I hear MM got ripped off so tell me how it works
By
15bribri15,
Posted on: 2011-04-18 14:58 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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Back when my Earth/Storm 'troller was about level 20, I was lamenting the low damage output while soloing and had a "brilliant" plan. I would use my second build to take the various pool power attacks (boxing, kick, air superiority, flurry) and melee my way into victory!|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
Build 2: Petless/Trapless man build that primarily uses whirlwind, patron powers, and pulse rifle blasts to affect as many enemies as possible.
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It was a dumb idea and quickly abandoned. But this could be my chance to resurrect that build! Add in more APP attacks and I'll be in business makin' my rares.
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I like the direction the above suggestion is going. Make a determination if the player is a "leech" or not. Leeches get the min reward, everybody else gets something random.|
Originally Posted by Hercules
The best solution IMO is to:
1. Change the formula to account for all the powersets that they apparantly didnt code for. (i.e. some AE attacks, debuffs, buffs, PET attacks, etc ) 2. Use this formula to ONLY determine a minimum threshold of participation. I would require: - the person has to have moved away from the mission entrance, and NOT via /follow - the person has to have used a minimum number of targeted powers ( take the mission duration and say the person has to have activated "X" number of powers per second ) - the person has to have used more than a certain minimum number of powers ( i.e. just spamming a single target heal over and over doesnt cut it ) - the person has to have participated in each phase of the mission 3. Once the formula determines that a person actually participated, make the rewards table random. (i.e. common=40%, uncommon=30%, rare=20%, very rare =10%, or whatever proportion they determine is fair ) 4. If the formula determines that they didn't participate, they get the crap reward. Not perfect, but better than what's in place. |
I'm still struggling to figure out what "problem" the devs were solving when they introduced this. I've never heard complaints that "My Brute did 40% of the work on this 8-member tf but I get the same reward everyone else did." As mentioned earlier, there's a policing mechanism for leeches (kick button). I've never seen anyone express a desire for any more granular rewards system.
Global = Hedgefund (or some derivation thereof)
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Originally Posted by Deacon_NA
[...]I'm still struggling to figure out what "problem" the devs were solving when they introduced this. I've never heard complaints that "My Brute did 40% of the work on this 8-member tf but I get the same reward everyone else did." As mentioned earlier, there's a policing mechanism for leeches (kick button). I've never seen anyone express a desire for any more granular rewards system.
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Originally Posted by Deacon_NA
I like the direction the above suggestion is going. Make a determination if the player is a "leech" or not. Leeches get the min reward, everybody else gets something random.
I'm still struggling to figure out what "problem" the devs were solving when they introduced this. I've never heard complaints that "My Brute did 40% of the work on this 8-member tf but I get the same reward everyone else did." As mentioned earlier, there's a policing mechanism for leeches (kick button). I've never seen anyone express a desire for any more granular rewards system. |
The system is very, very like a system from another MMO with little metal model ancestors hailing from Britain (except ours are instanced). They seemingly liked the system so much they decided to also copy the terrible Particpation Table that other nameless MMO uses.
Pity they didn't decide to instead copy the "Public Teams near you looking for members" rather than the crappy turnstyle system we ended up with.
Played last night as bots/ff.
I decided to try instead of buffing the whole league with double bubble like i usually do, to not buff anyone at all. Didnt use any powers at all from /ff except the 2 big bubbles.
I usually get 80%common, 20% uncommon on good days.
I ran it 3 times like that. Got one uncommon, and 2 commons.
So from my experience bubbling the entire league makes no difference. Henceforth i will only bubble my own team from now on.
Another piece to the puzzle...
I've been running my main, my fire/fire/fire blaster, who is an AoE monster, through the trials for the last 2 weeks. The first few days I received 1 Very Rare and 3 or 4 Rares. Since then I have been on an unbelievable Uncommon streak. Since reading about "participation" based rewards I tried a few times to spend a little extra effort hitting more targets to no avail. Then it dawned on me...
The first few days most people didn't have Judgement. So, I'd load into BAF in phase 1 and people would be slowly working through the mobs to get the first 40 kills. I'd come in and fire away with fireball and stand there with my hot feet and blazing aura, affect large numbers.
Now, with my slow loading computer, I get into phase 1 and everyone has used their Judgement powers and its pretty much over, no real time to affect anything. I'm thinking the participation in phase 1 has some heavy weight to it.
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Just to add more anecdotal evidence (backed by some drop logs I have), I primarily play an Ice/Storm/Ice controller when running the trials. With my setup, I rely heavily on pseudopets and actual pets for damage output: Freezing Rain, Lightning Storm, Tornado, Ice Storm and Jack Frost. I use all those back by Frostbite, which is extremely low damaging, to keep stuff in place. My result? I have mostly gotten rare drops during the trials. I am in a significant shortage of commons and uncommons for my crafting needs, but have a ton of rares which I can do nothing with. I have not gotten a VR once, however.
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Originally Posted by Steel_Shaman
If this really is the case, that's crazy. It completely screws over Storm Summoning characters.
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Main Character: Ice/Storm/Ice Controller (Justice, 1340 badges)
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Well, it could be worse...they could make PVE like PVP...oh wait that is exactly what they are trying to do....
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Originally Posted by Infernus_Hades
Most amusing.
So not only do I have to farm a dev approved farm to get further incarnate powers - I have to do it in their way to get the reward! Wonderful. |
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If you have too many rares, you can break some down for threads to craft commons/uncommons. It's a bit of a bad conversion rate, but there's not much else to do with them once you have enough, unless you wanna buy a very rare.
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Originally Posted by flipside
Just to add more anecdotal evidence (backed by some drop logs I have), I primarily play an Ice/Storm/Ice controller when running the trials. With my setup, I rely heavily on pseudopets and actual pets for damage output: Freezing Rain, Lightning Storm, Tornado, Ice Storm and Jack Frost. I use all those back by Frostbite, which is extremely low damaging, to keep stuff in place. My result? I have mostly gotten rare drops during the trials. I am in a significant shortage of commons and uncommons for my crafting needs, but have a ton of rares which I can do nothing with. I have not gotten a VR once, however.
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Having Vengeance and Fallout slotted for recharge means never having to say you're sorry.
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You mean a ghost town?
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Originally Posted by Gemini_2099
Well, it could be worse...they could make PVE like PVP...oh wait that is exactly what they are trying to do....
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Yup, but I'm not really in a hurry to be honest and do have enough influence to do some "rare to very rare" conversions if I need to. I did break down one very rare for some threads to get a tier 2 crafted but I think that's about it for now. I guess I need to participate "less" so I get some commons/uncommons.
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Originally Posted by Kelenar
If you have too many rares, you can break some down for threads to craft commons/uncommons. It's a bit of a bad conversion rate, but there's not much else to do with them once you have enough, unless you wanna buy a very rare.
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Main Character: Ice/Storm/Ice Controller (Justice, 1340 badges)
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I'd just break down your astrals for extra threads and make your commons/uncommons from those.
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Originally Posted by flipside
Yup, but I'm not really in a hurry to be honest and do have enough influence to do some "rare to very rare" conversions if I need to. I did break down one very rare for some threads to get a tier 2 crafted but I think that's about it for now. I guess I need to participate "less" so I get some commons/uncommons.
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Originally Posted by Back Alley Brawler
Did you just use "casual gamer" and "purpled-out warshade" in the same sentence?
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The devs may have made a participation system that sometimes rewards being a dick, but only we can choose to be one. If the devs can lead us to screw real people with pretend gear, that's less a reflection on their stupidity and more on our sociopathy.|
Originally Posted by atomicdeath
Played last night as bots/ff.
I decided to try instead of buffing the whole league with double bubble like i usually do, to not buff anyone at all. Didnt use any powers at all from /ff except the 2 big bubbles. I usually get 80%common, 20% uncommon on good days. I ran it 3 times like that. Got one uncommon, and 2 commons. So from my experience bubbling the entire league makes no difference. Henceforth i will only bubble my own team from now on. |
No reward in this game is worth enough for me to screw my team/league mates, so under no circumstances will I choose to help or not help my team/league mates based on what a participation algorithm says. Anyone who says they are being forced to abandon their league members is making excuses for their purely voluntary crappy behavior, an excuse I do not accept.
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Free will is what it is. |
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
The devs may have made a participation system that sometimes rewards being a dick, but only we can choose to be one. If the devs can lead us to screw real people with pretend gear, that's less a reflection on their stupidity and more on our sociopathy.
No reward in this game is worth enough for me to screw my team/league mates, so under no circumstances will I choose to help or not help my team/league mates based on what a participation algorithm says. Anyone who says they are being forced to abandon their league members is making excuses for their purely voluntary crappy behavior, an excuse I do not accept. |
Of course people are not relieve of any individual of responsibility for their actions. However, I suspect it can be demonstrated and is well known that rewarding certain behavior increase the incidence of the rewarded behavior. So there is some responsibility that rest on the shoulders of individuals who decide to reward the behavior.
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Bull. I'm not screwing someone over when I capture their queen in chess. That's part of the competitive nature of the game. I am not being a dick if I select the job you were going to pick in Puerto Rico and cost you a dozen points as we race for the bigger total at the end. |
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
The devs may have made a participation system that sometimes rewards being a dick, but only we can choose to be one. If the devs can lead us to screw real people with pretend gear, that's less a reflection on their stupidity and more on our sociopathy.
No reward in this game is worth enough for me to screw my team/league mates, so under no circumstances will I choose to help or not help my team/league mates based on what a participation algorithm says. Anyone who says they are being forced to abandon their league members is making excuses for their purely voluntary crappy behavior, an excuse I do not accept. |
The devs are the ones who decided a competitive model was better for the game than a cooperative one. It's a stupid decision, but it's the one they made.
Maybe I can't bring myself to just randomly tag things without killing them, but I'll be damned if I sit here and let you lay this shitstorm entirely at the feet of the players when they are simply playing the game the developers clearly wanted or at least should have been able to predict.
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People will always do what's best for THEM, not what's best for everybody. When you go to the store to get some item you really want or need, and you find out that there's only one total item left in stock, would you still buy it? Or would you say "Nah, I don't want to screw over everybody else that will want to buy this, so even though I desperatly want it, I will leave it for someone else"?|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
If the devs can lead us to screw real people with pretend gear, that's less a reflection on their stupidity and more on our sociopathy.
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That's a rhetorical question. Everybody already knows what you, and everybody else would do.
Likewise in this game, people will do what benefits their toon. They might not specifically go out of their way to screw over others, but if their actions do that, they won't care, as long as they're getting what they want themselves. It's basic human nature. Nobody here is Jesus Christ or Mother Theresa.
So I do blame the devs. If you allow a system to be exploited for personal gain, it will be exploited for personal gain....always, without any exceptions.
The system needs to be random, pure and simple. If people use that to leech, so be it. At least it will prevent those people that greatly contribute from being ripped off. I'd rather see the least valuable player getting a good reward for doing nothing....instead of the MVP getting crap even though he's the MVP.
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I blame the devs for making an exploitable system. I blame the players for exploiting their fellow players. I blame each for the conduct under their control.
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Originally Posted by rsclark
Bull. I'm not screwing someone over when I capture their queen in chess. That's part of the competitive nature of the game. I am not being a dick if I select the job you were going to pick in Puerto Rico and cost you a dozen points as we race for the bigger total at the end.
The devs are the ones who decided a competitive model was better for the game than a cooperative one. It's a stupid decision, but it's the one they made. Maybe I can't bring myself to just randomly tag things without killing them, but I'll be damned if I sit here and let you lay this shitstorm entirely at the feet of the players when they are simply playing the game the developers clearly wanted or at least should have been able to predict. |
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Not always.
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Originally Posted by Supermax
People will always do what's best for THEM, not what's best for everybody. When you go to the store to get some item you really want or need, and you find out that there's only one total item left in stock, would you still buy it? Or would you say "Nah, I don't want to screw over everybody else that will want to buy this, so even though I desperatly want it, I will leave it for someone else"?
That's a rhetorical question. Everybody already knows what you, and everybody else would do. |
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Another analogy for you. You have a business that competes directly with another person's business. You steal a client from the other person, therefore making money for yourself while stealing it from your competitor.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
I blame the players for exploiting their fellow players.
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Have you "exploited" your fellow human being in this case? The answer is no. You acted in your own best interests, the same thing your competitor would have done if given the chance. This is normal behavior and the basis for capitalism, not something to criticize.
The only solution is communism, where everybody gets the same stuff. While that has been proven to not work in real life, it most definitely does work in video games. The ONLY way to keep people from acting like people is to remove their option of doing so.
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Yes, extreme cases like that can be exceptions. But the Japanese are pretty unique in that sense. Their sense of community is on a whole different level from other cultures. When I made my comment, I was thinking of basically all the OTHER cultures in the world |
Originally Posted by PumBumbler
Not always.
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When you build a reward system, you are implicitly building "the game."
I used to play a text based game several years ago that had a very elaborate injury and healing system. Beyond just having "hit points" the system included broken bones, internal and external injuries, poisons, and diseases. Along with it came a character class called "Empaths" who were capable of healing these various things. In addition, there was a First Aid skill player characters could use to tend their external injuries themselves.
So, how do you think this system played out? It actually worked well, but with a few serious hiccups the developers didn't anticipate.
You see, this game was "skill based." The more you performed a certain kind of action, the better you got at doing it. To earn the First Aid skill, you had to tend wounds. Fair enough. But there is an inherent problem: this incents you to intentionally get injured and then avoid healing. And sure enough, that's what the player base did. They would intentionally take off armor, teleport into walls, cast harmful spells at each other, and fall down mine shafts in attempts to get a coveted "bleeder." A healer "stealing" your bleeder was also among the worst offenses that could occur, in some cases leading the "victim" to PVP with the healer. Injury became a commodity.
It got even more complicated for the Empath class themselves. In the early days of the game, the requirements for leveling up an Empath didn't require any actual healing. Many Empaths healed anyway, because otherwise why play a healer? But because healing left you with serious injuries to tend to (the healing system consisted of "taking" other people's wounds onto yourself and then healing them on yourself), Empaths who never healed ended up rising through the ranks much faster than the ones who played actual... well... empaths. Sometime later a new skill was introduced to track how much the player healed. But then the original problem came back even harder: now Empaths became wound vampires fighting each other over patients, who were the main source of XP they needed to advance.
The whole Empath advancement issue only finally got settled when the "healing" skill was expanded to allow many different ways to learn, minimizing the pressure of having to have a constant stream of wounded allies to heal. The First Aid system, to my knowledge, never really was. In fact, it was made worse by developers trying to convince players not to hold on to bleeders by giving them a random chance to develop a life threatening disease if they held on to their bleeder too long. End result: players occasionally bleeding out in the field, because with no other way to learn the skill, the chance of dying from rot at random was still better than not advancing.
The lesson in all of this is? Basically, don't lead your players to a well and expect them not to drink from it.
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The problem is we're all in the same business. Stealing from your co-workers will often get you fired.|
Originally Posted by Supermax
Another analogy for you. You have a business that competes directly with another person's business. You steal a client from the other person, therefore making money for yourself while stealing it from your competitor.
Have you "exploited" your fellow human being in this case? The answer is no. You acted in your own best interests, the same thing your competitor would have done if given the chance. This is normal behavior and the basis for capitalism, not something to criticize. The only solution is communism, where everybody gets the same stuff. While that has been proven to not work in real life, it most definitely does work in video games. The ONLY way to keep people from acting like people is to remove their option of doing so. |
Trying to say that if we don't let players screw other players then the free world collapses is innovative, if ludicrous. Also, I *do* run a business that is in direct competition with other businesses. I don't steal customers. I compete for their business, when the customer declares that they are in competitive play. Otherwise, not really. I guess I run a commune, since that's the only other alternative.
If Adam Smith is the only thing you understand, then I'll translate for you. The free market principle contains as a necessary assumption everyone having access to the correct and relevant information upon which to make any market decision. Failing to disclose information is contrary to the free flow of information necessary for market participants to make an informed decision. I'm disclosing the fact that I consider everyone who screws their team mates for self gain to be a jerk. This allows players to factor that piece of information into their decision making process, and to decide if that piece of information is relevant to their cost/benefit analysis. This disclosure is necessary to ensure people make informed decisions because to do otherwise would hide a potentially material cost of a decision.
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I want to point out you are on the internet.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
The devs may have made a participation system that sometimes rewards being a dick, but only we can choose to be one. If the devs can lead us to screw real people with pretend gear, that's less a reflection on their stupidity and more on our sociopathy.
No reward in this game is worth enough for me to screw my team/league mates, so under no circumstances will I choose to help or not help my team/league mates based on what a participation algorithm says. Anyone who says they are being forced to abandon their league members is making excuses for their purely voluntary crappy behavior, an excuse I do not accept. |
Sociopathy is the norm.
When something good happens to me, I can never enjoy it....
I am always too busy looking for the inevitable punchline...
BEHOLD THE POWER OF CHEESE!
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Ah, DR. I have many fond memories of that game. Not, however, of the hourly rate I was paying AOL when I first joined the game...
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Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
I used to play a text based game several years ago that had a very elaborate injury and healing system. Beyond just having "hit points" the system included broken bones, internal and external injuries, poisons, and diseases. Along with it came a character class called "Empaths" who were capable of healing these various things. In addition, there was a First Aid skill player characters could use to tend their external injuries themselves.
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Hazel Black - Mind/Psi D
Stephanie Winters - Nightwidow
Jacqui Frost - Cold/Ice D
Jacqui Embers - Fire/Kin C
Simone Templar - Fire/MM B
Mallory Woods - Kin/Rad D
Sanguine Melody - Grav/Sonic C
Fumina Hara - Plant/Storm C
Nutmeg - Warshade
Lauren Wu - SS/WP B
Most amusing.
So not only do I have to farm a dev approved farm to get further incarnate powers - I have to do it in their way to get the reward!
Wonderful.