Insanity of moving blue spots while you have powers that root you.
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2011-03-02 07:38 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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The characters I bring generally ARE IOed. Just not capped to slash/lethal specifically, because outside of this encounter and a few others, ranged defense is often more important to me. My Ice/Fire Dominator and Ice/Rad Controller usually survive due to a combination of Ice Slick, Glacier, Choking Cloud, Shiver, and other powers. Little of that helps them here. In fact, freezing enemies in place is often counterproductive during the BM fight (not so on the mission prior). Arctic Air and Ice Slick tend to obscure visibility of the halberds, so I keep them off even if they would help. | You're right, I do forget sometimes that not everyone shares my play-style philosophy. I generally do not take non-IOd builds onto TFs - simply because they don't allow me to really enjoy the TF at it's fullest. |
The Ice/Rad/Psi Controller is an interesting case study. In order to prevent BM from sunbathing in a damage patch, he has to avoid using holds and immobs. At this point, the character is basically using Psi Blast at half damage due to lack of Containment, Radiation Infection which is over 90% resisted, and the heal and buff aura on whoever I can manage to stand next to long enough to hit, while running away from any swords that take interest in him. Lingering Radiation can be used every 30 seconds or so to debuff regen (thankfully she resists most of the -run speed), and Enervating Field reduces her attack strength and debuffs her resistance by 2% more than a Tanker's Bruising ability. If he does get cornered by swords, he can survive approximately three strikes before dying.
My Ice/Fire/Fire Dominator meanwhile is more lucky. He has more attacks he can use. His best one has a 40ft range (48 ft or so alpha slotted and IOed as he is now). This means edging close to BM for much of the fight. Like the Ice/Rad he is capped to Ranged defense, but its not that useful here. Flying shortens the range on Blaze too much to really increase survivability; I'd basically have to fly right into a patch. The power that turns out to be the most important though is Rise of the Phoenix. That's because it lets me play a bit crazier. As long as RotP is recharged, I can take big risks. Sometimes the entire team wipes, including me, but I am the first one back because I can resurrect and move out of a patch before it can get me.
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I'd like to know why my Softcapped to SM/L Corr would be considered by some to be an outlier in terms of performance, and yet that's not really considered when we discuss the melee side. I think there has been a running bias in this thread the melees should be able to take care of themselves. Not everyone has a self heal, not everyone is softcapped. |
I think its obvious in itself that an IOed character would be more effective than one with identical power picks who is not IOed. If we are saying armored characters are made obsolete because squishy characters can use IOs, then we have to consider what IOs can do for the armored characters too. I think all of us are in agreement that a Corruptor with capped S/L defense is an end-state character. If we're going to say that he makes other characters ineffective, we have to consider the best other characters have to offer in their end states too. This is no different than why you can't compare an IOed Scrapper to an SOed Tanker and conclude Tankers are not useful.
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Great summation here and very true. I have a BS/SD scrapper who's IO'd heavily and more durable than many SO'd tankers. Compare him to a fully IO'd tanker and it's a very different story.|
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
I think its obvious in itself that an IOed character would be more effective than one with identical power picks who is not IOed. If we are saying armored characters are made obsolete because squishy characters can use IOs, then we have to consider what IOs can do for the armored characters too. I think all of us are in agreement that a Corruptor with capped S/L defense is an end-state character. If we're going to say that he makes other characters ineffective, we have to consider the best other characters have to offer in their end states too. This is no different than why you can't compare an IOed Scrapper to an SOed Tanker and conclude Tankers are not useful.
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I also have a highly IO'd Fire/EM blaster who while not soft capped to range is still at around 38%. He plays much like a ranged scrapper and is at least as durable as a typical SO'd scrapper. Against an IO'd scrapper he's again considerably weaker durability wise, again as it should be.
I wonder if the root problem some people are having with Apex isn't that it's the first challenge in the game that clearly isn't designed around a purely SO equipped character? And also that it introduces a mechanic in the blue patches that forces a different strategy than the typical tank & spank we've all gotten so used to.
There's always going to be a huge gap between the effectiveness of a base, SO enhanced character and one with massive IO bonuses. Therefore why shouldn't we have new (let me stress NEW; leave the old content alone) content designed to challenge those high end builds?
COH has just been murdered by NCSoft. http://www.change.org/petitions/ncso...city-of-heroes
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I'd put money on a team of SO builds getting the Apex Mo. Once players know what they're doing it becomes simpler. It maybe that all IOs do is allow people to get through it the first to a few times easier.
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Originally Posted by Call Me Awesome
There's always going to be a huge gap between the effectiveness of a base, SO enhanced character and one with massive IO bonuses. Therefore why shouldn't we have new (let me stress NEW; leave the old content alone) content designed to challenge those high end builds?
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He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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Oh no question with good players and a good team it could be done; after all it's been done with debuffed players and buffed enemies (had a buddy on that run, the leader goofed on the settings, started the TF and they decided to see if it could be done).|
Originally Posted by New Dawn
I'd put money on a team of SO builds getting the Apex Mo. Once players know what they're doing it becomes simpler. It maybe that all IOs do is allow people to get through it the first to a few times easier.
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Heck, I recall once running a STF with nobody on the team above 48... it was tough but we managed. The thing is, in both of those situations all 8 players were highly experienced, very good at playing their characters and had a very good team mix. I'd bet that a random PuG would have a lot more trouble.
COH has just been murdered by NCSoft. http://www.change.org/petitions/ncso...city-of-heroes
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Yeah, this is the point I tried to make earlier--IO slotting for S/L def *just happens* to work perfectly on the BM fight. That same toon would be just as squishy as an SOed equivalent to non-S/L dealing mobs. Okay, I exaggerate; I assume there'll be some ranged/aoe defs from various global & ancillary bonuses, and likely KB protection in there as well, so quite a better than SOed. Still, there are more and more non-S/L typed (mixed, or otherwise) damage being thrown around in the end game, so I'm far happier going for positionals.
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Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
The characters I bring generally ARE IOed. Just not capped to slash/lethal specifically, because outside of this encounter and a few others, ranged defense is often more important to me.
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An Offensive Guide to Ice Melee
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So you all started the TF at 48 and didn't lvl during it? Buffs would be better than debuffs as debuffs pretty much get resisted to nought. It would be doable for 8*48s but like you say a very good team mix. 2*lvl50s duo'd it I believe so why not.
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Originally Posted by Call Me Awesome
Heck, I recall once running a STF with nobody on the team above 48... it was tough but we managed. The thing is, in both of those situations all 8 players were highly experienced, very good at playing their characters and had a very good team mix. I'd bet that a random PuG would have a lot more trouble.
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He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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Uh, I have plenty of melee characters that are not softcapped*, and I run this encounter repeatedly. I find your analysis of what a melee character should be doing ... rather odd. Few of my melees have any way to hold aggro on entire packs of swords, whether or not they could actually survive doing so. I don't take on whole packs of them. I take on as many as I can both engage and survive.|
Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
What happens to melee players who are not softcapped on this encounter?
Now they are both unable to attack BM directly for any extended period of time, and are probably not very suited for dealing with entire packs of swords on their own either. |
Also, are we assuming that such a character is typically unbuffed? My characters are usually in the mid-to upper 30s on their highest defense type (usually either Melee or L/S), meaning a single strong shield buff will softcap me. It's extremely common that I have buffs of this sort in a team setting. Sure, sometimes lack them, but it's not what I consider common.
Even when I have to survive on my own, sans buffs, I haven't had a problem contributing. I either spam my ranged attack on BM (when I have them) or hunt down BM's human accomplices (not swords unless I am trying to save someone from them).
* For example, I prefer Positional to Damage Typed defense on things like my DM/Regen and DB/Regen because it creates less variation in survivability based on foe type. This means these characters typically cap out at 35-38% melee defense.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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I didn't say nobody leveled; in fact all of us did in the course of the TF. Nevertheless facing LR our highest was an untrained, just dinged 49.
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Originally Posted by New Dawn
So you all started the TF at 48 and didn't lvl during it? Buffs would be better than debuffs as debuffs pretty much get resisted to nought. It would be doable for 8*48s but like you say a very good team mix. 2*lvl50s duo'd it I believe so why not.
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COH has just been murdered by NCSoft. http://www.change.org/petitions/ncso...city-of-heroes
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Fair enough. Although, if you did have both combat jumping and ranged softcap, I think you would be able to kite these enemies as I described.|
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
The characters I bring generally ARE IOed. Just not capped to slash/lethal specifically, because outside of this encounter and a few others, ranged defense is often more important to me.
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Admittedly Ranged Softcap + Combat Jumping would be kind of an odd pairing.
I think Hover might be more the issue here than whether you went for Ranged Def over SM/L.
Hover is great if you have to, well, hover.
I can't stand it personally, it drives me nuts. Combat Jumping + Hurdle provides an amazing level of mobility for minimal investment - and for times I might actually want to hover blast I usually just deal with the penalties and use my Raptor Pack.
That's not to say that Hover isn't good. It just doesn't suite my playstyle and I think for this TF, CJ is a stronger option.
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Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
My Ice/Fire Dominator and Ice/Rad Controller usually survive due to a combination of Ice Slick, Glacier, Choking Cloud, Shiver, and other powers. Little of that helps them here.
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Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
The Ice/Rad/Psi Controller is an interesting case study. In order to prevent BM from sunbathing in a damage patch, he has to avoid using holds and immobs. At this point, the character is basically using Psi Blast at half damage due to lack of Containment, Radiation Infection which is over 90% resisted, and the heal and buff aura on whoever I can manage to stand next to long enough to hit, while running away from any swords that take interest in him. Lingering Radiation can be used every 30 seconds or so to debuff regen (thankfully she resists most of the -run speed), and Enervating Field reduces her attack strength and debuffs her resistance by 2% more than a Tanker's Bruising ability. If he does get cornered by swords, he can survive approximately three strikes before dying.
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So in this fight my Fire/Rad:
- Debuffs packs of Swords/Warriors with EF & RI and "keeping them occupied"
while kiting around the area (I also whittle away at them with RoF & Fireballs) - Laying down the smacketh on BM's regen.
- Applying a mostly uninterrupted stream of damage on BM.
- Sometimes I can even hop close to someone who needs healing and tickle them with RA. Yeah, it makes me laugh too.
- Veng > Fallout > Mutate people who die for giggles.
- Keeping the whole team buffed with AM slotted for End Mod (although, I don't worry about getting everyone).
Another note: You only need to avoid holds & immobs on BM if you're on a melee heavy team.
If you have a 1-2 Melee + Ranged/Support, with strong enough controls on the team, you are free to lock down BM where ever she feels like having tea and unload on her.
The melee's get relegated to "minion duty".
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Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
If we're going to say that he makes other characters ineffective, we have to consider the best other characters have to offer in their end states too. This is no different than why you can't compare an IOed Scrapper to an SOed Tanker and conclude Tankers are not useful.
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I'm comparing the performance of 2 End State ranged characters, vs. an end state Brute. I spared almost no expense on the Fort & the Brute. The rad was done "relatively inexpensively".
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Originally Posted by UberGuy
Also, are we assuming that such a character is typically unbuffed?
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I was simply countering that if squishies can't expect to rely on buffs, neither can melees and that without buffs, not all melees can be expected to deal with packs of swords and warriors on their own.
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Originally Posted by UberGuy
Even when I have to survive on my own, sans buffs, I haven't had a problem contributing. I either spam my ranged attack on BM (when I have them) or hunt down BM's human accomplices (not swords unless I am trying to save someone from them).
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I was then told that melee's should be taking care of the swords/warriors to protect the squishies (which I already do).
Since we're going in circles now in this thread, I'll probably leave it here unless someone provides an interesting new idea.
@Tex, happy to discuss further in PMs if you like.
Just putting that out there, but this discussion seems to revolve around melees losing their effectiveness because they have to move out of the patch. At the same time there's a discussion about how ranged toons don't need melee help to avoid the enemies because they can just kite. Constantly running, even with ranged powers, is going to reduce your damage. The effectiveness of a ranged character is being reduced (just like the melees that are supposedly marginalized) if they're having to rely on constantly moving as a tactic for this battle.
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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Not running, jumping.|
Originally Posted by Dispari
Constatly running, even with ranged powers, is going to reduce your damage. The effectiveness of a ranged character is being reduced (just like the melees that are supposedly marginalized) if they're having to rely on constantly moving as a tactic for this battle.
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The loss is there, but it is minimal compared to the impact on a melee character in terms of their capability to deal damage.
It's not just the moving, it's that most melees will have at best, 1 or 2 ranged attacks and not a full suite of damage dealing ranged options.
Am I really a rare case in that I use "jump blasting" frequently? (Not just on this TF)
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My Blaster has almost softcapped range (41%) and Combat Jumping. I don't particularly like Flight/Hover so I take CJ for combat movement and use a combination of kiting, Caltrops, Web Grenade, Electrifying Fences and knockback to keep enemies at range.|
Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
Admittedly Ranged Softcap + Combat Jumping would be kind of an odd pairing.
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I will admit it's a somewhat esoteric build but it works well with my preferred play style.
My Fire/Rad is softcapped to ranged with CJ and Hover. I built it for ranged defense so I can solo GM's and other stuff. Ranged defense is nice, but it really limits your slotting when compared to S/L defense. Slotting all those Thunderstrikes is gross.
[U][URL="http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=251594"][/URL][/U]
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Forget the def bonus, I take CJ on *all* my toons just as a QoL issue. I hate not having CJ on melee toons for combat mobility, and most of my squishies have SS for movement, but again, not having CJ while running at 92.5 MPH is painful for maneuvering mid run. And again, for combat, esp w/free Hurdle, CJ makes you vastly more maneuverable w/no suppression.|
Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
My Blaster has almost softcapped range (41%) and Combat Jumping. I don't particularly like Flight/Hover so I take CJ for combat movement and use a combination of kiting, Caltrops, Web Grenade, Electrifying Fences and knockback to keep enemies at range.
I will admit it's a somewhat esoteric build but it works well with my preferred play style. |
The extra def and the ability to carry a LotG +rech are gravy.
An Offensive Guide to Ice Melee
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I'm pretty much the same except I use Super Jump as my travel power instead of Super Speed. My sole Controller had Jump Kick for a while because I wanted an extra attack at low levels but I ended up switching it for CJ because I found that I'm used to the combat maneuverability of CJ it's hard to play without it.
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Originally Posted by dave_p
Forget the def bonus, I take CJ on *all* my toons just as a QoL issue. I hate not having CJ on melee toons for combat mobility, and most of my squishies have SS for movement, but again, not having CJ while running at 92.5 MPH is painful for maneuvering mid run. And again, for combat, esp w/free Hurdle, CJ makes you vastly more maneuverable w/no suppression.
The extra def and the ability to carry a LotG +rech are gravy. |
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Nor did I claim it did. But there's a world of difference in contributing something and not contributing anything at all. Sadly, I feel that a lot of people here on the forums (and in game, particular in places like Freedom broadcast) completely gloss over that. Less becomes reduced to zero - anything that contributes less apparently should be deprecated.|
Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
I dont believe the contribution of 'spamming' a single ranged attack does not even remotely come close to the contribution of a ranged damage dealer or even moreso a Buffer/Debuffer who also has ranfed damage as well.
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I have absolutely zero problem with there being situations where melee contributes less than range, as long as they can contribute something meaningful. Given that the fight with BM is just a part of the TF, I absolutely feel like melee characters contribute enough to bother including. Case in point: I went on a 24 minute Apex with one Electric/Psi Dom and seven melees (four Scrappers, a Tanker, a melee-spec Widow and a Bane spec SoA). 24 minutes isn't a fantastic time, but it's awfully decent for that team composition.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
i'm gonna chime into this with a repeat of my very first apex run...
2 tankers, 3 scrappers, one blaster (me with dp/elec), an emp/elec(?) defender, and ill/rad troller.
we completed the TF in 31 minutes, i died 3-4 times the entire tf (one before the BM fight cuz i did something dumb) and only once from the patches of dooooooom. All in all we might have had around a dozen deaths or so, i really didn't count.
As the primary (read: pretty much the only real ranged damage as the def was doing his best to keep us buffed and vertical) ranged damage dealer, i'd say that the melees, while not working at peak effeciancy were certainly contributing to the BM fight. I like to think of Gunslinger Raiken as a complete badass (yeah...i'm just a smidge delusional)...but he's not THAT good!
All in all I look at Apex, and in particular the BM fight, from a comic book perspective. There have been many a time in comics/manga, and other media based on said comics/manga where the characters have run into situations where not all of them really had the tools to beat the weekly badguy (as it were) while some others did. This often boiled down to a situation of "Alright, I'll do what I can to keep them busy while you do your thing." BM is a good example of that, and kind of refreshing to see, honestly.
I remember the "Why a blaster?" thread that was rampant for a little while. As I recall...the tone of it was along the lines of why would/should anyone play a blaster when it's normal survivability was substandard to some others with comparable damage...blah blah blah.
THIS is why you play a blaster! For ONCE...a scrapper/tank/brute can't just stand in front of something and laugh as it struggles impotently to reduce it's green bar to the depths of Black. They can't, without serious risk to life and digital limb, just simply brawl (no...not the actual brawl POWER) an enemy until it finally falls in defeat. For ONCE...something as FINALLY been introduced that takes them out of their element. Welcome to the wonderful world that we squishies THRIVE IN!
Now...do your job...keep that wench off of us, and let us handle the rest. Get in your shots when and where you can...but leave the heavy lifting to us for a change.
We got this.
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Originally Posted by Smiling_Joe
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Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
My Blaster has almost softcapped range (41%) and Combat Jumping. I don't particularly like Flight/Hover so I take CJ for combat movement and use a combination of kiting, Caltrops, Web Grenade, Electrifying Fences and knockback to keep enemies at range.
I will admit it's a somewhat esoteric build but it works well with my preferred play style. |
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Originally Posted by Fiery-Enforcer
My Fire/Rad is softcapped to ranged with CJ and Hover. I built it for ranged defense so I can solo GM's and other stuff. Ranged defense is nice, but it really limits your slotting when compared to S/L defense. Slotting all those Thunderstrikes is gross.
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Originally Posted by dave_p
Forget the def bonus, I take CJ on *all* my toons just as a QoL issue. I hate not having CJ on melee toons for combat mobility, and most of my squishies have SS for movement, but again, not having CJ while running at 92.5 MPH is painful for maneuvering mid run. And again, for combat, esp w/free Hurdle, CJ makes you vastly more maneuverable w/no suppression.
The extra def and the ability to carry a LotG +rech are gravy. |
CJ + Hurdle has gone beyond QoL for me at this point. It's a must have.
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Originally Posted by RaikenX
THIS is why you play a blaster! For ONCE...a scrapper/tank/brute can't just stand in front of something and laugh as it struggles impotently to reduce it's green bar to the depths of Black. They can't, without serious risk to life and digital limb, just simply brawl (no...not the actual brawl POWER) an enemy until it finally falls in defeat. For ONCE...something as FINALLY been introduced that takes them out of their element. Welcome to the wonderful world that we squishies THRIVE IN!
Now...do your job...keep that wench off of us, and let us handle the rest. Get in your shots when and where you can...but leave the heavy lifting to us for a change. We got this. |
Sort of...
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All of my Ranged soft cap characters have Combat Jumping. I think exactly the opposite of what you said is true: very few characters with Ranged soft cap would not have Combat Jumping. The power has too many benefits. In particular, low endurance cost, easy LotG slotting, being accessible with only 1 power pick, and most importantly, immobilize protection to allow you to run away and stay ranged.|
Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
Fair enough. Although, if you did have both combat jumping and ranged softcap, I think you would be able to kite these enemies as I described.
Admittedly Ranged Softcap + Combat Jumping would be kind of an odd pairing. |
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| Combat Jumping + Hurdle provides an amazing level of mobility for minimal investment. |
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| That's why I use EF & RI on the swords & warriors instead of BM, LR gets applied to BM. |
RI may be a different story. I would use it if totally desperate. I would still rather have actual armor. I suspect any swords I'd deal with with RI would cause even more problems when the AoE of it dragged a few more swords back to me. I also think it's kind of weird/unfair that you write off all of my controls failing to function as not a very significant handicap, as that is basically or nearly the same thing as the halberds bypassing armor and forcing you to move, which is what prompted you to say that melees are marginalized.
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Actually...the point WAS to be a little ridiculous. But as to making your case (be it sort of or not) you forget what i had said just moments before in that post.|
Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
Your post, although ridiculous, is actually making the case for me.
Sort of... |
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| As the primary (read: pretty much the only real ranged damage as the def was doing his best to keep us buffed and vertical) ranged damage dealer, i'd say that the melees, while not working at peak effeciancy were certainly contributing to the BM fight. I like to think of Gunslinger Raiken as a complete badass (yeah...i'm just a smidge delusional)...but he's not THAT good! |
I don't think the BM fight marginalizes melee'ers...particularly in respect to the ENTIRE TF. The BM fight itself may not be their shining moment of glory in the sun because they can't do what they would NORMALLY do...but their contributions can still go a long way. I didn't take down BM by myself. There's just no way...my toon isn't built THAT GOOD. The melee toons on my team contributed as much, and quite likely, MORE damage to BM in that fight than i did.
More simply...it takes them out of their comfortable element and forces them to change up tactics.
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only bad ones.|
Originally Posted by RaikenX
I don't think the BM fight marginalizes melee'ers...
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The TF has one trick. Don't stand in the blue light. Other MMOs have encounters with fights that have 5, 10 or 15 different aspects you have to manage. This game is staggeringly easy so long as you have a net connection that doesn't clunk out and suddenly give you enormous latency.
Melee are built with a lot of survivability, and they tend to have some kind of ranged attacks if not in their primary then likely in their epic/patron pools.
The damage really isn't that bad. You can comfortably joust through it (ie: build up some momentum, queue heavy hitting attack as you leap, land outside and complete for high damage) or plink away with your attacks (fire blasts, glooms, ranged AOE attacks, veteran attacks). Even just barely a few basic attacks you can easily fill in the time between when you can fight and when you can't. Plus a great deal of the time you should be able to pull her out of the blue zones anyway.
I've played on 3 of these, all failures. The first one I thought was total BS and swore I'd never do another one. I was on a Blaster and we never even got BM down the first time.
Tried it again on a BS/Shield Scrapper after cooling off for a few days. Failed again but we defeated BM in good order the first time and had her down close the second time. I chalk this one up to player fatigue...it was late.
Tried it one last time on yet another character (Ice/Storm Troller) and again we failed. It was similar to the first time where we never even got close. Through all of this I managed to puzzle out several things:
Hover is great. Go high enough to avoid Swords but not high enough to cause Spears to drop on teammate's heads (they hate that...).
Combat Jumping is good too. In, hit, out was the techniqe for my Scrapper. Even though we failed I had a great time. Que ONE attack, jump in range, strike and jump out.
Kill the Champions. We failed to do this and they clustered near the door while we fought BM. Anyone coming through the door got shot down fast.
Click debuffs are better than toggles because they work after you've moved out of range.
Any sort of -Regen is good. Rad is great as is Poison from MMs.
My only complaint after running (and failing) three times on three different characters is having Spears dropping near the door. I think it's unfair to have a character zone in and get bashed by a BSoD they couldn't see. There ought to be a no-fall zone for like 10' near the door or something. Other than that I like it.
Btw if anyone who has finished this thing would like to run a team through it I WOULD like to complete it someday. I don't need to hit Master level or anything...just finish it. I'm @Model Nine on Virtue, Triumph and Champion.
"Comics, you're not a Mastermind...you're an Overlord!"
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Wow, that sounds like you've had a really bad experience with it |
Originally Posted by Comicsluvr
Btw if anyone who has finished this thing would like to run a team through it I WOULD like to complete it someday. I don't need to hit Master level or anything...just finish it. I'm @Model Nine on Virtue, Triumph and Champion.
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. I can run it with you on Virtue sometime if you want.
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Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
Wow, that sounds like you've had a really bad experience with it
. I can run it with you on Virtue sometime if you want. |
I can back Adeon back on this. His teams are great.
What happens to melee players who are not softcapped on this encounter?
Now they are both unable to attack BM directly for any extended period of time, and are probably not very suited for dealing with entire packs of swords on their own either.
All of those buffs that earlier in the thread you mentioned squishes might not be in range for? The melee player might not be in range for them either.
How useful is this character?
Sure you may have melee ATs along that are not uber. My Kat/Regen/Blaze for example. She is IOd to the gills... for run speed. She has a modest level of global recharge (27%) and that is all she gets from IOs that helps her survive. But I feel much stronger on her than many of my squishies. I can't be knocked down. I can't be stunned. I can use my secondary to help me live.
I'd like to know why my Softcapped to SM/L Corr would be considered by some to be an outlier in terms of performance, and yet that's not really considered when we discuss the melee side.
I think there has been a running bias in this thread the melees should be able to take care of themselves. Not everyone has a self heal, not everyone is softcapped.
That being said, Apex is designed to be tougher than your normal stuff. It does indeed expect more than the baseline SO performance (although more than SOs is not required, this TF is not strictly designed like past TFs, a good IO build is definitely preferable here and some level of incarnate ability is also a good plan).
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.