Insanity of moving blue spots while you have powers that root you.
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2011-03-02 07:38 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
Did it again on my tank w/no deaths. Mo too (yeah, I know, death has nothing to do w/it). Still lots of fun, whether on a ranged or melee toon. I'll have to try the "move just outside of the AoE" tactic next time, since I was jumping well out of its range while Taunting.
Rest of the team suffered little as well, though there were a few deaths here and there. I think as ppl get better at it (and there are still a lot of 1st time runners, esp on PuGs), we'll be looking back at these debates and thinking, 'what was all the fuss?' 30min (or less) TF for 40 (x2 for WST) merits & 2 guaranted shards? Sign me up, every time.
An Offensive Guide to Ice Melee
We've done 6 Apex runs for the past 3 nights and our main Brute/Tanker players on the team mostly focus on taunting Swords so the squishies can focus on BM.
One thing I've noticed is that if you have Troller/Dom on your team, ask them not to immb BM because it kinda hurts melee dps if she keeps being immb inside the blue flames. Taunt has -50% range debuff and a Brute/Tanker should be able to taunt her out so other melee dps can move in.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
My melee toons Bane and Stalker don't necessarily die in the last battle but they also don't offer as much dps because BM could be standing in the flame. I constantly use vet Staff attack and luckily Kinetic Melee has one range. My Bane uses Venom grenade and Surveillance whenever they are up.
DPS-wise, BM fight lasts a bit longer but it's not that bad.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
Quote:
Same here. However, when I did it I found that the pets seem to be more resistant to the blue patches than players and issuing a simple go-to command whenever patches drop was sufficient to keep them mostly alive.
|
Originally Posted by StratoNexus
I was apprehensive about playing my MM on the Apex.
However, after trying it, I find it very fun to play my MM on the Apex. I really only make use of three commands during the BM fight. Attack my target-Defensive, Follow Me-Passive, Follow Me-Defensive. |
Quote:
Ah, i had mentioned they have some res to blue patches earlier but no one was able to confirm this. Good to finally hear they do.
|
Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
Same here. However, when I did it I found that the pets seem to be more resistant to the blue patches than players and issuing a simple go-to command whenever patches drop was sufficient to keep them mostly alive.
|
"I have ridden the mighty moon worm!"
-Al Gore
Fiery Aura is only good for farming, I'm cereal
@Caucasiafro
Elll Ohhhhh Ellll at the music choice.
Ramble on to find that queen.
I wonder if you held them stationary, would the blue spawn under them? That is, is it player spawned or is it player and pet? Further, do pets make it more likely to spawn?
Thoughts?
Quote:
lollrn2play.|
Originally Posted by Infernus_Hades
Playing the Apex TF over the last day has aquainted me to the insanity of developers dropping spots that move randomly on you while expecting you to use powers that root you.
Then you have the melee players saying well you need to pay attention - all while being stunned by some of the Champions and unable to actually move. Is this the best we can expect? A gimmick to drop instant death is the best thing we can expect for making a challenge? How about adding enemies without status effects but yet with armor on all of them? I did this on an AE mission and everyone loved it. I had a few enemies that had specific hard hitting attacks that would hurt squishies - so the melee learned to handle those - I had some resistant to slows - some resistant to fire. |
It's not that hard.
Took part in the Apex TF last night for the FIRST TIME EVER, and had a complete blast! We had a few deaths, but over all things went rather smoothly. I faceplanted because of the blue field of doom, and that was because i accidentally walked into it, like a *******. Although...the emp defender on our team came over to rez me...and ended up doing the same exactly thing...walked into it...rezzed me...then died. Was kinda funny actually.
Had a few "crud crud CRUD CRUD MOVE!" moments when i saw blue stuff and i was in the middle of animation...but never once got caught by'em. I did fall a few times during the BM fight...but that was usually cuz a boss came over and wacked me.
Lemme restate a few things here. First time for TF...stayed out of blue stuff fairly easily, even when i saw it during power animation/rooting. Hmm...did i mention i was a DP/Elec blaster? So uh...yeah...some hellish anims to get stuck in, but zero problems avoiding stuff.
As an aside...we completed the TF in 31 minutes with a team comp of 2 scrappers, 3 tankers, a controller, a defender, and me as a blaster.
RaikenX is currently seeking new quotes to add to his signature.
Someone say something funny.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Smiling_Joe
::looks at RaikenX's signature::
Something funny. |
Quote:
So, how does it feel to be an "outlier"? (Like many others in this thread.) |
Originally Posted by RaikenX
*posted stuff that must be very unlikely if one is to trust some of the "experts" in this thread*
|
Seriously, i actually enjoy the Apex TF. The funny thing is that i found it pretty enjoyable and fairly easy back before Notices of the Well were available, and now with the level shift it's a lot bit easier than it was then. The Praetorian forces are interesting in both their abilities and appearance.
While i hope future issues and the Incarnate system will become a bit less Praetorian and Cole-centric i do think that the Apex and Tin Mage TFs are fun additions to the game. Tying in Ruulaaruu-uu-uu and Shiva and The Battalion with the Incarnate system and storyline would be a nice way of breathing life back into some of the more interesting CoH lore that's been largely overlooked for a while now.
Especially Ruu-uu-uulaaruu. An alien godlike being served by hordes of bizarre and deadly creatures with no incestuous* link to the well as an opponent? Yes please!
*So far all Incarnate content is the Well pitting its various puppets and agents against each other as it plays some sort of game to see which one is the strongest. Presumably the Well has some other purpose or goal besides playing playing war games with itself using those it imbues. If it turns out that all the Well wants us for is to help it play with itself i'm going to feel disappointed. And a bit dirty.
Dr. Todt's theme.
i make stuff...
Only one person to taunt BM, that way she isnt exploding arrow all over the place. A brute, off tank or scrapper to gather free aggro that way someones taking care of the strays pot shotting at rangers who are then safer to concentrate on BM with debuffs, or not have their little fights as well as avoid blue patches, and constantly go round and round moving from patch drop areas in one direction. Then its easy.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
Quote:
Speaking of music, anyone else here hum the fantasia tune when the swords are approaching on the roof?
|
Originally Posted by Erin Go Braugh
Elll Ohhhhh Ellll at the music choice.
Ramble on to find that queen. I wonder if you held them stationary, would the blue spawn under them? That is, is it player spawned or is it player and pet? Further, do pets make it more likely to spawn? Thoughts? |
Quote:
<humming it as we speak>
|
Originally Posted by SinisterDirge
Speaking of music, anyone else here hum the fantasia tune when the swords are approaching on the roof?
|
RaikenX is currently seeking new quotes to add to his signature.
Someone say something funny.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Smiling_Joe
::looks at RaikenX's signature::
Something funny. |
Quote:
Swords seem to be player spawn only, unless I am missing something. A team could theoretically stay at range of BM and have any pets remain in melee with her at all times. With good debuffs, and a bunch of MMs, that could work well, I imagine (if you can keep her from running away from the pets and at a player, of course).
|
Originally Posted by Erin Go Braugh
Elll Ohhhhh Ellll at the music choice.
Ramble on to find that queen. I wonder if you held them stationary, would the blue spawn under them? That is, is it player spawned or is it player and pet? Further, do pets make it more likely to spawn? Thoughts? |
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
I am not sure that the blue auras are always visible. Some could be lost in map and some being a sphere maybe just above where someone is hovering only a little way above you. Then maybe an effect of lag? I don't know I am just not convinced and can Battle Maiden create them herself?
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
Quote:
How to move while using attacks that root you:|
Originally Posted by Infernus_Hades
Insanity of moving blue spots while you have powers that root you.
|
Take an unsupressed power that allows you to instantly accelerate to full speed while jumping, the moment you leave the ground. Superjump and superspeed do not work; they suppress for a while after you attack. Combat Jumping does work, I believe Increase Density does as well but I don't have a lot of experience using it.
Do these three at the exact same time:
1) press and hold forward
2) press and hold jump
3) click your attack power
What this does is executes your attack mid-air, and plays out the rooting animation as you move in a wide jumping arc, finishing the attack a good deal away from where you started.
You may want to practice the timing on some lesser minions to get the rhythm down. If you jump but don't attack, you may have to insert a tiny, tiny split-second gap between the jump start and clicking the attack.
The Bacon Compels You.
First Apex I ever did with my ice/dev.
The blue patches HATED me and I hated them, It seemed like every time I fired off any attack I was dead a second later, I had over 10 puddle deaths in the fight, including the infamous died as i loaded thanks to a blue patch on the door. This was also a fight where the leader told us not to root BM so goodbye web grenade, forget trying to cast gun drone or lolminesetup, and smoke grenade is pretty laughable against +4 AV's too. There goes my entire secondary which added an extra degree of frustration.
Now when I turned up my sound a bit after someone pointed out the warning noise I had a lot less dying, but by the end I was so fed up I pretty much had to take a coh break and swore I'd never do the TF again.
Fast forward to WTF target.
I needed the notice and I figure eh, how bad can it be to suffer through one more with knowing what I know now? Didn't take long to form a team on global, but something really raises a red flag for me regarding Incarnate content in general (not just Apex) was the leader flat out refusing to invite any melee, (something that spawned a rather amusing argument on radio virtue) and only caving because a good friend of a friend wanted to bring a tank.
Same with the BAF, I don't like the feeling of AT's being rendered not "useless" so much as far too ineffective because of how a fight is set up, never seen it till the new content, don't like seeing it now.
Anyway back to the BM fight, not a single death this time with the same blaster to puddles, though two 672 hp arrows to the face when I pulled too much aggro kinda sucked. Even after getting grazed by a puddle during a poorly timed attack I was ok. We even got every badge for master and finished in 30:22.
All the same I really still didn't find the fight all that enjoyable, there's still little use for my particular powerset, and it just doesn't feel right having to run around like a ninny every 10 seconds just to dodge some rather cheap patch attack. Everyone says BM is different, but if you ask me she still feels like a giant bag of HP with a cheap shot that only really pads out the fight and annoys the heck out of melee, MM's and teams in general depending on pug and player quality. There's nothing new about her except that, and I'm of the school of thought that when you have to resort to what may as well be a one shot in any game it's a cop out on your boss fight design. Thank god BM doesn't have checkpoints like the single player games of old, or a full restart on the fight when you bite it.
On a side note a friend failed an Apex this week because both brutes on the team magic dc'ed at the same time, remaining members couldn't muster enough damage. And when an all scrapper team earns special bragging rights for beating it, that should also throw up some red flags on the fight design if you ask me.
Here's where someone gets to say learn to adapt, ok fine.
How do I adapt to virtually my entire secondary being useless during the fight? Granted I have a heavy recharge build, and against normal AV's I can put out two gun drones to pile up extra damage, fault in how I built the blaster, but still an issue for me.
How do I adapt to basically having my defiance bonus be utterly useless (unlike traditional fights) because I'm having to move every few seconds instead of attacking and building it up? Let's ask brutes about that one too.
How do I adapt on a poor PuG to pulling BM's aggro with what damage I am doing (the one way I did die on TF #2) Because the tank can't get anywhere near her? And what about the tank being basically relegated to the role of tauntbot because she won't come out of a patch?
Seriously I get really sick of the learn to play crap that comes from people that like the fight, it's about as dumb as them going lolgimmick. I may consider the puddles a gimmick myself, but at least I can offer up more then a three word opinion on why I think the fight is flawed over people who just utter the word adapt like it's some magic wand that solves everything and makes every pug godlike. *eyeroll*
Anyway is Apex hard? Not really. Are puddles easy to dodge? Sure once you notice the signs and learn not to queue up attacks. But does it make the TF fun for me or the final fight enjoyable? Not in the slightest.
Opinion still stands, I'll go find another TF to do besides that one unless it's friends running it, no way would I PuG it. And the fact I'm saying that is another problem/worry I really have with incarnate content right there. Not just this TF.
Quote:
Interesting question. I would imagine that if you believe the autohitting unresistable patches of death make your blaster's secondary useless, there are several other archetypes that are going to have issues with either secondaries or primaries being a bit shaky as well.|
Originally Posted by Dragonkat
How do I adapt to virtually my entire secondary being useless during the fight? Granted I have a heavy recharge build, and against normal AV's I can put out two gun drones to pile up extra damage, fault in how I built the blaster, but still an issue for me.
|
Quote:
| How do I adapt to basically having my defiance bonus be utterly useless (unlike traditional fights) because I'm having to move every few seconds instead of attacking and building it up? Let's ask brutes about that one too. |
Quote:
| How do I adapt on a poor PuG to pulling BM's aggro with what damage I am doing (the one way I did die on TF #2) Because the tank can't get anywhere near her? And what about the tank being basically relegated to the role of tauntbot because she won't come out of a patch? |
Quote:
| Anyway is Apex hard? Not really. Are puddles easy to dodge? Sure once you notice the signs and learn not to queue up attacks. But does it make the TF fun for me or the final fight enjoyable? Not in the slightest. |
Quote:
| Opinion still stands, I'll go find another TF to do besides that one unless it's friends running it, no way would I PuG it. And the fact I'm saying that is another problem/worry I really have with incarnate content right there. Not just this TF. |
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
Just want to put it out there that Apex is my favorite Task Force by a large margin. What I like about it is that it throws the gauntlet at you from the start, and never lets up. While other TFs have moments I enjoy (Mary McCromber in Katie Hannon, the siege on City Hall in the revised Posi 1, and the nictus/minotaur stomping in the ITF's second mission) Apex is like a "best of" reel.
Specifically, what I like about it is that it's not a steamroller that slams into a 100ft thick wall at the end like the STF. When I fail an STF, I've just spent a lot of time. When I fail Apex, it was clear early on this wasn't going to work, and I'm not too frustrated to reform and try again. What I might be saying without trying to is that the STF would be ten times more enjoyable to me even if the only change were splitting it into two parts.
Quote:
Agree completely. It is a great, fast paced TF that makes me feel like a superhero, not some clown facerolling the keyboard. If this is the direction things are going in, I am very excited. |
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
Just want to put it out there that Apex is my favorite Task Force by a large margin. What I like about it is that it throws the gauntlet at you from the start, and never lets up. While other TFs have moments I enjoy (Mary McCromber in Katie Hannon, the siege on City Hall in the revised Posi 1, and the nictus/minotaur stomping in the ITF's second mission) Apex is like a "best of" reel.
|
The best thing for me, is it can be reasonably done in less than an hour. That means I can actually finish it before kids wake up, or my wife needs me to do something. That means less aggro from my wife. I need to explain to teammates that I need to split less often which means less occasions that I need to feel guilty for splitting. I feel like I can actually do TF's again.
So, basically, the OP does not like rooting and is trying to use the BM fight as a poster child of some sort to prove rooting is bad.
In other words, yet another person that wants a basic game mechanic changed, simply because they disagree with it.
I do not understand the logic of wanting to change the game just because of some dislike of a basic mechanic, especially when, judging from the information I have at hand from posts and in-game chatter, the BM fight has been well received overall. I would agree that a change would be warranted if some large percentage of the players attempting the TF were unable to complete it, but that is not the case.
I freely admit that apparently, according to a number of people I have been having discussions about this with, I am the abnormal human for not wanting to change everything around me to my liking, rather than adapt. I even been asked, here on these boards and in RL, "Are you even human?"
I just don't understand the outlook of 'change it because I don't like it'.
The human brain is just fascinating.
"The side that is unhappy is not the side that the game was intended to make happy, or promised to make happy, or focused on making happy. The side that is unhappy is the side that is unhappy. That's all." - Arcanaville
"Surprised your guys' arteries haven't clogged with all that hatred yet." - Xzero45
Quote:
It's not a matter of belief it's pretty much a damn fact. I didn't even bother trying o use gun drone for example on Apex #2 because i knew either I'd have to run from a patch before the interrupt time was done, or it would wander right into a patch chasing BM a few moments later. not to mention sword and champion aggro if you aren't paying attention. I'd imagine fire imps, gravity sings and MM's who aren't good at controlling pets all have an issue here too. Same with trying to plant a mine or bomb under her? Ha good luck, and if i'm not trying to root her that pretty much leaves target drone as my only good power.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Interesting question. I would imagine that if you believe the autohitting unresistable patches of death make your blaster's secondary useless, there are several other archetypes that are going to have issues with either secondaries or primaries being a bit shaky as well.
|
As for other powersets being shakey, that to me is an issue, see also melee vs trapdoor, or any tank or troller vs BAF commandos. Recent content just does not seemed to be designed with every AT in mind, it's veering all over towards one end or the other in terms of who it favors, to me this says sloppy design. As a blaster fan i do not want my time to shine to come at the expense of mobs another AT can't even touch, that just seems flat out stupid.
Quote:
| The absolute best case for defiance is somewhere's around +45% damage. Stacked onto just ED slotting that's only an increase of about 23% in total damage. Brute fury, by comparison, reasonably tops out at about +160% damage or so, a net increase above slotting of around 82%. The situation is slightly different, insofar as I doubt the average blaster could even notice the difference without the combat monitor up, whereas cutting your damage almost in half is the sort of thing a lot more people would notice. |
If I'm given an inherent by the devs to help my class, and then you give me a fight where said inherent is barely useful, it's rather irksome. And if I was playing an AT that relies on it a lot more then blasters I'd be a bit PO'ed when I'm losing half my damage to her puddles.
Quote:
| Taunt's range is 70 feet. If the tanker can't hit BM with taunt, she's surrounded by more blue than the Blue Man Group. |
Oh and my one tank I have? She never took Taunt, she uses all the ice auras and ice patch to herd/slow/keep aggro on her. With damage procs in her auras to help out. Mind telling me how she's going to be useful now? Same question applies with the Commandos again.
Quote:
| If Apex isn't hard, you should also have answers to all of your objections above as well. If its not fun for you, its not fun for you. That's a subjective position on the design of the task force. Attempting to amplify that objection by first suggesting that the encounter has intractable problems, then implying all of those intractable problems have easy solutions, is not likely to support your point very well. |
I don't find wading through +4 mobs fun at all. If giant HP bags are bad why do we suddenly make every single mob one? All it does is pad out the fights.
If tank and spank is bad why do people love the warwalker battles then? Or for that matter Lambda sector? When you get right down to it you could easily replace pacification grenade with dimensional grounding ray and nova fist with reisch's lightening attack and it's the kahn TF in a new shiny skin. Just now you have to deal with the devs new solution to everything on top. Moar ambushes for everyone! *eyeroll*
That and a question that's been eating at me too. If tank and spank is so bad, then pray tell what should the tank be doing in future content? Since the AT is meant to hold aggro at the trade off of lesser damage, yet every new content piece seems to have a LAWL defense sets element to it, or is built to specifically render a majority of tanker abilities useless? (sequestration + commandos yet again)
Quote:
| Are you worried that you will continue to dislike future incarnate content, or do you believe your dislike of it translates to a likelihood that enough other players will not like future incarnate content to be problematic? People said similar things about the LRSF, and Hamidon Mark III. In retrospect, I think those objections failed to hold up. |
#1 We're taking CoH down the road of generic mmohood, and creating a even greater mentality for everyone blowing through the 1-50 game to get to incarnate content. As a rabid alt player I'm not sure how I feel about this in terms of TF's and team finding. But lucky I'm on virtue and the WTF has reduced this worry somewhat.
#2 We've hit a point where we're getting (as I've said in other posts) to a point where the content isn't what do I feel like playing today? It's becoming What can I bring/build that will be best for the upcoming content? Not quite holy trinity territory, but again looking at the BAF. An 8 controller team would wreck anything in normal coh content, but then to hit a brick wall of unmezzable mobs at this point? Getting metagamed by the GM (devs) at that point would leave a pretty sour taste in my mouth were I a troller player.
#3 Like I said above I've never encountered in CoH a mentality where an AT wasn't allowed to join a team till Apex because "It'd slow things down." Whether the statement is true or not doesn't change the fact we're seeing it out there. And AT elitism has no place in this game, I bought coh specifically to get away from it.
Then again I also bought it to get away from PvP, wasting my time in an auction house, hunting that specific shiny set piece, and most of all the endless running of one particular area to grind out that one lucky loot drop. *glares at the current design of the BAF and lambda*
looks like I'm batting .000 in that regard eh?
In the game, I don't have a problem making myself useful in Apex with a blaster.
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
Quote:
This isn't really a problem with Apex but with the fact that Devices in general is not a particularly useful set on a team (and an AR/Dev Blaster is one of my 3 Incarnates). In a game where a spawn can be AoE'd to death in less than 20 seconds taking 4 seconds to setup a mine or 8 seconds to summon a drone just isn't particularly useful on a good team. I rarely bother to use either power on teams although they both are very useful solo.|
Originally Posted by Dragonkat
It's not a matter of belief it's pretty much a damn fact. I didn't even bother trying o use gun drone for example on Apex #2 because i knew either I'd have to run from a patch before the interrupt time was done, or it would wander right into a patch chasing BM a few moments later. not to mention sword and champion aggro if you aren't paying attention. I'd imagine fire imps, gravity sings and MM's who aren't good at controlling pets all have an issue here too. Same with trying to plant a mine or bomb under her? Ha good luck, and if i'm not trying to root her that pretty much leaves target drone as my only good power.
|
Also for the BM fight in particular Devices also has Caltrops. With a bit of recharge you can easily get them down to less than her casting time on the blue patches which means after you move position you toss them down to provide protection from the wondering swords/champions.
Quote:
| Again see gun drone, which is a huge defiance boost in and of itself if it's alive. (22% or around I think) |
Quote:
I don't think petitioning the devs to save you from yourself is the way to go here.|
Originally Posted by Dragonkat
Oh and my one tank I have? She never took Taunt, she uses all the ice auras and ice patch to herd/slow/keep aggro on her. With damage procs in her auras to help out. Mind telling me how she's going to be useful now? Same question applies with the Commandos again.
|
Re: tough single targets, Bruising is a wonderful thing.
PenanceжTriage
It's a lot easier to avoid on ranged characters. But even on melees I've gotten used to zooming way out and watching where I'm going (funny that's a "new tactic" I'm trying out).