i agree i like that the impact this game has on performance of a toon is minimal in terms of death
lets see out of the other games that i have played...
me and my cousin played a game which you lost exp in when you died, it used to be -10% xp (it was changed to -5% at some point), but to put it this way, at higher lvls of the game, 1.5 mil xp was 0.1% of a lvl (at lvl 59), oddly enough at lower lvls 1 kill was 10% of your lvl, so this game had an awful xp curve in addition to -xp on death
me and my cousin also played a different game which used a very similar xp debt system that we have, but that game was also riddled with microtransactions and armor repairs and the debt they had also had a debuff in it for a few minutes after rez
both games were fun until about lvl 30s then lvling became a huge grind and the death penalty was awful, and specifically the death penalty is what keeps me from trying out new games especially if it involves -xp and losing levels
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Please do not take offense when I tell you that honestly, I don't care if you think my character's death is meaningful consequence enough.| Not all players view dying as "losing", especially when there are no meaningful consequences for it. Yes, to you and other players, the death in itself may be a meaningful consequence, but to others, it's not. |
My characters belong to me, not to you. I will manage them appropriately. You don't get a vote.
All of this seems quite mean-spirited. Its in essence saying, "I want to make sure your death hurts you ENOUGH, because right now you are getting off too easy and you need more pain baby." That is not your judgement to make re anyone else's character.
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Actually, I read it more as saying: "I want to make sure your death hurts you so much that you won't dare play badly on MY team, or you'll have quit the game before you joined MY team."
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Originally Posted by Bad_Influence
All of this seems quite mean-spirited. Its in essence saying, "I want to make sure your death hurts you ENOUGH, because right now you are getting off too easy and you need more pain baby." That is not your judgement to make re anyone else's character.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Precisely one of the reasons why such a mechanic shouldn't be in City of Heroes. Such systems as I mentioned work best when death is a predictable and preventable outcome, where a user has a reasonable ability to assess a threat, predict the outcome, and take action that will mitigate that risk. None of that is part of CoH, so it would, indeed, fare poorly here.|
Originally Posted by Dispari
Since someone earlier was asking why MMOs don't need to have severe death penalties, I'll fill in on another reason based on this paragraph.
Different powersets, and different archetypes, have varying predispositions for dying. Meaning, severe death penalties would hurt (and discourage) Blasters far more than it would Tankers. It would also discourage powersets like Fire Armor, which is designed to not be super tough, but just resurrect when you die. It would also more greatly value the ability to resurrect people or keep them from dying in the first place, which would put a heavier emphasis on the classic "tank-healer-DPS" mold that we want to keep out of our game, and let people continue to keep playing whatever they feel like. |
A painful death penalty needs coupled with a whole set of mechanics that support the idea of avoiding death, both individually and in a team. If those aren't there, you have nothing but frustration.
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Yep, that's exactly what happened to me. |
Originally Posted by Chase_Arcanum
I'll preface this with a "I AM NOT ADVOCATING A CHANGE TO THE DEATH PENALTY HERE" statement, even though it'll be ignored, taken out of any quotes, or even edited to remove the "not" in the grand tradition that is gaming forum debate.
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I never once said the penalty for dying needs to be increased.
All I said was that I would be okay with a small stacking debuff that would have very little effect on anything, and people started jumping all over me telling me what I'm saying, when I said nothing of the kind.
"I would be okay with this." is NOT the same thing as "This is something that needs to happen.", but several people seem to think it IS the same thing.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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When the reality is "I want death to have enough of an impact that you're motivated to learn from it rather than simply shrug it off".
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Actually, I read it more as saying: "I want to make sure your death hurts you so much that you won't dare play badly on MY team, or you'll have quit the game before you joined MY team."
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Whereas the actual reality is that not everyone responds to penalty by trying to do better. A great many people respond by finding something else to do that doesn't penalise them. I came to this game specifically to avoid the horrible XP loss mechanic in Diablo 2 which kept me from levelling for an entire campaign because I died more than I gained experience. The farther along I got without levelling, the harder it got.|
Originally Posted by Tyger42
When the reality is "I want death to have enough of an impact that you're motivated to learn from it rather than simply shrug it off".
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"If at first you don't succeed, quit!" may not be a good mentality to have in real life, but luckily, this ain't real life.
*edit*
Incidentally, what's stopping YOU from learning from your mistakes? And if you have no problem with it, then what business is it of yours how other people handle defeat?
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Originally Posted by Bad_Influence
Please do not take offense when I tell you that honestly, I don't care if you think my character's death is meaningful consequence enough.
My characters belong to me, not to you. I will manage them appropriately. You don't get a vote. All of this seems quite mean-spirited. Its in essence saying, "I want to make sure your death hurts you ENOUGH, because right now you are getting off too easy and you need more pain baby." That is not your judgement to make re anyone else's character. |
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Actually, I read it more as saying: "I want to make sure your death hurts you so much that you won't dare play badly on MY team, or you'll have quit the game before you joined MY team."
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That's it. I doubt *ANYONE* is asking for the devs to overturn whatever changes they've made to the game and you should
*STOP!*
pretending anyone is.
And the way I see it, having a harsh death penalty isn't so much punishing the player as it is making the player not want to die. And if they *do* die, make them want to take their revenge on the foe that caused it.
That's probably the one thing that pisses me off more than debt in CoX is, when I get defeated out in the streets and I hospital back and try to find the group that offed me, sometimes they disappear. Now who am I gonna take my rage out on? I must be avenged!!
But yeah, the game is already damned easy. This ain't no Ninja Gaiden or Devil May Cry, so all this talk about "I want to play stupid" and what not just sounds about as uncool as wanting an 'I win' button. You should *want* to try to play with some skill, that's what games are for. I don't pop in tetris so that I can fill up one column on the first level and lose. I don't fire up galaga and just wave the ship back and forth idiotically and shoot at random. You play games to play them *good* not to be stupid >_<
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Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
10. None of the above. The *lack* of crap like that is part of what's appealing about COH.
I've dealt with "rez sickness," having to pay "soul healers" to get XP back, loss of items and the like. HATED it. Especially when it's a death due to something like lag. Those games tend to get dumped. |
/signed with #10 per Bill
PermaDeath? Forget that! No way I start all over with a new character just because I got defeated. heck even in old Atari games a character had X number of lives
Loss Levels or Powers? YEAH I don't think so.
The game is already set up after level 10 to incur debt we have to work, or now that we have patrol XP ..sleep off, and for 7 years that has worked just fine. I see no reason to change it.
�We�re always the good guys. In D&D, we�re lawful good. In City of Heroes we�re the heroes. In Grand Theft Auto we pay the prostitutes promptly and never hit them with a bat.� � Leonard
�Those women are prostitutes? You said they were raising money for stem cell research!� � Sheldon
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I have a good friend that I played CoH with back during Issue 1. He cancelled his sub just after Issue 2 came out and to this day refuses to even try CoH again. Why? XP Debt. He just won't believe me when I tell him debt has been so nerfed it is a pale shadow of what he remembers.|
Originally Posted by Tyger42
When the reality is "I want death to have enough of an impact that you're motivated to learn from it rather than simply shrug it off".
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Sometimes having a severe enough death penalty can have the opposite effect of what you want. Sometimes it leads to frustration and a cancelled sub.
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Even Debt 1.0 was pretty trivial as a death penalty, and it brought with it a bonus: when working debt off you gained more Influence for that level.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
I don't WANT motivation to choose my battles carefully. I want motivation to be brave and dive into trouble head-first, confident that I will win, or at the very worst I will get to try again. I don't want to be cautious and afraid of mistakes or failure. There's nothing duller in this game than having to play chess with the mission and power designers.
The most fun City of Heroes ever gets is when things go horribly wrong. |
The best comics are still 10�!
My City of Heroes Blog Freedom Feature Article: "Going Rageless?"
If you only read one guide this year, make it this one.
Super Reflexes: the Golden Fox of power sets!
WARNING: I bold names.
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Ah, so its a failure of learning on my part when Lord Recluse hits my Blaster for 2000 POD per hit, from 50 feet away. Good to know! I will get right on that. |
Originally Posted by Tyger42
When the reality is "I want death to have enough of an impact that you're motivated to learn from it rather than simply shrug it off".
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ROFFLE
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Depends on how harsh the penalty is. There's such thing as going too far in EITHER direction, though. If there's no penalty for failure, then for most people, it's a non-issue. If the penalty is too harsh, yes, people will get frustrated by it. As I said before, I think CoH's system works fine. I'm just arguing with the point that you and some others seem to be trying to make that death penalties are bad in every form and that being defeated in itself is enough of a penalty. It's not, except maybe for the most dedicated players.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Whereas the actual reality is that not everyone responds to penalty by trying to do better. A great many people respond by finding something else to do that doesn't penalise them.
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| I came to this game specifically to avoid the horrible XP loss mechanic in Diablo 2 which kept me from levelling for an entire campaign because I died more than I gained experience. The farther along I got without levelling, the harder it got. |
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*edit* Incidentally, what's stopping YOU from learning from your mistakes? And if you have no problem with it, then what business is it of yours how other people handle defeat? |
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Oh, hey, let's pick one specific example and try to use it as a universal rebuttal for my statement!|
Originally Posted by Bad_Influence
Ah, so its a failure of learning on my part when Lord Recluse hits my Blaster for 2000 POD per hit, from 50 feet away. Good to know! I will get right on that.
ROFFLE |
ROFFLE
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I think it would be interesting to see cosmetic changes to your costume for a death penalty. That black eye you have to sport for a week screams "Battlemaiden had her way with you." Maybe even a temporary title change on your toon that spoke of who kicked you into next Tuesday. It could question the wisdom of using that cyborg booster pack self destruct button...
Costume degradation that you have to pay a nominal fee to Icon to fix would be funny too. Maybe that Kheldian blood is near impossible to get out of the spandex ... Soon you'll be looking like the Lost scroungers.
Please post your global, Tyger, so the rest of us "zergers' can avoid annoying you with our inepitude when Bobcat hits our Blaster with 1500 pod per hit.
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Some people are more easily frustrated than others. *Shrug* Having no death penalty can lead to people quitting because they're bored. No risk to them makes the game too trivial. So, it goes both ways. I'd be willing to bet, though, that I'd be able to turn up more people who quit over the game being too easy than you can turn up who quit over the debt being too harsh.|
Originally Posted by Steel_Shaman
I have a good friend that I played CoH with back during Issue 1. He cancelled his sub just after Issue 2 came out and to this day refuses to even try CoH again. Why? XP Debt. He just won't believe me when I tell him debt has been so nerfed it is a pale shadow of what he remembers.
Sometimes having a severe enough death penalty can have the opposite effect of what you want. Sometimes it leads to frustration and a cancelled sub. |
I've also seen plenty of posts on this forum over the years from people who intentionally played in perma-debt because they felt leveling was too quick. ><
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What the #$%^ is a "pod"?|
Originally Posted by Bad_Influence
Please post your global, Tyger, so the rest of us "zergers' can avoid annoying you with our inepitude when Bobcat hits our Blaster with 1500 pod per hit.
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There's an answer to that, though: Keep out of melee and don't dump damage so fast you're pulling aggro off of the taunters. "Don't overburn" is a key piece of wisdom that "glass cannon" classes have held to as far back as EQ1 and farther. The "damage is king" attitude leads to some disturbingly careless playing...
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Surely someone as elite as you knows the abbreviation for points of damage.
sounds like you dont know everything after all. And surely you dont call being hit from 50 feet away being in melee? i dont, but im just one'a those zergers i guess.
Hmm...looked at the original list, and read every post thus far. My conclusion: screw all that.
Give me a buff when I die! Blasters get their death buff doubled!
Jumps into mob, goes down in a hail of gun fire.
Character: "Defeat me? DEFEAT ME!?!"
Hits wakie, and procedes to pound the enemy to dust.
"Muahahahaha!"
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Soul Transfer.
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Originally Posted by Tannim222
Hmm...looked at the original list, and read every post thus far. My conclusion: screw all that.
Give me a buff when I die! Blasters get their death buff doubled! Jumps into mob, goes down in a hail of gun fire. Character: "Defeat me? DEFEAT ME!?!" Hits wakie, and procedes to pound the enemy to dust. "Muahahahaha!" |
My guides:Dark Melee/Dark Armor/Soul Mastery, Illusion Control/Kinetics/Primal Forces Mastery, Electric Armor
"Dark Armor is a complete waste as a tanking set."
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We could sit here and sling anecdotes at each other all day I imagine.|
Originally Posted by Tyger42
Some people are more easily frustrated than others. *Shrug* Having no death penalty can lead to people quitting because they're bored. No risk to them makes the game too trivial. So, it goes both ways. I'd be willing to bet, though, that I'd be able to turn up more people who quit over the game being too easy than you can turn up who quit over the debt being too harsh.
I've also seen plenty of posts on this forum over the years from people who intentionally played in perma-debt because they felt leveling was too quick. >< |
A Death Penalty does not in and of itself create challenge IMHO. What it often does do is lead to people playing extremely cautiously and bog the whole game down. (Again, my opinion.)
I think CoH's penalty is just fine and see no compelling reason to change it. I have not seen large numbers of people that are so inept they are causing team wipes constantly. (I say that because someone earlier in the thread brought up the notion of people learning the game faster in order to avoid dying.)
I also pose the question again: why does there even need to be a death penalty? Is not having to run all the way back to the mission with the knowledge a dumb AI smacked you around bad enough? Perhaps I'm just weird, but I don't like it when my characters die and I try to avoid it.
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Having been playing for 7 years, MMOs in general for 11, this is the first I've seen that abbreviation. Sorry it's so shocking that the term your little group of friends use isn't universal....
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Originally Posted by Bad_Influence
Surely someone as elite as you knows the abbreviation for points of damage.
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I'm not saying it creates challenge, just provides incentive to avoid death because there are a lot of people for whom death in itself isn't enough of an incentive. My opinion is that lack of consequences bog the game down just as bad, but in this instance by making fights take longer because people keep getting defeated due to pure recklessness.|
Originally Posted by Steel_Shaman
We could sit here and sling anecdotes at each other all day I imagine.
A Death Penalty does not in and of itself create challenge IMHO. What it often does do is lead to people playing extremely cautiously and bog the whole game down. (Again, my opinion.) |
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| I think CoH's penalty is just fine and see no compelling reason to change it. I have not seen large numbers of people that are so inept they are causing team wipes constantly. (I say that because someone earlier in the thread brought up the notion of people learning the game faster in order to avoid dying.) |
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| I also pose the question again: why does there even need to be a death penalty? Is not having to run all the way back to the mission with the knowledge a dumb AI smacked you around bad enough? Perhaps I'm just weird, but I don't like it when my characters die and I try to avoid it. |
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(Which is arguably nothing with patrol xp now.)
I agree, though, I'd leave it alone.