/Rad/Power Defender Pylon Video Soloing an AV
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Neuropain - Sonic/Mental/Elec Blaster
My DM/Inv Brute might as well have those rings on auto
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The one I haven't quite figured out yet is that sometimes my energy/energy blaster gets ring-locked by one or the other, even when there are lots of sources of taunt around. Of course, my energy blaster runs a very high recharge build, so triple ringing me is almost a complete waste of time for the AVs.
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Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
My DM/Inv Brute might as well have those rings on auto
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I was the only one getting 2 rings the other tanks/brutes did not is what I was saying.
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Originally Posted by Auroxis
Shield tanks draw aggro like crazy, you must have had lots of aggro beasts alongside you.
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Rather than a new power, I'd rather they add an IO that would proc taunt for aura powers. I'd love to put one into Hot Feet and/or Blazing Aura on my blaster.|
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
Yes, they could. I certainly don't have room for it in my build but I could self-nerf in order to get a power to make up for that which exists in the other SR config.
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You could then add the aura to scrapper Evasion, but have it do nothing, unless slotted with the taunt proc IO. That would kind of be odd and I don't see it happening, but I think it would be nifty.
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
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At this point you could delete the entire Brute AT as it would cease to serve any valuable function on a team.|
Originally Posted by Hai Jinx
Pick some midway point and change all the brute auras to that level.
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At some point tankers need to get into their heads that the role of holding aggro is not some sacred, protected position ordained by god given to tankers.
You have every ridiculous advantage given to this AT that you could possibly get to fill this role - learn how to tank and stop nerf calling on brutes after they've already been nerfed at the same time that Tankers got two improvements.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
The one I haven't quite figured out yet is that sometimes my energy/energy blaster gets ring-locked by one or the other, even when there are lots of sources of taunt around. Of course, my energy blaster runs a very high recharge build, so triple ringing me is almost a complete waste of time for the AVs.
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That's easy, a lot of people are really really terrible at this game.
A top end damage dealing build can easily out aggro poorly played Tankers/Brutes with low end/mediocre builds that don't have anything that resembles an optimized attack chain or even a coherent idea of what to do in combat beyond mashing buttons.
My Fire/Rad Corr is a laugh riot in those situations.
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Rebirth at tier 4 is not just a very nice heal on a 2 minute recharge, but the +Regen variety basically lets you permanently enter into a state of ridiculous regenerative capability. I just don't see anything else that's as good in the Destiny slot. But then, my priority as a Tanker is to stay alive under any circumstances. Rebirth basically lets me face endless swarms of +4s. Even with 4 or 5 Elite Bosses aggroed to me (along with more Cimerorans than I could hold aggro on) in an ITF I didn't faceplant. And I'm only at Tier 3 right now. I don't think I'd trade that for a 10 second burst of Hasten-level recharge bonus (yes, followed by decaying 30%, 20%, 10%) ever, unless I planned on farming a lot of relatively weak enemies.|
Originally Posted by UNB0UND_4_LIFE
Just my opinion, but, if as an incarnate tanker I felt I needed or had to take Rebirth for my Destiny slot, then I'd call that "FAIL."
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While it's not "mandatory," I am basically of the opinion that nothing else in the Destiny slot even comes close to being as good as Rebirth +Regen, especially for an Archetype based around survival.
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Wow. What "nerf" other than the one you suspect I called in the post you quoted have I ever called on brutes? |
Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
At this point you could delete the entire Brute AT as it would cease to serve any valuable function on a team.
At some point tankers need to get into their heads that the role of holding aggro is not some sacred, protected position ordained by god given to tankers. You have every ridiculous advantage given to this AT that you could possibly get to fill this role - learn how to tank and stop nerf calling on brutes after they've already been nerfed at the same time that Tankers got two improvements. |
I wasn't calling for a "nerf" anyway. I was suggesting that the Taunt auras of Tankers, Brutes and Scrappers could be normalized for their AT, rather than by powerset. Which I believe was the original intent by giving Tankers higher Mag 4 vs 3 than brutes and scrappers. It just doesn't work because of the set disparities.
As it is I can easily make a scrapper with a better taunt aura than a WP Tanker. Leading to the complaints of scrapper players .. to the point that they like picking sets like /SR and /Regen because they have no taunt aura.
That situation is obviously not ideal. As someone suggested above its probably because they got the decimal point wrong on /WP in the first place and then refused to fix it. From what I understand its even possible a /WP Brute or scrapper has a better effective taunt aura than a WP Tanker - since the to hit debuff is larger on RTTC. And since the taunt duration is so low that makes a large difference.
Taunt auras are obviously something they mean to be part of defense sets for non-stalkers. Otherwise every new and proliferated set wouldn't have one. Also notice Shield didn't get a super weak Taunt Aura like WP, nor did the Brute /SR. Nor would they be adding one to /EA
To summarize I suggest that Scrappers should have the weakest Taunt Auras, Brutes the middle ground, and Tanks the strongest.
How that idea plays with other nerfs/buffs has nothing to do with it. If brutes are over-nerfed or Tanks over-buffed to the point that Brutes *need* to be competitive on taunt auras to Tanks .. then perhaps something else is wrong.
I do not think the idea is necessary to play any AT. It was an idea, that is all.
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I'm sorry for coming off so strong.|
Originally Posted by Hai Jinx
Wow. What "nerf" other than the one you suspect I called in the post you quoted have I ever called on brutes?
I wasn't calling for a "nerf" anyway. I was suggesting that the Taunt auras of Tankers, Brutes and Scrappers could be normalized for their AT, rather than by powerset. Which I believe was the original intent by giving Tankers higher Mag 4 vs 3 than brutes and scrappers. It just doesn't work because of the set disparities. |
It appears you've simply made an error, and made a suggestion based on that error.
There is nothing to normalize.
Brutes have Mag 4 Threat in every single attack, just like Tankers.
They have Mag 4 Threat in every Taunt Aura they have, just like Tankers.
When the changes to EA go live, Brutes will have a Mag 4 Threat component in every single Secondary Powerset available to the AT. (Except WP, which is Mag 3 exactly like the Tanker version)
So suggesting that they suddenly have less Mag Threat, would in fact be a nerf call to the AT.
Tankers have the advantage in that they have Gauntlet. Tankers specialize in mitigation, this does not make them the defacto specialist in holding aggro, nor should they have an Auto-Win level of aggro control.
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Originally Posted by Hai Jinx
To summarize I suggest that Scrappers should have the weakest Taunt Auras, Brutes the middle ground, and Tanks the strongest.
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Having a taunt aura is a prime component of Brute effectiveness and is an important part of the Brute playstyle.
Without the ability to hold aggro, even in the face of a Tanker next to them, the Brute is a second rate Scrapper and has no purpose.
Any Brute that complains they have a taunt aura has chosen the wrong AT (and I've never heard anyone capable of rational thought actually complain about this).
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To go with this the reason they have a taunt and get aggro is not because to hold it, instead it is there for there fury build up to help them better with damage if I am not mistaken.
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Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
I'm sorry for coming off so strong.
It appears you've simply made an error, and made a suggestion based on that error. There is nothing to normalize. Brutes have Mag 4 Threat in every single attack, just like Tankers. They have Mag 4 Threat in every Taunt Aura they have, just like Tankers. When the changes to EA go live, Brutes will have a Mag 4 Threat component in every single Secondary Powerset available to the AT. (Except WP, which is Mag 3 exactly like the Tanker version) So suggesting that they suddenly have less Mag Threat, would in fact be a nerf call to the AT. Tankers have the advantage in that they have Gauntlet. Tankers specialize in mitigation, this does not make them the defacto specialist in holding aggro, nor should they have an Auto-Win level of aggro control. And I'm saying its an absolutely terrible and unneeded suggestion that only ever crops up on the Tanker forums because Tankers with all of their ridiculous levels of mitigation, and gauntlet, and easy street for build planning still manage to feel insecure with Brutes having mag 4 threat & taunt auras. Having a taunt aura is a prime component of Brute effectiveness and is an important part of the Brute playstyle. Without the ability to hold aggro, even in the face of a Tanker next to them, the Brute is a second rate Scrapper and has no purpose. Any Brute that complains they have a taunt aura has chosen the wrong AT (and I've never heard anyone capable of rational thought actually complain about this). |
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If you have a taunt and a taunt aura you are designed to hold aggro for whatever reasons. Getting fury is a bonus.|
Originally Posted by LSK
To go with this the reason they have a taunt and get aggro is not because to hold it, instead it is there for there fury build up to help them better with damage if I am not mistaken.
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I know you want to tell me that MMs were originally the "tankers" of CoV - but that obviously went nowhere.
Brutes have been holding aggro since their inception, redside teams have been calling on Brutes to hold aggro since their inception.
I see no reason why that has to suddenly change now.
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Indeed. This becomes very important when I am trying to take aggro off a tanker with my brute or scrapper and when some brute or scrapper is trying to take aggro of one of my tankers.|
Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
Tankers have the advantage in that they have Gauntlet. Tankers specialize in mitigation, this does not make them the defacto specialist in holding aggro, nor should they have an Auto-Win level of aggro control.
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People better start getting used to sharing aggro, because it is likely that the mechanic is going to appear in more than just the BAF and it is likely it may become truly necessary in future content. Aggro management never meant all aggro should be on one person and the game is finally making people understand that.
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
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Gonna have to disgaree with you here. Brutes where given aggro to help build Fury. Fury wasn't/isnt a bonus to it.
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Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
If you have a taunt and a taunt aura you are designed to hold aggro for whatever reasons. Getting fury is a bonus.
I know you want to tell me that MMs were originally the "tankers" of CoV - but that obviously went nowhere. Brutes have been holding aggro since their inception, redside teams have been calling on Brutes to hold aggro since their inception. I see no reason why that has to suddenly change now. |
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Surely it wouldn't be far-fetched to believe devs had both fury generation and tanking in mind when they gave brutes their aggro.
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Originally Posted by BrandX
Gonna have to disgaree with you here. Brutes where given aggro to help build Fury. Fury wasn't/isnt a bonus to it.
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Mains (Freedom) @Auroxis
Auroxis - Emp/Rad/Power Defender Pylon Video Soloing an AV
Pelvic Thunder - SS/Elec/Mu Brute
Sorajin - Elec/Nin Stalker
Neuropain - Sonic/Mental/Elec Blaster
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Well, I'm sure they had to think some tanking in mind. I just know the devs also said they considered the MMs the Tankers of redside.|
Originally Posted by Auroxis
Surely it wouldn't be far-fetched to believe devs had both fury generation and tanking in mind when they gave brutes their aggro.
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But then, the way we tend to run the Hami Raid isn't what the devs originally planned either.
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The BrandX Collection
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The trials have been the best implementation in game play allowing for multiple Tankers / Brutes to all coexist on a single league and actually have a reason to be there and sharing aggro together.|
Originally Posted by StratoNexus
Indeed. This becomes very important when I am trying to take aggro off a tanker with my brute or scrapper and when some brute or scrapper is trying to take aggro of one of my tankers.
People better start getting used to sharing aggro, because it is likely that the mechanic is going to appear in more than just the BAF and it is likely it may become truly necessary in future content. Aggro management never meant all aggro should be on one person and the game is finally making people understand that. |
Endless waves of enemies, hard hitting AVs, anti-aggro mechanics - all excellent ideas to force people out of the old paradigm that is typical in MMOs.
I'm very happy with the direction they took combat in Trials for these reasons.
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Originally Posted by BrandX
Gonna have to disgaree with you here. Brutes where given aggro to help build Fury. Fury wasn't/isnt a bonus to it.
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They generate fury from this and they take a bigger risk than the Tanker doing so because they have less mitigation to rely on.
And as Auroxis has already stated, you can have both ideas coexist at once.
Hold aggro & Deal Damage (Higher Risk & Higher Payout Playstyle)
The tanker on the other hand is:
Hold aggro & Extreme Mitigation. (Lower Risk & Consistent Payout Playstyle)
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Funny on my MM i get called a lot to hold aggro with my BOTS, heck I did a mort this morning on him and i was getting more aggro control then the 3 brutes and 1 scrapper on team. It is also how people play there MM that makes them the tanks on red side.
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Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
If you have a taunt and a taunt aura you are designed to hold aggro for whatever reasons. Getting fury is a bonus.
I know you want to tell me that MMs were originally the "tankers" of CoV - but that obviously went nowhere. Brutes have been holding aggro since their inception, redside teams have been calling on Brutes to hold aggro since their inception. I see no reason why that has to suddenly change now. |
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I'd love to see a direct quote from a Dev, stating explicitly that they planned MMs to function in the exact role the Tanker fills.|
Originally Posted by BrandX
Well, I'm sure they had to think some tanking in mind. I just know the devs also said they considered the MMs the Tankers of redside.
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Because when I look at redside ATs as a group that's not what I see.
What I see is less clearly defined roles, where instead of having the Tanker acting like MMO tankers, you have multiple hybrid ATs each picking up different portions of the normal roles and sharing them.
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I have no issue with you telling me that your MM does this, can do this or that teams prefer this.|
Originally Posted by LSK
Funny on my MM i get called a lot to hold aggro with my BOTS, heck I did a mort this morning on him and i was getting more aggro control then the 3 brutes and 1 scrapper on team. It is also how people play there MM that makes them the tanks on red side.
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I have not often experienced that personally, but my feeling is that if you as the player can pull that off - then more power to you. I see no reason to tell you that you shouldn't.
That also doesn't mean you are the defacto Tanker for redside.
Brutes aren't even the defacto Tanker for redside.
Regardless, Brutes hold aggro.
They do this by design.
Same MAG Threat in their attacks, same MAG Threat in their Taunt Auras, Taunt Auras in nearly (and soon to be all) every power-set they have.
They even get the same Taunt Power, as opposed to Confront.
The WP aura isn't weak because of Taunt Mag though - its weak because the taunt duration is 1/10th all the other auras
Does it really make sense that a Shield Scrapper's taunt aura is better than a Willpower Tanks?
We have been given some examples in this thread to suggest there are quite a few scrappers who don't want that either. So much so they suggest that /SR and Regen should have no taunt aura at all .. and its better that way.
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The Taunt abilities of Brutes was set up prior to them playing side by side with Tanks, Obviously. So it is whatever level it is within that frame of reference.
Evidently some *want* it to be as good as a tanks. But the reasoning is a bit jumbled. They want the taunt so they can generate fury? They want it so they can hold the most aggro? They want it so they can "tank" when there are no tanks on the team? They want it so they can "tank" when there are tanks on a team? They want it because the Devs nerfed max fury?
I would suggest if a tanker monopolizing aggro is a problem.. then maybe why that is should be looked at.
Since tanks have a Taunt AOE in each attack as an inherent after all. Even with things as they are now, with equal powersets, the Tank will steal more aggro than the brute in the same situation.
Is it just me, or is anyone thinking of making a Stone/MA tank just to see how weird they'll look in Granite Armor?
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A Scrappers AAO Taunt is not stronger than a Tankers AAO Taunt.|
Originally Posted by Hai Jinx
The WP aura isn't weak because of Taunt Mag though - its weak because the taunt duration is 1/10th all the other auras
Does it really make sense that a Shield Scrapper's taunt aura is better than a Willpower Tanks? |
What is your concern, that this poses a risk to the scrapper?
Good.
This game needs those risks, and not auto-win tankbots.
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Originally Posted by Hai Jinx
We have been given some examples in this thread to suggest there are quite a few scrappers who don't want that either. So much so they suggest that /SR and Regen should have no taunt aura at all .. and its better that way.
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And for every person that is saying they don't want a taunt aura, I see an equal number saying that they do.
So when you choose a secondary power set for your scrapper, choose wisely.
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Originally Posted by Hai Jinx
The Taunt abilities of Brutes was set up prior to them playing side by side with Tanks, Obviously. So it is whatever level it is within that frame of reference.
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Originally Posted by Hai Jinx
Evidently some *want* it to be as good as a tanks. But the reasoning is a bit jumbled. They want the taunt so they can generate fury? They want it so they can hold the most aggro? They want it so they can "tank" when there are no tanks on the team? They want it so they can "tank" when there are tanks on a team? They want it because the Devs nerfed max fury?
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Originally Posted by Hai Jinx
Since tanks have a Taunt AOE in each attack as an inherent after all. Even with things as they are now, with equal powersets, the Tank will steal more aggro than the brute in the same situation.
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By the way, the Tanker doesn't automatically steal more aggro.
The Tanker gets an advantage in generating AoE threat whether their Secondary power set has AoE attacks or not, and whether they took Taunt or not.
That's not going to stop an AoE heavy damage focused Brute from generating massive quantities of threat and even pulling it off of many Tankers - but it does mean that the Brute will need to plan a bit better if they aim to generate AoE threat for Fury or Tanking, or both.
If a Tanker can't pull aggro away from my Brutes or Scrappers, then he/she shouldn't be tanking 
Basically --
- Improve Willpower's taunt for Tankers
- Make sure all tankers auras are roughly (+/-50% at least) equivilent in taunting.
Downgrade all Scrapper auras so they work like Willpower's aura does now.. in that it will taunt as long as no one else does something to draw aggro. This will allow any Tank to pull aggro off any scrapper. As it is a WP tank cant aura taunt off of a inv scrapper for example.Pick some midway point and change all the brute auras to that level.
seeing as we're talking wishful thinking I wish they'd remove click status protection and turn it into toggle status protection or make the click ones work like a breakfree.
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