Insanity of moving blue spots while you have powers that root you.
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2011-03-02 07:38 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
Statesman didn't like "jousting" even tho you can do exactly what he was talking about with a KINETIC.
The suppression doesn't take affect and ask any squishie what happens if you are in range and fire a power off? It doesn't matter how far or fast you run the reply attack hits you around corners or at any range.
It was a strawman arguement and it makes the game less dynamic.
Quote:
Blasphemer!! You have broken the Ultimate Rule - You are not allowed to Observe and learn from your observations! We will be docking you One Internets for your sacreligious transgression!|
Originally Posted by Supermax
The biggest problem was actually doing damage to BM. I have a theory that -speed debuffs actually hurt the team. I was desperatly trying to taunt her out of the patches so we could attack her, but she was practically running in one spot from all the slows. So there was simply no way to get her out of the blue. Every time we just had to wait for the patch under her to disappear.
|
Seriously, good observation - this (speed debuffs on BM) might be one of those things you'd want to avoid using during this TF. Conversely, speed buffs on the team might be a goood thing to have! <shrug>
Arc #6015 - Coming Unglued
"A good n00b-sauce is based on a good n00b-roux." - The Masque
Quote:
Once again, can you please form a cogent argument and type it with full sentences and punctuation, so I don't have to stare at it for 10 minutes to figure out exactly what you are saying??? I am old and do not read textingspeek.
|
Originally Posted by Infernus_Hades
Statesman didn't like "jousting" even tho you can do exactly what he was talking about with a KINETIC.
The suppression doesn't take affect and ask any squishie what happens if you are in range and fire a power off? It doesn't matter how far or fast you run the reply attack hits you around corners or at any range. It was a strawman arguement and it makes the game less dynamic. |
Arc #6015 - Coming Unglued
"A good n00b-sauce is based on a good n00b-roux." - The Masque
Quote:
This is very true. My standard practice against AVs with all 3 of my incarnates is to spam them with web grenades since that allows some of my other powers (specifically ignite and/or poison gas trap depending on which character) to work more effectively. With Battle Maiden I try to avoid that because while it makes things easier for me it it going to cause a lot of problems for the melee characters on the team.|
Originally Posted by Supermax
The biggest problem was actually doing damage to BM. I have a theory that -speed debuffs actually hurt the team. I was desperatly trying to taunt her out of the patches so we could attack her, but she was practically running in one spot from all the slows. So there was simply no way to get her out of the blue. Every time we just had to wait for the patch under her to disappear. The whole fight took probably 30 mins. Overall, definitely fun. But I may have had a different opinion if I had been on a squishy
 |
Now the potential issue here is what if you have both controllers and melee characters on the team? I think at that point the team has to make a decision letting her run free will increase the damage the melee types can do while immobilizing her will increase the controller's damage due to containment. I don't think there's a single good answer here, in either case someone is being forced to perform sub-optimally so it really depends on team composition. The upside is both character types have another use in the fight controlling the ambushes so even if they aren't able to do max damage against BM they aren't useless.
Quote:
And THIS is where the New TFs SHINE. Weigh the choices, act as a TEAM, not 8 crazy people. Learn what effects your powers have on others' ability to help. We all have lots of tools in our toolboxes, but sometimes a hammer is not what is called for.
|
Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
This is very true. My standard practice against AVs with all 3 of my incarnates is to spam them with web grenades since that allows some of my other powers (specifically ignite and/or poison gas trap depending on which character) to work more effectively. With Battle Maiden I try to avoid that because while it makes things easier for me it it going to cause a lot of problems for the melee characters on the team.
Now the potential issue here is what if you have both controllers and melee characters on the team? I think at that point the team has to make a decision letting her run free will increase the damage the melee types can do while immobilizing her will increase the controller's damage due to containment. I don't think there's a single good answer here, in either case someone is being forced to perform sub-optimally so it really depends on team composition. The upside is both character types have another use in the fight controlling the ambushes so even if they aren't able to do max damage against BM they aren't useless. |
Arc #6015 - Coming Unglued
"A good n00b-sauce is based on a good n00b-roux." - The Masque
Quote:
Gimmicks are not always bad things. A gimmick can be something good, or it can be something bad. It just means it works differently and has its own way of doing things. Recluse's fight in the STF is a gimmick. Hamidon's battle mechanics are a gimmick. The villainside Reichsman fight is gimmicky. For better or worse, good or bad, hard or easy, these are all gimmicks.|
Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
It's not hard, it's a gimmick.
|
It may not be hard for you, but hard may not have even been the goal. Just "different." Some people find different interesting. I think it's a fun fight since it makes me pay attention rather than just executing my attack chain over and over. On some chars like MMs and my Dom, the battlefield even has so much going on I can barely keep up at times. That's far more interesting than most of the game.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
|
Gimmick? I don't know, maybe.
Fun as hell? I think so.
The BM encounter has to be my favorite fight in the game on live right now, just because of the dancelike chaos that ensues, and all just from forcing people to go and move. The whole thing keeps me on my toes, rather than just mechanically hitting my attack chain over and over and over.
It's the thrill of playing a /Regen without having to build an entire character around that draining level of continual alertness. It lets me visit Happy Intense Attention Regen Land without having to live there.
I actually hope most of the Incarnate Trials are like that as well. Places I have to continually pay attention to my surroundings and can survive with the appropriate response, rather than just hope my teams' numbers beat their numbers.
Quote:
In the end people will most likely keep doing what they want, at least on PUGs. In my experience, it's hard to force someone to do something they don't want to do, even if it benefits the team. And being asked to stop using certain key powers really angers some people...to the point where they actually quit the team. I've personally seen people throw a total fit when asked not to use ONE power that is disrupting the team.|
Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
Now the potential issue here is what if you have both controllers and melee characters on the team?
|
In my team's case, we had 2 kins and a rad. Which means BM constantly had AT LEAST 2 siphon speeds and a LR on her. Asking 3 people (38% of the team) to not use their powers...I'm not sure how well it would have gone over. Plus in the case of LR...you have to weigh the benefit of the -regen with the negative effect of -speed.
Of course I'm not saying that teamwork is bad. But considering the fact that the VAST majority of TF's are PUGs, not coordinated teams of friends, we can expect these sorts of issues to become very common.
These TF's, more so than anything else in the game, will REQUIRE the team to have a good leader that will spell out some rules at the beginning and NOT accept anybody that refuses to follow the rules. Considering a TF can be started by absolutely any newbie, this may cause problems. Thankfully it's not too hard to figure out whether a person knows what they're doing or not.
Quote:
Sure I've seen it as well. Still at the end of the day that is why the devs gave us player notes.|
Originally Posted by Supermax
In the end people will most likely keep doing what they want, at least on PUGs. In my experience, it's hard to force someone to do something they don't want to do, even if it benefits the team. And being asked to stop using certain key powers really angers some people...to the point where they actually quit the team. I've personally seen people throw a total fit when asked not to use ONE power that is disrupting the team.
|
Quote:
| In my team's case, we had 2 kins and a rad. Which means BM constantly had AT LEAST 2 siphon speeds and a LR on her. Asking 3 people (38% of the team) to not use their powers...I'm not sure how well it would have gone over. Plus in the case of LR...you have to weigh the benefit of the -regen with the negative effect of -speed. |
But then as you say, trying to convince people that their powers are hindering the team is an uphill battle. I had a case once on my tank where the Fire controller on the team would cast bonfire directly under me before casting Fire Cages. When I pointed this out to him he insisted that the damage from bonfire was worth it, completely ignoring the fact that bonfire wasn't doing any damage due to enemies being immobilized outside it's radius. Although in his defense he did at least stop when I asked him politely.
QR
lrn2jumpcancel
hell lrn2attack while moving. it really isn't difficult at all.
Positron's i13 letter: We are trying to make PvP more accessible to new players, while giving experienced PvP'ers the advantage that comes with formulating tactics around the new systems we're putting in place. PvP from now on will be on our priority list. If something isn't working out, we'll be in there tweaking it and making it work, for the entire future of the product, not just Issue 13.
Quote:
Good point. The Scrapper, Tanker, and Stalker on the Apex run i did Wednesday night each died at least 5 times each and my Defender didn't die once. Battle Maiden spent most of her time chasing me around since the non squishies kept dying and losing aggro while i kept my debuffs running and blasted away at her. i was half tempted to type, "lol Battle Maiden, u mad?" as she chased me. Sadly the need to keep moving and queuing attacks while paying attention to the patch warnings made it seem like a bad idea.
|
Originally Posted by Another_Fan
This. The TF really plays up the gap between squishy and non squishy archetypes.
|
Dr. Todt's theme.
i make stuff...
I'm sure the last time this came up it was pointed out that theres not a single non-interuptable power in the game that roots for longer than the warning time.
And if your stupid enough to go stand somewhere after you've been wanred not to and click off a power, more the fool you.
You want hard work, try keeping yourself and 6 pets alive through the encounter.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by VoodooGirl
[*]Watching out for the Spinning Disco Portal of D00M!*
|
Quote:
Trying to pull BM out of the blue is what I consider stage 2 strategy. It can work fine, but IME actually makes it harder. It is definitely the 2nd thing I tried after the initial strategy of do whatever and see what happens.|
Originally Posted by Supermax
The biggest problem was actually doing damage to BM. I have a theory that -speed debuffs actually hurt the team. I was desperatly trying to taunt her out of the patches so we could attack her, but she was practically running in one spot from all the slows. So there was simply no way to get her out of the blue.
|
The fight is simpler if you actually do immob/slow her. Alternate between attacking her in melee, then, when the blue death drops on her, have the melee back off and collect other aggro while the rangers stay on BM. When the next wave of swords drop, she will be clear again, the melee move back in on BM. One of the keys to the movement is actually purposely choosing where you want the blue patches. Sometimes it is very convenient to move a good distance away during the armored gather aggro phase (if possible), just to keep the area near BM a bit more clear.
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
Quote:
What's great about that strategy is that when the BRoD clears about BM and the melee moves back in dragging the adds, it then clusters them all together so that the AoE on BM kills everything.
|
Originally Posted by StratoNexus
Trying to pull BM out of the blue is what I consider stage 2 strategy. It can work fine, but IME actually makes it harder. It is definitely the 2nd thing I tried after the initial strategy of do whatever and see what happens.
The fight is simpler if you actually do immob/slow her. Alternate between attacking her in melee, then, when the blue death drops on her, have the melee back off and collect other aggro while the rangers stay on BM. When the next wave of swords drop, she will be clear again, the melee move back in on BM. One of the keys to the movement is actually purposely choosing where you want the blue patches. Sometimes it is very convenient to move a good distance away during the armored gather aggro phase (if possible), just to keep the area near BM a bit more clear. |
Speeding Through New DA Repeatables || Spreadsheet o' Enhancements || Zombie Skins: better skins for these forums || Guide to Guides
Yesterday evening I had a team with two controller (both illusion), a dom, two brutes and two corrs and one other (i cannot remember what he was) We did it under 40 minutes. I kept moving out of the blue deaths by listening and watching the patches only died once due to rooting. Mind you most of the team (if not all) were level shifted. I moved using hover which did seem ideal. The trick is not to close to the ground of to high in the air. Keep moving after one or two attacks.
I was actually surprised how fast it went. In my previous attempts it went a lot slower. I do think being level shifted helps. As having a lot of ranged moving around. I must try it with some melee toons now hopefully the tactic of last night will help me.
IMO it's great to have TF's like Apex that take people out of their comfort zones and force them to think about what they're doing. Maybe those people will become better players overall as a result.
Quote:
It is not a bug having a color that some people cannot see well. If a team-mate has powers colored the same color, they are not griefing you. On my toons with different costumes, the color of my powers are all the same, so shouild I be kicked from the team because someone else cannot see them well? |
Originally Posted by je_saist
If for some reason you are Blue Colorblind and simply cannot SEE the spear falling pre-animation, fine, go file a bug report that you have a physical disability that prevents you from playing through that encounter. Technical problems like players being unable to see the spear's pre-animation can be dealt with.
If you have a team-mate who has blue colored powers similar to the spear's color, ask them to switch to a costume without those power-colors. If the team-mate refuses, ask the leader to kick said team-mate for griefing. Again, this is a problem that can be worked around. |
Mind you, this is coming from someone who is color blind and I have never been able to see the spear attack until it hits. I have just learned to attack and move, attack and move even on my brutes. It is my problem to deal with, and I think it is just plain stupid to think that other people are trying to make things harder on me because of it.
I think Hail of bullets might root you longer than the warning time, if you get unlucky and use it just before the circles appear.
Anyway, I really enjoy the criticism that "it's a gimmick," which people say as though it somehow means something. Everything's "a gimmick."
@Dysc, on virtue:
Virtue blues: Overnight (DP/MM), Kid Ridiculous (FC/rad), Panorama (Ill/time)
Virtue reds: Block Party (SS/SD), Goldcrush (earth/fire), Deadwire (claws/elec), Snowcrush (ice/kin)
Having played a healing priest in WoW, when you have to watch the HPs of 24 other people, manage your mana (endurance), cast debuffs on the boss or remove debuffs from your raid group, while running and dodging environmental damage that have at most 4 seconds of warning, the Battle Maiden fight is chicken feed.
However, I also never do WoW team content in pugs. They are fun when done with a group of people who play as well as you, but absolute hell when you find yourself mired in the general mediocrity of the riff raff.
So while I welcome more challenge that require movement in fights, they should not be so hard that they are only fun when done with your own friends. I'd like to be able to hop on a pug and still be able to rely on the general skill level of the other players to complete the TF.
It's fine balance. Battle Maiden isn't too hard, but the devs have to be careful to not raise the threshold too high for future content.
We had someone with a blue Ice Slick on Tuesday night, which resulted in my stone tank missing a blue warning. We must have had some good healing on that team, or I must have fired off EoE at the right time, not sure, but as the ice slick cleared I noticed the fading blue patch, which I had stood through without even noticing. Made me happy. 
Tried it again later... not so lucky. 
Quote:
Hail of Bullets has a 5 second duration, meaning you have 3 seconds to move if you fire the power as the warning pops up.
|
Originally Posted by Silencer7
I think Hail of bullets might root you longer than the warning time, if you get unlucky and use it just before the circles appear.
|
@Diggis - the damage of the blue patch seems to go up and down as the fight progresses, at least in my experience. During the early part it only hits for about 100 (50+50 unresistable) per tick and many melee ATs can easily stand there and keep throwing punches. At some point it goes up to 400 damage per tick and it's much harder to stand still.
Quote:
Ahh, that might explain it. |
Originally Posted by Nihilii
@Diggis - the damage of the blue patch seems to go up and down as the fight progresses, at least in my experience. During the early part it only hits for about 100 (50+50 unresistable) per tick and many melee ATs can easily stand there and keep throwing punches. At some point it goes up to 400 damage per tick and it's much harder to stand still.
|
Just to add:
Last night, did my first APEX run with my Ice/Nrgy blaster. 45 minutes later, we had Master of Apex without even trying. This is by no means the most difficult Task Force. Did we die? Heck yes. But, being a blaster, I'm so used to death that I didn't even consider it unusual. Until the melee characters mentioned it.
So, exotic type unresistable damage cut them down and made them feel squishy and ineffective. Until we finished, got all the badges and then they were even more psyched than I was about it.
I suppose the experience as a whole is way outside of the comfort zone of some players who are used to being able to handle almost anything. You can't stay locked toe to toe with The Maiden and pound away. And melee is supposed to go toe to toe and pound away, so it's a force out of the usual role.
That being said, just after we finished, a group on Pinnacle finished an 'all melee' master apex run successfully in 35 minutes. And they had bragging rights for the next hour.
Point being, many many people of all archetypes enjoy this Task Force, and can complete it with almost any group. So, whether it's a gimmick or not, people like it. It works.
I think I would change the title of this thread to:
"Insanity of using powers that root you while getting hit with moving blue spots."
Wash: "I've been under fire before. Well ... I've been in a fire. Actually, I was fired. I can handle myself."
Yeah I mean't Mo'ing as in the normal way I always mean Mo'ing it, no defeats. I am not a badger so couldn't give a toot. I aint ever even looked at the badge for it.
I'm not sure what anyone feels is of value in defeating the TF with no deaths, one is as meaningful/meaningless as the other (badges vs defeating a TF with no defeats). I am positive that it can be completed with no deaths, just like nearly anything in this game if one takes care and plans ahead... but yes, I'm sure it would be difficult.
Arc #6015 - Coming Unglued
"A good n00b-sauce is based on a good n00b-roux." - The Masque