Post about Incarnate Rewards is coming


Airhammer

 

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Originally Posted by Aura_Familia View Post
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Actually it sounds like the devs didn't communicate about how the system worked all that well. Your quote says "but since no one really confirmed whether it was reward or random since THEY TOLD US TWO DIFFERENT THINGS." so again, I don't think the testers are at fault.

You could have had ever player in the game testing, but if the devs don't state exactly HOW it's SUPPOSSED to work, no amount of testers will EVER be able to see if it's working as intended.
It's a very fair point you make. I think looking back, it's probably enough to say that regardless of the reasons, the i20 beta didn't work as well as it could/should have.

Thus, moving forward an effort must be made to fix it, as Posi indicated they wish to do. I'm saying that any effort not made to rebuild confidence is likely going to be less than a success.


 

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Originally Posted by MyLexiconIsHugeSon View Post
It's a very fair point you make. I think looking back, it's probably enough to say that regardless of the reasons, the i20 beta didn't work as well as it could/should have.

Thus, moving forward an effort must be made to fix it, as Posi indicated they wish to do. I'm saying that any effort not made to rebuild confidence is likely going to be less than a success.
Agreed.


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Originally Posted by all_hell View Post
If they're gonna use her for these sorts of things, cut her a check.
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So... eating lunch and hitting refresh on the forums, and every time the little twirly hourglass comes up I hear the theme from Jeopardy playing in my head...


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Originally Posted by galadiman View Post
Gonna have to speak up here... have you been here longer than your postcount/joindate implies?
He has.


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Posted

Something else that struck me, as I thought about that other post.

The number of times it was speculated that the participation reward scheme(s) were being viewed as something that could be implemented across the entire game.

This is a huge issue and something that would also warrant comment as to the current plan (I get that no one can predict the future), because if true, it has far greater implications than just the iTrials.


 

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You don't have to have been around long or been a highly active forum poster to make a good point.

The point that Arcanaville, despite her intelligence, competence, and past record, should either be hired-slash-headhunted by the dev team, perhaps as a consultant, or else treated with no more seriousness than any other player, isn't a bad one. Not because of anything negative about Arcanaville, but because it's bad public relations on the part of NCSoft/Paragon Studios. It's not an attack on her, her credibility, or her contributions.

It's pointing out an elephant in the forums' room: the fact that Arcanaville is given a higher degree of consideration by the devs is fairly clear, but how much of a higher degree, and when, isn't. That's sort of the worst possible situation, too, because if it were entirely secret nobody would know; if it were entirely transparent everyone could appreciate being levelled with honestly. With its being an "open secret," people who fall into the category of "not being Arcanaville" are entirely reasonably in feeling slighted by the devs - not only is someone else clearly being given more weight than they are, but nobody's even telling them how much more and on what issues.

And that's not really fair to Arcanaville either, since it can tend to attract negative attention and argumentation to her posts.

I do understand that NCSoft/Paragon Studios probably can't afford to match Arcanaville's current salary. It's clear she's very well-educated and skilled, and from what I understand of the gaming industry, most people working in it are doing it out of a passion for gaming and/or because of their creative sparks, not for the big bucks. But really, anyone regardless of competence or lack thereof, whose ideas or outright work was being used this extensively by a development team, should be credited officially at the minimum, and probably paid, too. And if it's not being used as extensively as it appears, that should be clarified, instead.


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Originally Posted by Zombie Man View Post
Better rewards!!?

The best part about that picture, is the OTHER cat.

Is the other Cat the Mastermind or EMP Defender?


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Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
I don't think the system is zero-sum. In the strict technical sense its possible the players are in indirect competition with each other:
One of my completely baseless suspicions is that there is a limit per trial to the number of Very Rares (and possibly Rares, but I've seen at least half a trial report getting rares when I was running 16 person BAF runs to see if it increased everyone's "participation").

Other players have referred to this as the "MVP" award.


 

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Originally Posted by MyLexiconIsHugeSon View Post
Thus, moving forward an effort must be made to fix it, as Posi indicated they wish to do. I'm saying that any effort not made to rebuild confidence is likely going to be less than a success.
I agree that PR is a big key here since it is likely one of the key problems with the system is psychological.

I do want to state that my in game experience does not reflect forum concern, outside of a very few characters (not people, but specific characters) that get "too many" rares/very rares. I get lots of people willing and excited to join me for trials and almost all of them work together. I have not heard a lot of griping about only getting commons, although we all wonder why we get so many uncommons (I see the large number of uncommons as a sign that many people are doing well enough in order to get bumped to a good tier of rewards).

The general population seems to be OK right now. A very vocal segment of the forums is likely spreading misinformation (sometimes innocently, and other times not). That misinformation is important to nip and counter.


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So long as this upcoming post confirms that Cannon of Justice is finally getting a nerf, I'll be happy.


 

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Originally Posted by StratoNexus View Post
I agree that PR is a big key here since it is likely one of the key problems with the system is psychological.
Yep, it's like economics -a matter of faith.


And in-game, on my server, I've had several people comment that the number of trials being run are way down, but who's to say that's because of not being satisfied by the reward system vs. the shiny of it has worn off?

On the other hand, in the server's main global channels, there has been a lot of discussion of the tactics being used now, which weren't widespread a week ago, and which may be viewed as detrimental to team/league success.


 

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Have seen a lot of "tagging" going on. A bit harder to put together trials the past couple of days, and Lambda especially is failing more than it has since the first couple of days. Have also had players sending tells to me when leading pointing out someone "tagging" and suggesting I kick them.


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Originally Posted by Snow Globe View Post
I'm expecting a road map out of this fiasco. I expect a promise to make the game fair, not only from a mechanical perspective, but an observable perspective.

The game and the players deserve nothing less.
Apparently people are mistaking this comment for wanting an immediate fix. I don't.

This expectation is that the developers are going to tell us what they are going to do to regain player trust in the system, nothing more, nothing less. If they don't regain player trust, then they are shooting themselves in the foot.




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Originally Posted by MyLexiconIsHugeSon View Post
Sorry but that stance is more absurd. She is human and can make mistakes (see her commentary on pvp numbers). At times she doesn't take into effect the human element, which is fine as a lot of numbers people don't.
I'm accused of it all the time. Its essentially never actually true. I'm fallible, and I don't always see the human element in the same way everyone else wants me to, but I actually consider being accused of being a purely numbers person to be an insult, as there's no actual evidence of that unless you believe being able to *do* math is automatically exclusive of other skills. Most of my board postings regarding the game itself are not numbers posts. They are just the ones most uniquely identified with me. Most of my posts are related to the interplay between the players and the designed gameplay.

It would probably surprise most people to know that while I do send bug reports and suggestions to the devs all the time that have numbers in them, *most* of my conversation with the devs involves how players will perceive a particular change, or how to craft a change so its perceived in the best possible light. My discussions with Castle regarding MA, for example, discussed what the numbers should be from a balance perspective, but most of my interesting discussion with him was what changes would have the greatest perceived impact. And at the moment, I haven't discussed *any* of the technical details of the participation system with the devs, except my own observations about it. Virtually all of my commentary to them involves how its being perceived by the players, and what I believe they need to do to respond to that perception.

Fundamentally, I'm a student of game design, and fundamentally speaking, gameplay is the human interface to the game mechanics. Game design is a human interface problem, not a numerical problem. However, mathematics is the language of game design, a least its mechanical components. Not every instance of *using* numbers is talking *about* numbers. I don't think most people fully appreciate the distinction.


Also, just because you disagree with my opinion on PvP numbers, doesn't mean the mistake is necessarily mine.


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Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
I'm accused of it all the time. Its essentially never actually true. I'm fallible, and I don't always see the human element in the same way everyone else wants me to, but I actually consider being accused of being a purely numbers person to be an insult, as there's no actual evidence of that unless you believe being able to *do* math is automatically exclusive of other skills. Most of my board postings regarding the game itself are not numbers posts. They are just the ones most uniquely identified with me. Most of my posts are related to the interplay between the players and the designed gameplay.

It would probably surprise most people to know that while I do send bug reports and suggestions to the devs all the time that have numbers in them, *most* of my conversation with the devs involves how players will perceive a particular change, or how to craft a change so its perceived in the best possible light. My discussions with Castle regarding MA, for example, discussed what the numbers should be from a balance perspective, but most of my interesting discussion with him was what changes would have the greatest perceived impact. And at the moment, I haven't discussed *any* of the technical details of the participation system with the devs, except my own observations about it. Virtually all of my commentary to them involves how its being perceived by the players, and what I believe they need to do to respond to that perception.

Fundamentally, I'm a student of game design, and fundamentally speaking, gameplay is the human interface to the game mechanics. Game design is a human interface problem, not a numerical problem. However, mathematics is the language of game design, a least its mechanical components. Not every instance of *using* numbers is talking *about* numbers. I don't think most people fully appreciate the distinction.
And yet my point stands - unless you have the shiny _ in your name, you should not be elevated above the rest of us by the rest of us.

You say most of your non-numbers stuff is done privately. Ok, fair enough. Who's to say it's to the same quality as your numbers stuff? Who's to say that the devs treat it with the same degree of respect as the numbers stuff? To what degree do they, in fact do so?

Short of you being infallible, which although you skirt the line of claiming, you have never actually claimed, what happens if you and someone else give opposing viewpoints and you're wrong? And yet, your opinion is heeded?

This has nothing to do about you per se, although if you want perceptions about you to be different, you're the only one who can make that happen.

This is more about we and the staff elevating any player above the others.

Should knowledgeable, intelligent players be heard? Without a doubt. Should it come at the expense of everyone else? No.

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Quote:
Also, just because you disagree with my opinion on PvP numbers, doesn't mean the mistake is necessarily mine.
And yet it doesn't mean the mistake isn't yours.

Unless you are actually claiming omniscience?


 

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Originally Posted by Positron View Post
Suffice it to say there are changes coming to give you guys a better reward experience in the next major patch.

From someone who has done ZERO Trials on LIVE -- I can't wait!!
(hopefully to say Thank You, but I reserve that right until seeing the actual changes!)



The above is a personal decision and does not reflect upon anyone nor is it directed towards anyone; it is simply a statement of fact.




Since playtime is all of (zero / zilch / nada) this weekend, maybe I ill try one tonight. Highly doubtful till they fix the turnstile system though.

Rewarding people is not something you can do based off of "things done to NPC's"... So much else goes into what our supers actually do! Healing / Buffin / Rezzing / Dieing so the entire league can get vengeance (or did that get fixed?) / Running ahead to TP people while the LeagueLeader moves people around (this go along with a raid tactic I hope to see CoX leagues using someday) / Taunting / Pulling / Making sure mobs are controlled and locked down / Giving Instructions / Actively Searching for mob type-dependant targets / Being MA or MT (Main Assist or Main Tank) / I could go on but this post is already getting lengthy.


--You also can not reward based off 'totals' from a team compared to others -- teams should normally be built 'unfairly' and 'unbalanced' to best succeed depending on what the event calls for. (not so much yet, but when the scripts get more complicated for the events it is distinct possibility)


Having joined the LFG system numerous times on several accounts and having fought ZERO mobs so far in trials (Leagues abuse LFG to 'get started' so they can then kick down to minimum and do that ugly 'F' word) does leave one thinking to oneself "Why do I waste time on this 'feature' ". The 'average cue' times are just disheatening -- 2minutes can = over an hour and normally equals a minimum of 30 minutes)


 

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Originally Posted by Flux_Vector View Post
You don't have to have been around long or been a highly active forum poster to make a good point.

The point that Arcanaville, despite her intelligence, competence, and past record, should either be hired-slash-headhunted by the dev team, perhaps as a consultant, or else treated with no more seriousness than any other player, isn't a bad one. Not because of anything negative about Arcanaville, but because it's bad public relations on the part of NCSoft/Paragon Studios. It's not an attack on her, her credibility, or her contributions.

It's pointing out an elephant in the forums' room: the fact that Arcanaville is given a higher degree of consideration by the devs is fairly clear, but how much of a higher degree, and when, isn't. That's sort of the worst possible situation, too, because if it were entirely secret nobody would know; if it were entirely transparent everyone could appreciate being levelled with honestly. With its being an "open secret," people who fall into the category of "not being Arcanaville" are entirely reasonably in feeling slighted by the devs - not only is someone else clearly being given more weight than they are, but nobody's even telling them how much more and on what issues.

And that's not really fair to Arcanaville either, since it can tend to attract negative attention and argumentation to her posts.

I do understand that NCSoft/Paragon Studios probably can't afford to match Arcanaville's current salary. It's clear she's very well-educated and skilled, and from what I understand of the gaming industry, most people working in it are doing it out of a passion for gaming and/or because of their creative sparks, not for the big bucks. But really, anyone regardless of competence or lack thereof, whose ideas or outright work was being used this extensively by a development team, should be credited officially at the minimum, and probably paid, too. And if it's not being used as extensively as it appears, that should be clarified, instead.
Well, I can tell you this. The devs do not value my subjective opinion any higher than any other player, and even if they did, I don't express it without massive disclaimers. They don't do anything just because Arcanaville wants them to. I wanted them to look at MA for five years. QED.

What I *do* have is the credibility to get them to *look* at something if I feel its important to look at, because I'm a) very consistent, and usually correct, and b) I don't nag them about it once I've alerted them to it.

However, once they look at it, what happens next is 1 part Arcana, 999 parts Paragon Studios. You have to remember that MMO development is a collaboration. Its not Arcana talking to Paragon Studios. Its, say, Arcana talking to Castle, and Castle talking to the three people on his powers team, and the Castle talking to Positron and War Witch, and talking to the QA team, and talking to lots of other developers. Sure, Castle might value my opinion to a point, but I'm not one voice out of two, I'm one voice out of twenty, or fifty, and an outsider voice at that. *And* then they also consider the opinions of the rest of the playerbase and what they will think, which means I become one voice out of thousands of outsiders and then dozens of insiders, none of which I outrank.

I shoot things off to the devs, but my credibility extends to being listened to as someone who tends not to steer the devs into wild goose chases. If they wanted me to actually work on the game as an insider, they would hire me to do so and credit me accordingly, as they would anyone else working for them. I don't dictate anything to the devs, and they do not cater to my preferences.


And for the record, I have been given no specific information about the participation algorithm, so I know very little about its specifics, beyond what I've divined on my own. And in this specific case, me being me is specifically why I'm currently not asking, and why they are currently not telling. If they told me its details, I would be unable to discuss them, and also severely limited in the testing data I could share. So long as I don't know, I can comment on whether or not my testing observations match what the devs say about the system, or are going to say. Not many people are doing direct statistical analysis of the system and telling people about it, and telling me anything would essentially eliminate one of them from the forums.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tamerlayne View Post
From someone who has done ZERO Trails on LIVE -- I can't wait!!
(hopefully to say Thank You, but I reserve that right until seeing the actual changes!)



The above is a personal decision and does not reflect upon anyone nor is it directed towards anyone; it is simply a statement of fact.




Since playtime is all of (zero / zilch / nada) this weekend, maybe I ill try one tonight. Highly doubtful till they fix the turnstile system though.

Rewarding people is not something you can do based off of "things done to NPC's"... So much else goes into what our supers actually do! Healing / Buffin / Rezzing / Dieing so the entire league can get vengeance (or did that get fixed?) / Running ahead to TP people while the LeagueLeader moves people around (this go along with a raid tactic I hope to see CoX leagues using someday) / Taunting / Pulling / Making sure mobs are controlled and locked down / Giving Instructions / Actively Searching for mob type-dependant targets / Being MA or MT (Main Assist or Main Tank) / I could go on but this post is already getting lengthy.


--You also can not reward based off 'totals' from a team compared to others -- teams should normally be built 'unfairly' and 'unbalanced' to best succeed depending on what the event calls for. (not so much yet, but when the scripts get more complicated for the events it is distinct possibility)


Having joined the LFG system numerous times on several accounts and having fought ZERO mobs so far in trials (Leagues abuse LFG to 'get started' so they can then kick down to minimum and do that ugly 'F' word) does leave one thinking to oneself "Why do I waste time on this 'feature' ". The 'average cue' times are just disheatening -- 2minutes can = over an hour and normally equals a minimum of 30 minutes)
If this is what you are hoping they fix you are going to be greatly disappointed.

the playerbase has spoken. the LFG is useless as a feature of I20, as most people form their league BEFORE queuing and usually at the maximum and in Pocket D or RWZ. No fix the devs can do can change that except maybe putting the ACTUAL wait time for queuing. (thus further showing how useless the LFG queue is)

I'd advise just going to Pocket D or RWZ and b-casting if you seriously want to start doing Incarnate Content.


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Originally Posted by MyLexiconIsHugeSon View Post


And yet it doesn't mean the mistake isn't yours.

Unless you are actually claiming omniscience?
She isn't omniscient but she knows enough about the game engine, its algorithms and the power structure of the game that her opinion is a good one.
Remember she's been consulting, more or less, for close to six (?) years.
She can also explain the math behind the processes, even breaking it down to layman's terms.

Arcanaville isn't Santa Claus, but Mathzilla might be a closer approximation.

You can defer to her or not, but I've generally found her to be reasonable and willing to bridge between players and Devs even when the situation is one she personally disagrees with. I personally don't believe her to be malicious or trying to skew rewards/elements in her own favour, your mileage may vary.


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Any chance of fixing the tank taunt sound while you guys are at it? For some reason it was switched to the presence pool power sound and really, it just kind of stinks.


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Originally Posted by Neuronia View Post
She isn't omniscient but she knows enough about the game engine, its algorithms and the power structure of the game that her opinion is a good one.
Remember she's been consulting, more or less, for close to six (?) years.
She can also explain the math behind the processes, even breaking it down to layman's terms.
Conceded before there was every a question of this.

Doesn't make her or her opinions infallible, just like everyone else.

Indeed, making statements like, "Also, just because you disagree with my opinion on PvP numbers, doesn't mean the mistake is necessarily mine" proves that she is.

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You can defer to her or not, but I've generally found her to be reasonable and willing to bridge between players and Devs even when the situation is one she personally disagrees with. I personally don't believe her to be malicious or trying to skew rewards/elements in her own favour, your mileage may vary.
Let me stop you there. I do not, nor would I, support any such accusation of motive leveled at Arcanaville nor anyone else who's posted in here in the last few days.

Indeed, attitude aside, I'm saying that none of this is about her. I'm saying it's about we players and possibly the devs. Look back to my first post this morning that brought that out and look at the post I quoted in it.


 

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Originally Posted by MyLexiconIsHugeSon View Post
And yet my point stands - unless you have the shiny _ in your name, you should not be elevated above the rest of us by the rest of us.
Nor do I ask anyone to do so. However, I do believe people can and should judge the relative credibility of all forum posters based on past history. Some people grant me higher credibility, some don't. I think if people are judging me by my past statements and record, that's fair either way.

I'm just one example of players granting other players a certain degree of credibility in certain areas. There are or were players considered authorities on force fields, on dark armor, on stalkers, on base building, on marketeering, on PvP, on badges. Heck: I never made it into a City of Heroes comic. And I'm pretty sure Iggy sleeps with a copy of Mids running under his pillow. Their opinions on their respective areas of expertise will be generally held in higher regard on those subjects than yours will - or mine. And that's because they earned their credibility in those areas, and you and I have not. The fact that other players respect them more than you and me in those areas is not a bad thing. They are more equal than you because they've done more than you, and proven themselves to the player community more than you.


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You say most of your non-numbers stuff is done privately.
No, I said most of my posts related to the game are non-numbers posts. Its not like its hard to find my posts. Count them yourself.


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Short of you being infallible, which although you skirt the line of claiming, you have never actually claimed, what happens if you and someone else give opposing viewpoints and you're wrong? And yet, your opinion is heeded?
That's a good question. Let me ask the counter-question. Suppose its discovered that all of your participation algorithm "tactics" don't work, and you were personally responsible for at least encouraging people to attempt them, even if you didn't do so singularly. And this causes significant damage to the player community as a result of people hearing your words and being influenced by them. *If* that's true that would be more harm generated in one shot than I could possibly be accused of doing in seven years. What's the remedy for that?

I'll tell you what the remedy is for me. That doesn't happen for me. And the reason why is that while I'm perfectly willing to state my wild, unsubstantiated, personally biased opinions on matters that are for pure discussion purposes only, when it comes to something like "what does the participation algorithm in the trials do" I know I'm playing with fire. So I don't say it unless I'm certain. I don't jump to conclusions. I caution people to reserve judgment on matters we don't have enough information about. I don't sensationalize. And I provide as much detail about my observations as possible, so if I *have* made an error someone else might be able to spot it. And because of that, I don't have the problem I mention above, in seven years of posting. Someone might take my opinion as gospel when I myself caution them not to. I can't help that. But I've never told the playerbase I was certain about something that caused them to take detrimental actions for themselves or others, because I take full responsibility for my posts, and I factor in how every word will be interpreted by the community when I post. I sometimes rewrite them several times to ensure I am not misleading people to dangerous places or actions. I exercise restraint when talking about the game, and how players might play the game.

Do you?


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Posted

Why you guys are arguing about hypotheticals like this, I dunno.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by MyLexiconIsHugeSon View Post
Conceded before there was every a question of this.

Doesn't make her or her opinions infallible, just like everyone else.

Indeed, making statements like, "Also, just because you disagree with my opinion on PvP numbers, doesn't mean the mistake is necessarily mine" proves that she is.
I'm finding it increasingly odd that you consider my disagreeing with you proof of my fallibility, because it logically presumes infallibility on your part, as you're stating that disagreeing with you *proves* error.

That's something I don't claim.


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