City of Heroes PAX East Panel 2011: Issue 20 and Q&A
By
Anti_Proton,
Posted on: 2011-03-12 21:18 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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They don't annoy me and I don't think you have any evidence that they annoy an especially large number of people. Better to just say they annoy you. I can't argue with that. |
Originally Posted by Dispari
Because locked costume parts are not the type of thing this game needs. The excuses you gave have never flied and never will. Locking costume parts does nothing but annoy people. Especially those of us who have been waiting for something new and keep not getting anything each issue that goes by.
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But whether they annoy you or not is wholly irrelevant. It's not a reason to give every costume piece away. There's plenty of precedent for having costume pieces unlocked in various ways. I personally, and I don't really expect or care whether you agree with me, believe that it's more fun when SOME costume pieces are gated. The majority shouldn't be and aren't.
As for when we'll get new pieces, we just got a costume pack that's available to all characters at level 1.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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This MMO does it. I don't need to use that argument. You all have given NO reasons why every single costume piece needs to be available at level 1 other than, "I'll be mad if they don't."
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Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
I'm waiting for EG to come back with "other mmos do it" as an argument.
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The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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The majority of new costume parts since about a dozen issues ago have been, and are, gated in some way. Costume packs are also gated content, to people who pay real life money. The fact that we've had "ungated" pants since issue 0 is not a sufficient excuse to make all costume parts for the last three years be gated.
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Originally Posted by EvilGeko
The majority shouldn't be and aren't.
As for when we'll get new pieces, we just got a costume pack that's available to all characters at level 1. |
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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They called me a conspiracy theorist when I predicted this situation (that Booster Packs would lead to a dearth of quality free costumes) back when the wedding pack was released. I don't like to say I told you (you in the general sense) so, but...
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Originally Posted by Dispari
If they were global that would be okay. I'm just getting tired of having to buy or unlock all my costume parts. When the hell am I going to get some actual costume parts with my free issue again? I feel like it's been years. And it probably has.
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Just because you were right doesn't mean you aren't a conspiracy theorist! It just means you're not a kook as well! |
Originally Posted by Daemodand
They called me a conspiracy theorist when I predicted this situation (that Booster Packs would lead to a dearth of quality free costumes) back when the wedding pack was released. I don't like to say I told you (you in the general sense) so, but...
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The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
It would be nice if you got an accolade for, say, unlocking a given thing (boost accolade, costume options, etc.) on say 5 characters which would then grant it to all of your characters. Maybe that specific suggestion would irk badgers, but something similar would be great.
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This is just my gut feeling but I think the IDF armor will be free in i20 to squelch the we don't get an costumes for free anymore complaints. I also think it'll also be free because it will help in some small way to mollify the complaints that we'll have to buy the Incarnate armor (the sneak preview screenshot) with Astral or Empyrean merits (which I think is likely going on past systems like Vanguard). While I don't want to do this for every character, I see EG's view on this as one the Devs probably have, at least initially. I certainly think over time it may change much like all the stuff Dispari mentioned has changed.|
Originally Posted by Dispari
Global unlocks I could get behind, as long as they aren't ungodly expensive and all new costume parts are this way. If you have to be an incarnate just to wear a pair of pants, screw that.
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Now what I really think we should focus on is allowing this carrot to be there but really clamor to have the pieces being globally unlocked once bought by an Incarnate. It's way past time CoH started doing costume bits unlocked across all characters. It's one of the features I appreciate in.. a couple other games.
This way it stresses the association of being an Incarnate. Much like how the old levels required to be an Epic AT where you had to be 50 to unlock them. Again, I don't agree with it being like this for *every* character but I do share, to some extent, EG's view on it being something you achieve. I could get behind some Incarnate auras too. Then this is all just another incentive to do the Incarnate system at least once.
I'm pretty sure if they already have it in mind to be purchased via Astral/Empyrean Merits then it's going to happen but I hope we can influence them with our feedback on the account wide unlock at least.
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T'be honest? I wouldn't mind unlocks throughout the game...
IF they weren't nearly all so damned repetitive.
I can think of one Unlock that is a sensible one; Defeat 100 Council, unlock Council Assault Rifles. It's not tied to a badge, or anything spectacularly hard to do. Beat the tar out of 100 goons of any class, and you get the unlock.
On the other end of the scale, we have the Nemesis and Tommy guns. I hate, hate, HATE the unlocks on those things. Redside, I had to have a freind farm the Nemesis Mole Mission in the Patron arc to get the Unveiler badge. It was boring. It was annoying. It was gated through boredom and repetition and inconvenience.
If all unlocks were as simple as the 100 Council one, I honestly wouldn't care.
As it is, though? Locking costume parts behind Incarnate levels sounds stupid as hell to me. That's 50 levels in a game that has massive precedent for being the best out there when it comes to customisation. And thats just stupid.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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I think he meant when we get new FREE pieces.
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Originally Posted by EvilGeko
They don't annoy me and I don't think you have any evidence that they annoy an especially large number of people. Better to just say they annoy you. I can't argue with that.
But whether they annoy you or not is wholly irrelevant. It's not a reason to give every costume piece away. There's plenty of precedent for having costume pieces unlocked in various ways. I personally, and I don't really expect or care whether you agree with me, believe that it's more fun when SOME costume pieces are gated. The majority shouldn't be and aren't. As for when we'll get new pieces, we just got a costume pack that's available to all characters at level 1. |
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Never said it needs to be available at 1. What I disagree with is it being locked behind Incarnancy.
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Originally Posted by EvilGeko
This MMO does it. I don't need to use that argument. You all have given NO reasons why every single costume piece needs to be available at level 1 other than, "I'll be mad if they don't."
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Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
I don't want the game to pick up the reputation that is a P2P game that also has microtransactions for content that used to be standard for almost every issue for free (costume pieces). Which is why I hope there is some new costume pieces for everyone in Issue 20.
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Originally Posted by EvilGeko
This MMO does it. I don't need to use that argument. You all have given NO reasons why every single costume piece needs to be available at level 1 other than, "I'll be mad if they don't."
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My opinion on the topic is that, unlike most of the fantasy genre, a superhero or supervillain's costume is a critical part of his/her identity. Identity should not be locked behind anything, and should be fully available at character creation. I won't complain about having "fancy" versions of costume parts being locked away (I'd rather they weren't, but I won't complain about it), as long as the basic version is available at level 1. I never had much of a problem with the Roman pieces, as you can make a passable Roman out of the basic items that we have at creation. However, I think it's ridiculous that we still have to wait until level 20 to wear a simple, one-color, rectangular, cloth cape in the premier superhero MMO.
If these Incarnate costume parts are just fancier versions of costume items we already have, I'll shrug and move on. But if they lock something character-defining like jetpack back items behind Incarnate trials, then I'm going to think it's stupid.
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I dont expect this at all, we have (most likely) seen some costume pieces in the "whats this" pic from the old thread, i think from pax west, if they are indeed part of what theya re going for, its just more grandiose looking versions of existing bits. Given the desire for jet-packs that has been a part of the community requests, i would be absolutely amazed if they tried to lock them behind the incarnate system, thematically that would be bizarre, and from a listening to customers aspect, i just dont see it at all. maybe one or two fancy looking ones, maybe i might see, but all of them, i stand completely skeptical there.
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Originally Posted by Liquid
If these Incarnate costume parts are just fancier versions of costume items we already have, I'll shrug and move on. But if they lock something character-defining like jetpack back items behind Incarnate trials, then I'm going to think it's stupid. |
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ummm... Geko, have you read some of the other posts here? I think there's good evidence that it DOES annoy a decent number of people, or look up the old 'make costume parts globally unlocked' thread in the suggestions and ideas forums.|
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
They don't annoy me and I don't think you have any evidence that they annoy an especially large number of people. Better to just say they annoy you. I can't argue with that.
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
As the lore behind the Lore slot says that the pets are the essence of Incarnate empowered enemies that we've extracted from the Well, that opens up the possibility of any non-Praetorian Incarnate empowered enemies we fight later on also being made available as Lore pets.
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I'll summon Gilgamesh, we'll solo GMs together, and Ishtar will all be like "Take me now!" And we'll be all like "Pfffft! NOooo." And then we'll duo the Bull of Heaven trial.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
City of Heroes is a game about freedom of expression and variety of experiences far more so than it is about representing any one theme, topic or genre.
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I am inclined to agree. It would be a major step back for this game to start such a trend compared to the competition of other super hero MMO's.
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Originally Posted by Liquid
My opinion on the topic is that, unlike most of the fantasy genre, a superhero or supervillain's costume is a critical part of his/her identity. Identity should not be locked behind anything, and should be fully available at character creation. I won't complain about having "fancy" versions of costume parts being locked away (I'd rather they weren't, but I won't complain about it), as long as the basic version is available at level 1. I never had much of a problem with the Roman pieces, as you can make a passable Roman out of the basic items that we have at creation. However, I think it's ridiculous that we still have to wait until level 20 to wear a simple, one-color, rectangular, cloth cape in the premier superhero MMO.
If these Incarnate costume parts are just fancier versions of costume items we already have, I'll shrug and move on. But if they lock something character-defining like jetpack back items behind Incarnate trials, then I'm going to think it's stupid. |
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Not so sure on that to be honest. Even if you go by the percentage of users online and the number of people who have posted in this thread (in TOTAL)|
Originally Posted by AzureSkyCiel
ummm... Geko, have you read some of the other posts here? I think there's good evidence that it DOES annoy a decent number of people, or look up the old 'make costume parts globally unlocked' thread in the suggestions and ideas forums.
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70 ish posts with 1291 members and 3556 guests online.
That is playing devils advocate, but even if you just consider the members online... its still around 5% of the player base apparently agree (Taking the each post as in agreement).
Yes, its just numbers, but as soon as people say "it annoyed a decent number".. how many do you mean?
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So the moral of the story is to whine and complain when a player does not feel like doing anything extra to receive anything extra. And as we all know if the forums complain loud enough the Devs will do anything to appease.
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Originally Posted by Dispari
There is no precedent for it.
Level 20: capes. They're only level 20. And the devs have given us tons of alternative options to capes, and different kinds of capes, and capes you can have at level 1. Because people complain about it all the time. Level 30: aura. It's level 30. And the devs have given us tons of alternative options to auras, and different kinds of auras, and auras you can have at level 1. Because people complain about it all the time. Level 35: vanguard. Hey we're getting a new pack that gives us all the vanguard parts at level 1. Because people complained all the time. Because it's a bad idea as much as I'm sure the intention is to make you feel like you're a part of the Vanguard. Misc: wings. Wings are for month 15+ vets. Guess what? People complained. So we got wings we can craft, and wings we can get from packs. Wings we can have from level 1. So where's the precedent for all these costume parts you can only have at beyond the max level? Where are all the costume parts that unlock only for level 50 characters? Or fully IO-ed out characters? Or level 50 VEATs/HEATs? It seems to me the only precedent is for stuff you get on your way up, and those all have alternative options and methods because people hate the idea. And even if there were a precedent, you know people are just going to complain. Because locked costume parts are not the type of thing this game needs. The excuses you gave have never flied and never will. Locking costume parts does nothing but annoy people. Especially those of us who have been waiting for something new and keep not getting anything each issue that goes by. Global unlocks I could get behind, as long as they aren't ungodly expensive and all new costume parts are this way. If you have to be an incarnate just to wear a pair of pants, screw that. |
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welp, every character i've made since 2008 has had the bare undies and either a cowboy hat or the mortal kombat raiden hat. or i hit the random button 4 times and go with whatever it lands on.|
Originally Posted by Liquid
My opinion on the topic is that, unlike most of the fantasy genre, a superhero or supervillain's costume is a critical part of his/her identity.
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wooops
Positron's i13 letter: We are trying to make PvP more accessible to new players, while giving experienced PvP'ers the advantage that comes with formulating tactics around the new systems we're putting in place. PvP from now on will be on our priority list. If something isn't working out, we'll be in there tweaking it and making it work, for the entire future of the product, not just Issue 13.
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When the "reward" we're asking for is purely cosmetic, and the name of this game is "customization," then yes. We're not talking about level advancements and powers that are balanced around specific content. There's no reason that a pair of pants needs to be locked until the very end-game.
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Originally Posted by Seek_Trouble
So the moral of the story is to whine and complain when a player does not feel like doing anything extra to receive anything extra. And as we all know if the forums complain loud enough the Devs will do anything to appease.
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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When the Incarnate system was first announced last year, Positron said players would be able to unlock the rewards for their alts too - so any Incarnate costume rewards might be account-wide unlocks.
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From reading the forums, I thought the name of the game was the journey, you know unlocking stuff. So work for those shiny pants! This game isnt just about dressup.
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Originally Posted by Dispari
When the "reward" we're asking for is purely cosmetic, and the name of this game is "customization," then yes. We're not talking about level advancements and powers that are balanced around specific content. There's no reason that a pair of pants needs to be locked until the very end-game.
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Is there a text play-by-play on these or a recap I could read somewhere? The audio wasn't as audible as I'd have hoped - not a knock on you for posting them, it's really awesome of you to have done this OP! - and I would like to know what they're saying in the Q&A.
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Customization is a core focus of the game. If it wasn't, they wouldn't devote entire issues to it, or make a healthy profit selling purely cosmetic items for real money. We have plenty of things to work for and unlock (inventions for instance). Clothes should not be one of them. Maybe if that shirt gave me +3% RES you might have a point.|
Originally Posted by Seek_Trouble
From reading the forums, I thought the name of the game was the journey, you know unlocking stuff. So work for those shiny pants! This game isnt just about dressup.
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And for some of us, this game is all about dressup.
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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I said the same thing, but I love to say I TOLD YOU SO. | They called me a conspiracy theorist when I predicted this situation (that Booster Packs would lead to a dearth of quality free costumes) back when the wedding pack was released. I don't like to say I told you (you in the general sense) so, but... |
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Level 20: capes. They're only level 20. And the devs have given us tons of alternative options to capes, and different kinds of capes, and capes you can have at level 1. Because people complain about it all the time.
Level 30: aura. It's level 30. And the devs have given us tons of alternative options to auras, and different kinds of auras, and auras you can have at level 1. Because people complain about it all the time.
Level 35: vanguard. Hey we're getting a new pack that gives us all the vanguard parts at level 1. Because people complained all the time. Because it's a bad idea as much as I'm sure the intention is to make you feel like you're a part of the Vanguard.
Misc: wings. Wings are for month 15+ vets. Guess what? People complained. So we got wings we can craft, and wings we can get from packs. Wings we can have from level 1.
So where's the precedent for all these costume parts you can only have at beyond the max level? Where are all the costume parts that unlock only for level 50 characters? Or fully IO-ed out characters? Or level 50 VEATs/HEATs? It seems to me the only precedent is for stuff you get on your way up, and those all have alternative options and methods because people hate the idea.
And even if there were a precedent, you know people are just going to complain. Because locked costume parts are not the type of thing this game needs. The excuses you gave have never flied and never will. Locking costume parts does nothing but annoy people. Especially those of us who have been waiting for something new and keep not getting anything each issue that goes by.
Global unlocks I could get behind, as long as they aren't ungodly expensive and all new costume parts are this way. If you have to be an incarnate just to wear a pair of pants, screw that.