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Considering how insane the "enemies run to the next country from scrappers without a taunt aura" situation has become these days, I'd have to call my scrapper brethren believing otherwise quite silly.
| This may come as a shock Bill, but not everyone considers drawing aggro on something other than than a tanker to be an actual advantage. |
Be well, people of CoH.
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My namesake and first 50 is a DM/SR scrapper who was my main for over 2 years had been sitting unplayed for 10 months. I love the character, but I cannot play him anymore because even though I can solo AVs and and do all kinds of crazy scrapper tricks, I cannot stand runners. I love scrappers, but I will not play one anymore with out a real taunt aura. |
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
Considering how insane the "enemies run to the next country from scrappers without a taunt aura" situation has become these days, I'd have to call my scrapper brethren believing otherwise quite silly.
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I would LOVE all scrappers to have a taunt aura. They have enough survivability to deal with the aggro, and adding it allows you to not to worry about runners, and kill things faster.
Last time someone opened up a thread complaining about aggro auras on the scrapper forum, the dogpile that resulted was so onesided it wasn't even funny.
I'm not suggesting scrapper forum regulars are representative of the average player, but I think the kind of people who care enough about the game to create a forum account and post in the AT boards tend to have better knowledge of the game than the average player. Having an aggro aura is a boon more often than not and results in a hefty increase in DPS.
I'm sure there are players who would rather not have an aggro aura - much like there are players who prefer to skip their toggles, arguing they perform better with the extra endurance. People make all kinds of poor decisions based on an incorrect understanding of the game environment, it's important not to confuse beliefs with facts.
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I'll give you the power order. I won't give the taunt aura.|
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
That's kinda what we do around here.
Here's what will tick me off to no end: The devs choose to make changes to SR for tanks and don't push those changes back to Scrapper/Brute SR. It's bad enough that brute SR got the power order change and the taunt aura on evasion without those changes being backtracked to scrapper SR. Any further such shenanigans will probably cause me to get banned from the forums for good. Course... they might like that. |
There's people who picked SR due to it not having a taunt aura. A taunt aura is a major game changer for any Scrapper who has had a SR this long and really don't want it.
Yes, it would be a game changer you want. But still, it's a negative for all those who wanted a scrapper without an aggro aura.
If they did change power orders for SR though, I think some Brutes/Stalkers might want Energize earlier.
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Doesn't Shield/ have basically a PB clone for Mez protection?
So doesn't Shield/ have no perma-mez protection before SOs ?
I'd take the SR/ higher defense over the shield in that pre-SO comparison. Since you can dodge a lot of status effects.
Although I still think PB and all its clones should be a toggle .
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Also where's Stone/ in all this? .. Their Mez protection outside of granite is even slower than granite.
They can't run around like that unsupported on SO's let alone before SO's, they would die ... of boredom.
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I am with Bill Z on the Taunt Aura though. I guess that's why we get a run speed increase ... so that we can chase down the runners we get because we have no taunt aura.
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Arguing that decisions should be made by the person with the best understanding of the game regardless of the beliefs of anyone else with a lesser understanding is a curious position to take against a stipulation of mine.|
Originally Posted by Nihilii
I'm sure there are players who would rather not have an aggro aura - much like there are players who prefer to skip their toggles, arguing they perform better with the extra endurance. People make all kinds of poor decisions based on an incorrect understanding of the game environment, it's important not to confuse beliefs with facts.
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In any case, making a change that addresses no balance issue to existing powersets that has a decent chance of killing average skill players playing statistically average builds is something I wouldn't support, and adding a taunt aggro to SR for existing SR scrappers is sufficiently likely to do that based on my understanding of both the average skill player and the statistically likely average build. What min/maxers want always comes second to that. The day that the game changes that foundational principle, I'll advocate for what's most useful for high performance players. Not before.
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I find it curious that you equate not wanting a taunt aura with not being competent.|
Originally Posted by Nihilii
I'm sure there are players who would rather not have an aggro aura - much like there are players who prefer to skip their toggles, arguing they perform better with the extra endurance. People make all kinds of poor decisions based on an incorrect understanding of the game environment, it's important not to confuse beliefs with facts.
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Is it hard to believe that there might be competent players who prefer not to be automatically pulling aggro?
Taunts are why I can't play tankers. I feel like I'm being punished for participating in combat, specifically because of Gauntlet. At least brutes get something for being attacked, and some powers scale up in strength with enemies nearby.
Having enemies pile on me JUST because I'm there, not because I'm the biggest threat? That is very unfun for me.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Softcapping an Invuln is fantastic. Softcapping a Willpower is amazing. Softcapping SR is kissing your sister.
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That principle is exactly what caused the devs to block the flight and tport power pools from kheldians regardless of the fact that it completely screwed them over by blocking access to the best power pool attack in the game.
People should be allowed to make stupid mistakes and learn from them.
Be well, people of CoH.
Just my opinion, but, if as an incarnate tanker I felt I needed or had to take Rebirth for my Destiny slot, then I'd call that "FAIL."
Interestingly enough, I have both Barrier and Rebirth for my Fire/Fire tank.
I generally use Barrier on him, but in some teaming situations I'll use Rebirth as a support for others when Barrier isn't as useful. It's also nice having the extra +regen or HP on Hamidon raids, and it's helping me get the healing badges.
Throwing darts at the board to see if something sticks.....
Come show your resolve and fight my brute!
Tanks: Gauntlet, the streak breaker and you!
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Originally Posted by PapaSlade
Rangle's right....this is fun.
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The problem is not taking a taunt aura is not an intrinsically stupid mistake, and if its embedded in a defense toggle its not a decision that can easily be avoided. You'd be equating not taking a taunt aura with not taking AoE defense.|
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
That principle is exactly what caused the devs to block the flight and tport power pools from kheldians regardless of the fact that it completely screwed them over by blocking access to the best power pool attack in the game.
People should be allowed to make stupid mistakes and learn from them. |
If you really want the option to run with a taunt aura on anything, I would consider advocating that the devs add a power to the presence pool that you could take which actually does just that: grants a toggle with a PBAoE taunt. Give it no prereqs and let people take it right out of the gate. You'd give not just SR but all scrappers an optional taunt aura power without messing with existing players that don't want it. I'd say the chances of that happening are much, much, much better than giving taunt auras to everything.
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I have rebirth on my SR scrapper and it is his only self heal. So there's your counter opinion.|
Originally Posted by UNB0UND_4_LIFE
Just my opinion, but, if as an incarnate tanker I felt I needed or had to take Rebirth for my Destiny slot, then I'd call that "FAIL."
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And Arcanaville, the taunt aura thing was a secondary point. If they do make PB a toggle for tanks and not give it to scrappers/brutes, I would find it insulting and unfair.
If they were to go with other ideas thrown about, some of them yours, say adding a slight HP or Regen buff to tank SR and not backtrack that change, I would find it insulting and unfair.
Yes, I get it. Scrapper SR didn't get the evasion taunt aura change because so many existing SR users didn't want it. I remember the discussions in beta.
Since I'm apparently no longer welcome in such things, I don't know if the devs have or haven't made any such changes again which prompts me to start raising hell about it now.
Be well, people of CoH.
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I have seen them run form tanks with a taunt aura and when ppl use taunt. Yes taunt dose help some but not all the time. Also Fire tanks has to hit a power to get the protection like imm.
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Originally Posted by Death_Adder
My namesake and first 50 is a DM/SR scrapper who was my main for over 2 years had been sitting unplayed for 10 months. I love the character, but I cannot play him anymore because even though I can solo AVs and and do all kinds of crazy scrapper tricks, I cannot stand runners. I love scrappers, but I will not play one anymore with out a real taunt aura.
I would LOVE all scrappers to have a taunt aura. They have enough survivability to deal with the aggro, and adding it allows you to not to worry about runners, and kill things faster. |
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I said "tanker" - I have rebirth on my scrapper too. |
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
I have rebirth on my SR scrapper and it is his only self heal. So there's your counter opinion.
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Every single Shield tank or Scrapper I have ever made has been Science Origin and now with emailing enhancements, every Brute will be Science origin. In fact, every single melee toon that has a click status protect power will be of Science Origin and will have perma status protect the next level after it becomes available. How? Why? Yin SO's-- science origin gets recharge SO's. All you need is just one toon that has that badge and you can email yourself all the Yin So's you need. So, unless your toon's concept isnt flexilbe enough to have a Science origin, this issue about perma click status protect is only about your personal choice.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
I'm also a little concerned about SR tankers not actually having permanent status protection before SOs come around. Shield Tankers have a similar problem, but Shield Tankers have arguably better passive protection: they get to keep phalanx and true grit.
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(Forgive me if this came off as an attack or harsh, I should have been in bed already.)
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Quite frequently, actually. |
Originally Posted by LSK
Well how often do the Devs listen to the players suggestions?
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Out of this round of proliferation, over half of it are power sets that players have been suggesting be ported for quite a while now.
Poison and Psi Blast for Corruptors? Yep, I recall numerous threads about that.
Thermal and Fire for Defenders? Ditto.
Broadsword, Katana and Regen for Brutes? Same there.
War Mace and Battle Axe have been suggested for Scrappers more frequently than anything but Super Strength and Ninjitsu.
Dark Blast is the single most requested powerset for Blasters. Ever.
And Brute players have been positively BEGGING for Energy Aura to be fixed, and it looks like they're doing exactly that.
Your assertion that the devs never listen to the players is blatantly false. They may not have listened to YOU, but that doesn't mean they didn't listen to ANYONE.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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Rest assured, I'm literally the last person to worry about in terms of figuring out a way to gain any capability the game theoretically supports.|
Originally Posted by Mr_Body
Every single Shield tank or Scrapper I have ever made has been Science Origin and now with emailing enhancements, every Brute will be Science origin. In fact, every single melee toon that has a click status protect power will be of Science Origin and will have perma status protect the next level after it becomes available. How? Why? Yin SO's-- science origin gets recharge SO's. All you need is just one toon that has that badge and you can email yourself all the Yin So's you need. So, unless your toon's concept isnt flexilbe enough to have a Science origin, this issue about perma click status protect is only about your personal choice.
(Forgive me if this came off as an attack or harsh, I should have been in bed already.) |
However, the devs own design rules specify the minimum performance of a tanker, and they do not admit the scenario above as a mitigating circumstance. Therefore, were I to make the case to the devs that their own design rules suggest a potential problem with SR tankers and status protection, they would not likely use that argument and I would not accept it from them if they did.
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Well, depending on the set, an extra heal would be quite nice. I know I'm going for Rebirth on my Invuln Tanker. He may be soft-capped to S/L, but I know he's going to be hit by things even then, and it'll be nice to have against those hits that do get in, even with all his resists. The Keyes Trial has only re-emphasized this for me.|
Originally Posted by UNB0UND_4_LIFE
Just my opinion, but, if as an incarnate tanker I felt I needed or had to take Rebirth for my Destiny slot, then I'd call that "FAIL."
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I'd be in the same boat for any set that did not have a reasonably fast recharge on its heal: even Energize for Electric Armor feels a little slow after my experience with Fiery Aura and Dark Armor, and I know I'd want it up faster for Keyes. I was using Healing Flames quite often on my one run on Grey Pilgrim.
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Originally Posted by LSK
I have seen them run form tanks with a taunt aura and when ppl use taunt. Yes taunt dose help some but not all the time. Also Fire tanks has to hit a power to get the protection like imm.
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But that was also part of the crowd that nerfed Burn overly much as well. Weird choices all around. I'd still take Combat Jumping if the immob protection was put into the toggles, but it's still strange.
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Yeah, I agree the rchg on Energize can feel slow, but I carry 8 green insps for Keyes and have no worries.
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Originally Posted by Grey Pilgrim
Well, depending on the set, an extra heal would be quite nice. I know I'm going for Rebirth on my Invuln Tanker. He may be soft-capped to S/L, but I know he's going to be hit by things even then, and it'll be nice to have against those hits that do get in, even with all his resists. The Keyes Trial has only re-emphasized this for me.
I'd be in the same boat for any set that did not have a reasonably fast recharge on its heal: even Energize for Electric Armor feels a little slow after my experience with Fiery Aura and Dark Armor, and I know I'd want it up faster for Keyes. I was using Healing Flames quite often on my one run on Grey Pilgrim. |
I'd love to see PB get +20% max HP and 50% regen added. I think that would be good for all the ATs with SR.
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I have trouble figuring out what Destiny to take on my tank characters. I ended up with Ageless on my WM/WP/Earth tanker, mostly because End drain was likely his primary bane and I thought the debuff resists could be nice. So far I am happy with the choice.|
Originally Posted by UNB0UND_4_LIFE
Yeah, I agree the rchg on Energize can feel slow, but I carry 8 green insps for Keyes and have no worries.
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My Kat/Inv/Body scrapper went with Rebirth. An extra heal and more regen on top of all the other mitigation is very nice.
My SS/EA/Soul Brute went with Clarion. Avoiding Fear and Confuse has been nice, the modest increase in defense and a few other secondary effects is OK, but primarily I thought if I could keep teammates from getting mezzed, that would likely help me the most.
I have no idea what to take on my Fire/Ice/Earth tanker. His recharge is already great, he has no end issues, so Ageless is out. Healing Flames recharges so fast, Rebirth seems a waste. Barrier could be could and seems the likely choice, but Clarion is also looking nice. Some extra status protection for myself and allies, preventing even those exotic mezzes (which become less exotic every year).
Anyone have a good Destiny suggestion for a graniteless Stone/Stone/Energy?
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
Strato, I went with Barrier on my Fire/Fire. It's nice for when things get really stacked up, though you want to use it pre-emptively. None of the other ones seemed worth it, since I have no endurance issues and I don't really need more recharge (I also have a Spiritual if I really need it, but Cardiac seems far better).
Graniteless Stone? You be crazy! 
Do you have any soft points you want to shore up for him? I could see Barrier being helpful, or Rebirth if you find yourself needing heals between uses of Earth's Embrace.
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Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
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I do not have many science origins but my SD/BA tank is natural and his click power is perma, I do not see why science origin is better then the rest?
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Originally Posted by Mr_Body
Every single Shield tank or Scrapper I have ever made has been Science Origin and now with emailing enhancements, every Brute will be Science origin. In fact, every single melee toon that has a click status protect power will be of Science Origin and will have perma status protect the next level after it becomes available. How? Why? Yin SO's-- science origin gets recharge SO's. All you need is just one toon that has that badge and you can email yourself all the Yin So's you need. So, unless your toon's concept isnt flexilbe enough to have a Science origin, this issue about perma click status protect is only about your personal choice.
(Forgive me if this came off as an attack or harsh, I should have been in bed already.) |
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I never meant to emply that they do not help but u do get them running away sometimes not as often as the ones that do not have taunt, I agree with u on the CJ.
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Originally Posted by Grey Pilgrim
Yes, but the aura and taunt do help quite a bit. You kind of have a point with the Fiery Aura immobilization stuff, but the devs putting most of Fiery Aura's mez protection out of Burn and into toggles does speak against that, too. I'm still not entirely sure why they chose to keep it in Burn when they made the other changes, to be honest.
But that was also part of the crowd that nerfed Burn overly much as well. Weird choices all around. I'd still take Combat Jumping if the immob protection was put into the toggles, but it's still strange. |
I'm sure there are players who would rather not have an aggro aura - much like there are players who prefer to skip their toggles, arguing they perform better with the extra endurance. People make all kinds of poor decisions based on an incorrect understanding of the game environment, it's important not to confuse beliefs with facts.
Quoting something only to purposefully and blatantly misinterpret it as to attempt to derail the argument isn't worth answering with any more effort than a copypaste of the previously made point.
I can live with SR scrappers not being the top dogs of survivability because I don't have to carry the aggro for the team. This lets me focus on dealing damage instead of resorting to things such as Aid Self, or running away after I get 2 rings on a BAF.
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