I hear MM got ripped off so tell me how it works
By
15bribri15,
Posted on: 2011-04-18 14:58 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
Quote:
It's also a terribly flawed assumption, anyways, since access to perfect information is impossible. In a scenario like this, it's not merely the perfect information of how the system works, but what effects your particular actions will have on the social system you're involved in. If you were a Controller and just spammed the heck out of your AoE immobilize and did nothing else to maximize rewards, this would potentially have a detrimental effect to your standing in the social setting of the server... or it might potentially not, depending on how perceptive the people you play with are. Without perfect information for how others might react, a rational actor might then make a decision based around marginal benefit: is the marginal benefit (more rewards) greater than the marginal cost (people on my server dislike me)? |
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
If Adam Smith is the only thing you understand, then I'll translate for you. The free market principle contains as a necessary assumption everyone having access to the correct and relevant information upon which to make any market decision. Failing to disclose information is contrary to the free flow of information necessary for market participants to make an informed decision.
|
I can only speak for myself, but, in the absence of perfect information, I'd much rather just do my job and then provide suggestions for how the system could be altered to accomodate me doing my job, rather than being overtly greedy. Even if I did have perfect information and was certain I would not get caught, that doesn't necessarily mean I wouldn't do what I considered to be the "right thing," in any case, since I, perhaps, enjoy doing my job of controlling things and watching them beat eachother up than hitting the AoE immobilize button and watching reruns of The Sopranos.
Basically what I'm saying here is that the rational actor model is horse dollop and the argument of "but that's what everyone else would do!" is equally silly.
Quote:
Yes it is.
|
Originally Posted by Vermain
It's also a terribly flawed assumption
|
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
Quote:
Would this be DR?|
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
When you build a reward system, you are implicitly building "the game."
I used to play a text based game several years ago that had a very elaborate injury and healing system. Beyond just having "hit points" the system included broken bones, internal and external injuries, poisons, and diseases. Along with it came a character class called "Empaths" who were capable of healing these various things. In addition, there was a First Aid skill player characters could use to tend their external injuries themselves. So, how do you think this system played out? It actually worked well, but with a few serious hiccups the developers didn't anticipate. You see, this game was "skill based." The more you performed a certain kind of action, the better you got at doing it. To earn the First Aid skill, you had to tend wounds. Fair enough. But there is an inherent problem: this incents you to intentionally get injured and then avoid healing. And sure enough, that's what the player base did. They would intentionally take off armor, teleport into walls, cast harmful spells at each other, and fall down mine shafts in attempts to get a coveted "bleeder." A healer "stealing" your bleeder was also among the worst offenses that could occur, in some cases leading the "victim" to PVP with the healer. Injury became a commodity. It got even more complicated for the Empath class themselves. In the early days of the game, the requirements for leveling up an Empath didn't require any actual healing. Many Empaths healed anyway, because otherwise why play a healer? But because healing left you with serious injuries to tend to (the healing system consisted of "taking" other people's wounds onto yourself and then healing them on yourself), Empaths who never healed ended up rising through the ranks much faster than the ones who played actual... well... empaths. Sometime later a new skill was introduced to track how much the player healed. But then the original problem came back even harder: now Empaths became wound vampires fighting each other over patients, who were the main source of XP they needed to advance. The whole Empath advancement issue only finally got settled when the "healing" skill was expanded to allow many different ways to learn, minimizing the pressure of having to have a constant stream of wounded allies to heal. The First Aid system, to my knowledge, never really was. In fact, it was made worse by developers trying to convince players not to hold on to bleeders by giving them a random chance to develop a life threatening disease if they held on to their bleeder too long. End result: players occasionally bleeding out in the field, because with no other way to learn the skill, the chance of dying from rot at random was still better than not advancing. The lesson in all of this is? Basically, don't lead your players to a well and expect them not to drink from it. |
Yes, good game.
Dark Bard, Zoobait, Debacle
jmsb
Por vezes d� vontade...
chucknorriss
speak american godamnit
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Necromatic
Would this be DR?
Yes, good game. |
Yes, it was DragonRealms, which is actually still around. I wish more MMOs would poach ideas from it.
* Tex just bit the dust!
* Tex just disentigrated!
Ok maybe not EVERY idea.
(I always target Xibar when I mean Katamba...)
Quote:
We enter Lambda. I take three steps and crash/mapserve/.pigg error. Immediately relog and rejoin and kill/buff/debuff to the end...and get 10 threads?|
Originally Posted by Hercules
The best solution IMO is to:
1. Change the formula to account for all the powersets that they apparantly didnt code for. (i.e. some AE attacks, debuffs, buffs, PET attacks, etc ) 2. Use this formula to ONLY determine a minimum threshold of participation. I would require: - the person has to have moved away from the mission entrance, and NOT via /follow - the person has to have used a minimum number of targeted powers ( take the mission duration and say the person has to have activated "X" number of powers per second ) - the person has to have used more than a certain minimum number of powers ( i.e. just spamming a single target heal over and over doesnt cut it ) - the person has to have participated in each phase of the mission 3. Once the formula determines that a person actually participated, make the rewards table random. (i.e. common=40%, uncommon=30%, rare=20%, very rare =10%, or whatever proportion they determine is fair ) 4. If the formula determines that they didn't participate, they get the crap reward. Not perfect, but better than what's in place. |
Another try...no aggro control holy pigeons everything's targeting me BLARG I dead...get back up SPLAT Walker falls on me. Sigh. Get rezzed, random missile NOVA FIST LOLOLOL oh lord my Attacks Per Minute is way down...ten threads...
Basically, per phase and Powers Activated as per trial duration don't work. Granted, these situations won't happen a lot. Many variations of them can, however.
Everything else seems fine though.
Quote:
Ahh, a fellow Moon Mage. prep tk throw =]
|
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
Yes, it was DragonRealms, which is actually still around. I wish more MMOs would poach ideas from it.
* Tex just bit the dust! * Tex just disentigrated! Ok maybe not EVERY idea. (I always target Xibar when I mean Katamba...) |
Dark Bard, Zoobait, Debacle
jmsb
Por vezes d� vontade...
chucknorriss
speak american godamnit
Quote:
Mmmm, same here. I haven't used my MMs but my Fortunata and Soldier have problem getting "commons". I have whole bunch of Uncommon and Rares. |
Originally Posted by flipside
Just to add more anecdotal evidence (backed by some drop logs I have), I primarily play an Ice/Storm/Ice controller when running the trials. With my setup, I rely heavily on pseudopets and actual pets for damage output: Freezing Rain, Lightning Storm, Tornado, Ice Storm and Jack Frost. I use all those back by Frostbite, which is extremely low damaging, to keep stuff in place. My result? I have mostly gotten rare drops during the trials. I am in a significant shortage of commons and uncommons for my crafting needs, but have a ton of rares which I can do nothing with. I have not gotten a VR once, however.
|
So I guess even when the pets are not helping towards the reward, you must have something that is counted towards. In your case, you help by using aoe immb.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
Quote:
I disagree completely. How do you figure we're in the same business? I really couldn't care less about your toon, and I'm sure you feel the same way towards mine. Doesn't mean I want to see you fail, but I'm not going to be crying all night if you do. Likewise, if you get a great reward, it has absolutely no impact on me. We are NOT working for some common goal, like people do in the same business. I'm working on improving my toons, and you're doing the same for yours. If anything, we are directly competing, because whoever "contributes" most gets the better reward.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
The problem is we're all in the same business. Stealing from your co-workers will often get you fired.
|
However, all that said, don't get me wrong. I personally don't and wouldn't screw over others just for a chance at a better reward. But I can't be mad if other people do, given the broken system they are given. I can't be mad at people for simply acting in their best interests.
Quote:
The same business of completing an iTrial I would guess. That's how I took it anyway.|
Originally Posted by Supermax
I disagree completely. How do you figure we're in the same business?
... We are NOT working for some common goal, like people do in the same business. |
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Supermax
I'm working on improving my toons, and you're doing the same for yours.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Supermax
If anything, we are directly competing, because whoever "contributes" most gets the better reward.
|
Quote:
There is a line in office space where the main character is talking to the two Bobs, where he points out that since he sees no benefit if the company excels, he is only motivated to do just enough to not get fired. |
Originally Posted by all_hell
The same business of completing an iTrial I would guess. That's how I took it anyway.
By completing an iTrial together. |
I think it's a decent analogy to compare failing the trial to being fired for this discussion.
If I'm in a BAF and we are stopping the escapees, the entire trial might get increased reward chances if we stop them all. But for me personally, I will get better rewards for my scrapper/widow by spamming my AoEs at a door than I will get from chasing the runners - even if we lose the 0 escape bonus.
I have no incentive to chase them. It's a small reduction to the overall quality of the rewards for everyone in exchange for a huge increase to the quality of the rewards for me. Not a difficult choice at all.
So, maybe if the number of escaped prisoners passes 10 (something I have only seen happen once), then it may be profitable for me to chase some runners, but only just enough to keep from being fired.
Quote:
On a fire/ice corr, using mainly the ice and fire rains along with fireball, I have received more rares than my ill/rad and ice blaster.|
Originally Posted by Emberly
As all_hell said with one caveat: the AoE can't come from a pet or pseudopet, like rains or whatnot. Apparently using those sorts of powers isn't counted as participation. Not gospel or dev confirmed, but it fits very well with my own experiences.
|
So i think aoe rains are A OK.
According to Baronyx's new post, deviant behavior DOES NOT result in better rewards. Participation is just the threshold to get into the reward tables.
Read for yourself:
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=258774
Sorry for larger size, but this thread is going off the rails on a crazy train. Check his post and digest it.
Quote:
I see what you did there. :P
|
Originally Posted by makerian
Sorry for larger size, but this thread is going off the rails on a crazy train.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Back Alley Brawler
Did you just use "casual gamer" and "purpled-out warshade" in the same sentence?
|
Quote:
Excellent news, thanks for the link.|
Originally Posted by makerian
Read for yourself:
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=258774 |
Once a player qualifies for a component reward, the final block of choices presented to the player are rolled randomly. If you qualified for a component reward, you reached the level of participation for yourself and your league needed to have a chance at any component type.
So as long as you didn't get the 10 thread consolation reward, that means you had the same chance of getting another component as the one you actually got. That sounds fair to me. Personally I have never gotten the 10 thread deal, so I guess the system always realized that I contributed "enough".
Whatever the devs say about everyone that qualifies for any component has the chance for any rarity of drop, my MM runs about 10 trials a day since i20 launch, sometimes more (had a week off from work) and has recieved 2 rares to date, and ALL common uncommon.
I am closing in on two tier 3's crafted in EVERY incarnate ability but lore (boycotting for more varied summon skins) waiting for VR drops / empyreans. Thats going to be 18 different incarnate enhancements I've made just with common/uncommon drops WITH crafting 4 of the 6 rares out of yet more uncommons with a hefty influence sink as well.
There remains the possibility that I'm simply incredibly unlucky. But I've spoken with other MM's on these trials, most of them have had the same results.
Quote:
I've gotten exactly one very rare drop out of 44 runs across three characters: a blaster, a scrapper, and a controller. I don't think the average player is getting all that many VRs in general, and the low drop rate is not unlucky, its the high drop rate that is either very lucky or not accurately reported.
|
Originally Posted by Dark_Acolyte
Whatever the devs say about everyone that qualifies for any component has the chance for any rarity of drop, my MM runs about 10 trials a day since i20 launch, sometimes more (had a week off from work) and has recieved 2 rares to date, and ALL common uncommon.
I am closing in on two tier 3's crafted in EVERY incarnate ability but lore (boycotting for more varied summon skins) waiting for VR drops / empyreans. Thats going to be 18 different incarnate enhancements I've made just with common/uncommon drops WITH crafting 4 of the 6 rares out of yet more uncommons with a hefty influence sink as well. There remains the possibility that I'm simply incredibly unlucky. But I've spoken with other MM's on these trials, most of them have had the same results. |
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
Quote:
At this point, now that the dev clearly explained the system, there are three options.|
Originally Posted by Dark_Acolyte
There remains the possibility that I'm simply incredibly unlucky.
|
1. The devs are blatantly lying to us.
2. You are unlucky.
3. The system is broken, and the devs haven't realized it.
I am pretty sure it's not #1. I'm leaning towards #2, but #3 is not completely out of the question either.
Personally I've gotten probably 2-3 VR's, and a few rares. But like most people, it's been mostly uncommons.
Quote:
Well that just blows.
|
Originally Posted by Jophiel
Well, you have Gale.
|
The first one I did on my MM, I got a very rare LOL...So I am pretty sure pet dmg counts, since my necro/dark MM TEARS THINGS APART..And spam heals..My bane who does an asston with pets still, rarely gets rares..It's like always uncommons and its bs idk..My bane has good participation too =(..
Quote:
#1 does seem unlikely...and yet...|
Originally Posted by Supermax
At this point, now that the dev clearly explained the system, there are three options.
1. The devs are blatantly lying to us. 2. You are unlucky. 3. The system is broken, and the devs haven't realized it. I am pretty sure it's not #1. I'm leaning towards #2, but #3 is not completely out of the question either. Personally I've gotten probably 2-3 VR's, and a few rares. But like most people, it's been mostly uncommons. |
What if they've found what's broken with the system, but it would take too many programmer hours to correct, by whatever measure their management cares to define as, "too many?" Isn't it normal business practice these days to claim that the problem has been corrected, and hope that perception will make it so?
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Necromatic
Ahh, a fellow Moon Mage. prep tk throw =]
|
I feel like I'm at a Class Reunion.
If Brevity is the Soul of Wit, Why are You Reading This?
Quote:
Given that eventually, a player somewhere usually eventually figures out what is going on, that would be an incredibly bad risk to take in this game.|
Originally Posted by Indomitable
#1 does seem unlikely...and yet...
What if they've found what's broken with the system, but it would take too many programmer hours to correct, by whatever measure their management cares to define as, "too many?" Isn't it normal business practice these days to claim that the problem has been corrected, and hope that perception will make it so? |
In any case, if there are any masterminds still reading, I have a conjecture to test. After thinking about what the devs said the system does and does not do, and all the possible things it has to do, I gave a suggestion to two separate masterminds over the weekend who complained about getting 10 threaded in a trial often and had just gotten 10 threaded in the trial they were on. I suggested the following: that they continue to play exactly as they normally do, but with one exception. If at any time they were waiting for a power to recharge, or they were low on endurance and couldn't afford to fire an attack because it would cost too much endurance, they were to move towards the nearest target and brawl it. Brawl is fast and costs no endurance, so except for the fact they would be moving around more it wouldn't cost them anything much in time or endurance to do this extra thing. In both cases they qualified for rewards on the next trial run. Not statistically strong, but potentially worth conducting the experiment for masterminds that are consistently getting the 10 thread table.
Note: I'm not saying you should *have* to do this, or this is the only way to generate the same result. Its just the current best idea I have. Also note it doesn't actually matter *which* target you attack, which means for masterminds that are constantly waiting for their pets to catch up, its actually just as good to be in the pack that cleans up spawns rather than the pack that forges ahead and engages the next spawn with AoEs (I'm ignoring the practical issues with the way Lambda blinkies are currently harvested in many trials at the moment as well).
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
Took my DS/TA MM through four BAFs and one LAM yesterday. 2 VR, 1 Rare and 2 commons.
/em reads thread
/em shrugs
Quote:
I might be the only one doing this but I have my brawl set to auto because it's dmg is free|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Given that eventually, a player somewhere usually eventually figures out what is going on, that would be an incredibly bad risk to take in this game.
In any case, if there are any masterminds still reading, I have a conjecture to test. After thinking about what the devs said the system does and does not do, and all the possible things it has to do, I gave a suggestion to two separate masterminds over the weekend who complained about getting 10 threaded in a trial often and had just gotten 10 threaded in the trial they were on. I suggested the following: that they continue to play exactly as they normally do, but with one exception. If at any time they were waiting for a power to recharge, or they were low on endurance and couldn't afford to fire an attack because it would cost too much endurance, they were to move towards the nearest target and brawl it. Brawl is fast and costs no endurance, so except for the fact they would be moving around more it wouldn't cost them anything much in time or endurance to do this extra thing. In both cases they qualified for rewards on the next trial run. Not statistically strong, but potentially worth conducting the experiment for masterminds that are consistently getting the 10 thread table. |
another suggestion for those without personal attacks is to use powers that aren't effective on purpose. Immobs, and holds? go ahead and use them on the AVS and the escaping prisoner Lts even if they wont do jack they still help your participation also feel free to heal allies, pets and even your allies' pets this also counts apparently
Sociopathy is the norm.
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)