One penalty that I don't think was mentioned:
15. Jail. We have it on certain maps in that, you die and when you click 'Go to Hospital' you're spawned in a jail cell.
I actually like this penalty and would be kind of cool if they toughened this even more for this game. Certain enemy groups, like Arachnos, Council, Longbow, etc. it only makes sense that they *always* send you to jail...but not normal jail somewhere inside the map. Oh no, they'll ship you off to a 'jail map' in Fort Cerberus or Agincourt which is instanced for you with guards, locked doors, forcefields and patrols looming around to make sure you don't get out. After breaking out a certain number of times, they start using sedatives to make you less a threat to escape.
But using stealth, or self-rez powers make this a non-problem...so pick up those self-rezzes, mmkay?
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It is. With no motivation to choose your battles carefully, the content becomes trivial. Rather than considering "What's the best way to take down that target while avoiding as many deaths as possible", a team becomes "throw people at it pouring all-out DPS until it dies. If you die, just respawn and run back in" ( aka "zerg fests" ).
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
You say that like it's a bad thing.
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Here's another vote for NOTHING. Ironman competitions are all well and good, but not everyone wants to participate, and not everyone plays hard to kill characters like scrappers, tanks, and brutes. People shouldn't be penalized for playing faceplant factory ATs like blasters if they want to do so. And really, if you insist on a debuff every time you die...just turn off another of your mitigation toggles each time you die. If you want to go to jail, then use the ouro portal to send yourself to Nebraska and walk back. Nerf -yourself- rather than call for debuffs for everyone else. "But Valerika, if I do that, no one will want to play with me! They'd say I was being pointlessly hard on myself and taking the fun out of the game for everyone else." Right. Think about that for a minute.|
Originally Posted by baron_inferno
So yeah.. no thanks. |
[EDIT]: When I say "NOTHING", I mean don't change the current death/debt system. I'm not calling to abolish debt altogether. I just mean leave things as they currently are
Feel free to try out my AE mission arc, # 473452: Praetorian Redemption
@Valerika
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I don't WANT motivation to choose my battles carefully. I want motivation to be brave and dive into trouble head-first, confident that I will win, or at the very worst I will get to try again. I don't want to be cautious and afraid of mistakes or failure. There's nothing duller in this game than having to play chess with the mission and power designers.|
Originally Posted by Tyger42
It is. With no motivation to choose your battles carefully, the content becomes trivial. Rather than considering "What's the best way to take down that target while avoiding as many deaths as possible", a team becomes "throw people at it pouring all-out DPS until it dies. If you die, just respawn and run back in" ( aka "zerg fests" ).
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The most fun City of Heroes ever gets is when things go horribly wrong.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Originally Posted by EU_Damz
Could do it just so the player gets a random salvage or inspiration from the enemy. Doesnt have to be evil
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::runs in:: Hey make that random rare incarnate drops of all types and I'd actually take the time to do a PvP build :: runs out before I learn what bludgeoned to death really means ::
------->"Sic Semper Tyrannis"<-------
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This. There is a reason why I still play CoH but not EQ1 ;p
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Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
10. None of the above. The *lack* of crap like that is part of what's appealing about COH.
I've dealt with "rez sickness," having to pay "soul healers" to get XP back, loss of items and the like. HATED it. Especially when it's a death due to something like lag. Those games tend to get dumped. |
Originally Posted by Megajoule
We're being invaded. Again. This time, instead of aliens, zombies, or eyeballs with teeth, it's the marching band.
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But things going horribly wrong is meaningless if there are no consequences. With no consequences, risk is irrelevant. Every game has consequences for failure. In some, you're one step closer to "game over" ( Or flat-out "game over" on the first death ). In others, you're reverted back to your last save. In still others, you "respawn", losing everything that you gained before you died. Why is the idea of an MMO having consequences for failure so intolerable to some people? And I mean consequences that go beyond "Oh, darn, I died. Oh well..."|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
I don't WANT motivation to choose my battles carefully. I want motivation to be brave and dive into trouble head-first, confident that I will win, or at the very worst I will get to try again. I don't want to be cautious and afraid of mistakes or failure. There's nothing duller in this game than having to play chess with the mission and power designers.
The most fun City of Heroes ever gets is when things go horribly wrong. |
As the old saying goes "nothing ventured, nothing gained". It sounds to me like you want "nothing ventured, everything gained". May as well just add a god mode code and have done with it.
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Lol all the posts you make about stuff that works against the story, or breaking immersion and yet this isn't one of them.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
I don't WANT motivation to choose my battles carefully. I want motivation to be brave and dive into trouble head-first, confident that I will win, or at the very worst I will get to try again. I don't want to be cautious and afraid of mistakes or failure. There's nothing duller in this game than having to play chess with the mission and power designers.
The most fun City of Heroes ever gets is when things go horribly wrong. |
You'd think those Council guys would be like..."Hey, boss, wanna lock the door after taking care of this guy for the 4th time?"
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I still hate it that we get actually weaker when we level up. Yeah I know this isn't a big issue with IOs around anymore, but still.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
I never found an NPC that could do that wile I was there, which was admittedly a long time ago. Either way, I don't want penalties to my performance. If I failed once, I failed for a reason. Making me WEAKER just makes me more likely to fail again, making me weaker still.
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Originally Posted by Megajoule
We're being invaded. Again. This time, instead of aliens, zombies, or eyeballs with teeth, it's the marching band.
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Hmm, I dunno. The base values of most of our powers go up at the same time as the classic enhancements' values go down. There's also a change in hit and damage penalties/bonuses. So, against a 40 mob, we're more effective at 41 than we were at 40 even after the change in SO contributions. So, I wouldn't say we're becoming weaker at all.
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Originally Posted by Razia
I still hate it that we get actually weaker when we level up. Yeah I know this isn't a big issue with IOs around anymore, but still.
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For anyone that actually wants these penalties they're already in-game.
Permadeath: Log out, hit delete, type dead character's name, hit the button.
Limited Lives: Only resurrect if you have a respec to spend. Don't reslot any enhancements if you want to corpse run.
Full Body Looting: After death replace some or all enhancements with TOs, delete all or some salvage.
Death Debuff Penalty: Replace some enhancements with TOs after death, if all enhancements are TOs replace those with the least useful enhancement they'll take.
If you *really* want the penalties they are there, thankfully they are entirely optional so everyone that got tired of them in every other mmo can continue to play without those annoyances.
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I think for a lot of people, the concern is more about motivating other people than themselves. It can get frustrating ending up on too many teams where the attitude of the whole team is to just barrel on in carelessly and if you die, "Oh well...". Zerg tactics are only entertaining for so long...
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Originally Posted by Ogi
For anyone that actually wants these penalties they're already in-game.
Permadeath: Log out, hit delete, type dead character's name, hit the button. Limited Lives: Only resurrect if you have a respec to spend. Don't reslot any enhancements if you want to corpse run. Full Body Looting: After death replace some or all enhancements with TOs, delete all or some salvage. Death Debuff Penalty: Replace some enhancements with TOs after death, if all enhancements are TOs replace those with the least useful enhancement they'll take. If you *really* want the penalties they are there, thankfully they are entirely optional so everyone that got tired of them in every other mmo can continue to play without those annoyances. |
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Team with better people. Or lower your standards for PUGs, or raise your difficulty.
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Originally Posted by Tyger42
I think for a lot of people, the concern is more about motivating other people than themselves. It can get frustrating ending up on too many teams where the attitude of the whole team is to just barrel on in carelessly and if you die, "Oh well...". Zerg tactics are only entertaining for so long...
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That's kinda the point of death penalties, though. When death is meaningful, it tends to encourage people to get better.|
Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
Team with better people. Or lower your standards for PUGs, or raise your difficulty.
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Again, I ask, why is it so abhorrent to some people for MMOs to penalize failure when every other genre of games does so?
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If every other genre of game jumped off a bridge, would MMOs do it too? |
Originally Posted by Tyger42
That's kinda the point of death penalties, though. When death is meaningful, it tends to encourage people to get better.
Again, I ask, why is it so abhorrent to some people for MMOs to penalize failure when every other genre of games does so? |
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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Well, they all went online didn't they? |
Originally Posted by Dispari
If every other genre of game jumped off a bridge, would MMOs do it too?
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To be honest though, I'd suggest looking at what's happened to death penalties in the genre as a whole. They've gotten less and less. There is a bit of realization that the loss of time from dying is the most effective 'penalty', and it's inherent to the system.
Although, with COH it should be noted that there's no distinction between combat rez and out of combat rez. Which does have an impact as well, so you can deter zerging.
Let's Dance!
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There are many billions of reasons why death penalties don't particularly work in an MMO. My personal reason is that MMOs are about social interaction. They're more about having fun than competing or "winning." You don't have limited lives to beat the game with because there's no way to beat the game. And you don't need limited lives to pit yourself against other players and see who comes out on top because the game's not about that. So, death is a part of the game, but it need not be severe.
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Originally Posted by reiella
Well, they all went online didn't they?
To be honest though, I'd suggest looking at what's happened to death penalties in the genre as a whole. They've gotten less and less. There is a bit of realization that the loss of time from dying is the most effective 'penalty', and it's inherent to the system. Although, with COH it should be noted that there's no distinction between combat rez and out of combat rez. Which does have an impact as well, so you can deter zerging. |
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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Cute. But the point I was trying to make is that there's a good reason for it. Accomplishment is meaningless if there was no risk of any sort of meaningful loss to failure.
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Originally Posted by Dispari
If every other genre of game jumped off a bridge, would MMOs do it too?
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The point I was trying to make is, just because everyone else does it, doesn't make it a good idea.|
Originally Posted by Tyger42
Cute. But the point I was trying to make is that there's a good reason for it. Accomplishment is meaningless if there was no risk of any sort of meaningful loss to failure.
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I think you'll find a lot of people playing CoH who can still muster accomplishment out of the game even if they don't lose significant and/or effort work when they die. I think it would be terribly boring if the only way to measure accomplishment is the act of not dying. Fortunately, our playerbase and developers are far more creative than that.
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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Doesn't make it an inherently bad idea, either. What it does do is make it worth looking at WHY they're doing it.|
Originally Posted by Dispari
The point I was trying to make is, just because everyone else does it, doesn't make it a good idea.
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| I think you'll find a lot of people playing CoH who can still muster accomplishment out of the game even if they don't lose significant and/or effort work when they die. I think it would be terribly boring if the only way to measure accomplishment is the act of not dying. Fortunately, our playerbase and developers are far more creative than that. |
But, like I said, a meaningful penalty to failure encourages improvement. Without one, people tend to get too careless in regards to risks. If there's no chance of losing anything, why plan ahead and think about what you're doing. And I kinda think when death isn't penalized at all, they may as well just be handing you the xp and drops and such.
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It would be impossible for there to be no death penalty at all, unless characters were just invincible. Even in CoH, just the timeout from combat, having to rez or be rezzed without toggles and possibly dying again, or in the worst case walk back from the hospital are a form of death penalty.|
Originally Posted by Tyger42
Well, as I've said, I found CoH's death penalty to be fine. It's the notion that there should be none at all that I take exception too.
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With my Dominator, the worst death penalty is that I have to wait for Domination to recharge, as I'm a lot weaker without it.
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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Yeah, the death is punishment enough, by my opine.
Even in this game a team that dies repeatedly can get snarky and will evaporate with too many wipes. Without any debt there'd still be negative impacts happening. It's a weird mechanic that other games don't really have, but is super important in this genre for no obvious reason besides religious ones.
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@Razoras
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Originally Posted by Tyger42
It is. With no motivation to choose your battles carefully, the content becomes trivial. Rather than considering "What's the best way to take down that target while avoiding as many deaths as possible", a team becomes "throw people at it pouring all-out DPS until it dies. If you die, just respawn and run back in" ( aka "zerg fests" ).
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http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
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I think those people have to mind their own damn business.
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Originally Posted by Tyger42
I think for a lot of people, the concern is more about motivating other people than themselves.
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The first one was Ragnarok Online, where you lost 1% experience if you died. It doesn't sound like a lot, but at high levels, 1% exp might take you 1-3 hours to earn. For more casual players it could eliminate an entire day's worth of work, and make you extremely paranoid of dying -- even if was due to an accident or mistake.
To this day the level down sound infuriates me.
SUPPORT - IT'S NOT JUST A GROUPING OF ATs
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