Insanity of moving blue spots while you have powers that root you.
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2011-03-02 07:38 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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While it is true that armors and other toggles that only affect you don't root you, it is ALSO true that when you are moving and activate those powers it completely overrides the animation of the power. It is reasonable to assume the same thing would happen if you removed rooting from attack powers, leaving you with nothing visibly happening and damage occurring out of nowhere. |
Originally Posted by Infernus_Hades
No, attack powers don't "require" rooting due to the engine. Understand ALL Armor powers used to root. The devs changed that to powers that ONLY AFFECT YOU - don't root now. I have been in the game since day one and so the powers and the affects on the players have changed many times - at some points in new content they have been bugged and NOT rooted when they should and were switched back.
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All of the attack animations in the game are designed from a stationary position, and most of them would look extremely stupid if you could move while animating them.
It's not as simple as "Just remove the rooting", because animation time plays a role in how powers are balanced against each other. Animation time is directly connected to root time.
In order to remove rooting, and NOT have every attack in the game look pants-on-head stupid, they would more than likely have to re-code and re-animate every power in the game with both a moving and stationary version.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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Ha! See there Battle Maiden? I just fireballed you in the face WITH MY MIND!
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Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
All of the attack animations in the game are designed from a stationary position, and most of them would look extremely stupid if you could move while animating them.
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The only character I have any real trouble with in the Battle baiden fight is my Mastermind and that's because I swear the Devs, intentionally or accidentally, gave the game a rather strange sense of humor. I can go for much of the fight with pets out and the blue seems to not really care about me that much, but then it murders my pets and the very second I start to drop one, it suddenly notices me and comes over to take a look at what I'm doing. While it rarely kills me, it kills the pets I just dropped and then it goes off to laugh at me.
I did this again last night, this time on a blaster instead of a tank, and BM was killed in like 10 mins. We had tons of ranged damage, and I don't think the entire team had a single death on the BM fight. The fight is definitely about 10 times easier on a ranged toon.
Yup. My Fire/dark corr just laughed.
Controllers, Blappers and melee are the ones who can have the close attacks that get you caught. I have the master of on all of mine but it seems rather meaningless with deaths on the team - just to me anyways.
One problem with the Battle Maiden encounter is that when you're standing in certain places, such as the low mounds, the terrain often blocks the graphic that's supposed to alert you. Similarly, if you're using powers that obscure your view of the ground (Freezing Rain, Earthquake, Quicksand, Hurricane), it's much more difficult to see the signs that tell you impending doom is coming.
It's too late to change this mission, but future encounters should be designed to give all players a heads up regardless of what power set the character is using.
I have mostly played ranged characters in this mission so far, and I haven't been mezzed much at all. Though it's a given that I always carry 4 breakfrees on those characters.
Once you've done this mission a few times avoiding instant death isn't terribly difficult -- if you're just watching out for yourself. At this point I'm getting killed trying to keep other characters alive, while at the same time trying to do some damage against Battle Maiden, avoiding dancing swords and champions. This mission requires a serious amount of multitasking, especially for support characters.
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Originally Posted by Supermax
I did this again last night, this time on a blaster instead of a tank, and BM was killed in like 10 mins. We had tons of ranged damage, and I don't think the entire team had a single death on the BM fight. The fight is definitely about 10 times easier on a ranged toon.
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Which seems to me to be the devs' response to the complaints over the years that melee characters are overpowered. They introduced encounters that melee characters are at a significant disadvantage in.
Both Trapdoor, and from what I understand the BM fight in Apex (haven't run it yet) are noticeably easier on ranged characters than melee. Trapdoor is easier on a ranged character because you don't have to move as much to kill his bifurcations with ranged attacks, where with a melee character you have to run all over the room to get them and he regenerates in the meantime.
So, if you have ever complained about how overpowered melee characters are compared to ranged characters, you are partially to blame for melee characters getting screwed in the Battle Maiden fight.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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learn to evolve. It is a very simple fight compared to end game content in WOW.|
Originally Posted by Infernus_Hades
Well I would not have an issue with it except for one thing - why am I rooted?
If I could attack, bunny hop or whatever as you can in most games and in fact rooting is added in this game and occasionally it has been dropped on some powers by accident - why am I rooted? |
There is a limitation in this game engine. It, as yet, can not animate the top half of the body separate from the bottom. The feet can not be running while the arms are 'casting.'
I thought the whole jumping up and down while still using powers at full speed was a bit silly in wow. Something melee characters could easily do but casters could not.
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Actually, it can't play 2 animations at once. You have the movement animation, and the attack animation. |
Originally Posted by _Zep_
learn to evolve. It is a very simple fight compared to end game content in WOW.
There is a limitation in this game engine. It, as yet, can not animate the top half of the body separate from the bottom. The feet can not be running while the arms are 'casting.' I thought the whole jumping up and down while still using powers at full speed was a bit silly in wow. Something melee characters could easily do but casters could not. |
You can try it for yourself. Log in any character with an armor power that does not root you and activate it while moving forward. No animation for the power happens at all because the movement animation overrides it.
In order to remove rooting they would have to add animations for: Running forward, back and sideways, jumping forward back and sideways, and flying forward back and sideways.
That's 9 new animations for ONE POWER. The powers that have multiple available animations would need 18. Then you have to multiply that by 3 for the 3 body types. So, a minimum of 27 animations for every power in the game, and it goes up to 54 for each power that has 2 choices.
So, every power in the game, including pool powers and APPs would need at least 27 new animations programmed for it.
That doesn't even take into account what the removal of rooting would do to the powersets themselves, or how much worse it would break PvP than it already is (a ranged character that doesn't have to ever stop moving would never be killed by a melee character again, for starters)
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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You can do the same thing with fly. Leadership and other of my toggles have activation animations that suppress when I am flying.|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
Actually, it can't play 2 animations at once. You have the movement animation, and the attack animation.
You can try it for yourself. Log in any character with an armor power that does not root you and activate it while moving forward. No animation for the power happens at all because the movement animation overrides it. ever stop moving would never be killed by a melee character again, for starters) |
There is a blue post somewhere I have read that talks about the whole top-half/bottom-half animation thing.... or maybe I heard it straight from a dev at the last meet and greet, I forget. Thinking more on it, it was the meet and greet in SF last October.
For the most part power animations use the upper body only. Separating the upper and lower body animations would allow moving and power use without all the extra art work your talking about.
This taskforce seemed a little bit hard the first time I ran it. A little. The first time.
Sooo easy.
5 second warning plus a sword animation before aoe's appear. That's a long time.
Apex is the most fun TF IMO (followed by ITF). It can be "short" and very action packed. The "blue flame" can be tricky and exciting!
Having said that, some powersets are just not as "enjoyable" as others. I don't particularly enjoy my Stalker in the first mission against those pylons/hydra. I have to rely on my range dps teammates for that.
And I will never bring my MMs to apex either because I don't want to re-summon so much and pretend that I am useful. Just because I manage to survive, it doesn't mean I am helping much.
My Fortunata has the best time in Apex because she is all ranged and hovering and survives really well.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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Is Stalker considered "melee character" because Stalker AT certainly isn't overpowered... (tears)
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Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
Which seems to me to be the devs' response to the complaints over the years that melee characters are overpowered. They introduced encounters that melee characters are at a significant disadvantage in.
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What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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We really need some tiny violin emotes.
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Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
Which seems to me to be the devs' response to the complaints over the years that melee characters are overpowered. They introduced encounters that melee characters are at a significant disadvantage in.
So, if you have ever complained about how overpowered melee characters are compared to ranged characters, you are partially to blame for melee characters getting screwed in the Battle Maiden fight. |
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Except they arent screwed in the BM fight.
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Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
So, if you have ever complained about how overpowered melee characters are compared to ranged characters, you are partially to blame for melee characters getting screwed in the Battle Maiden fight.
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Does that make you more or less of an outlier than the guy who never took longer than 35 minutes ?
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Originally Posted by Schismatrix
Good point. The Scrapper, Tanker, and Stalker on the Apex run i did Wednesday night each died at least 5 times each and my Defender didn't die once. Battle Maiden spent most of her time chasing me around since the non squishies kept dying and losing aggro while i kept my debuffs running and blasted away at her. i was half tempted to type, "lol Battle Maiden, u mad?" as she chased me. Sadly the need to keep moving and queuing attacks while paying attention to the patch warnings made it seem like a bad idea.
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No, but they do have a harder time than ranged characters.
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Originally Posted by ultrawatt
Except they arent screwed in the BM fight.
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Ask the many others in this thread and the corresponding threads in the General Discussions section of the forums who have had the same experience.|
Originally Posted by Another_Fan
Does that make you more or less of an outlier than the guy who never took longer than 35 minutes ?
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Or not. i think you generally only care about posts that confirm your preexisting biases, so it's probably a waste of time.
Moving on...
So, while my melee-centric types have had it a little tougher during the BM battle it's not that difficult once i learned to disengage my Scrapperlock and not simply stand stock still cycling attacks. Also, as suggested earlier in the thread, if a tank is taunting BM it's best to avoid the traditional AV battle tactic of spamming immobilizes on her. Kiting her around the battlefield is a more effective way to increase melee DPS.
Having run Apex several times each on a variety of ATs i've learned how to maneuver effectively during the final battle as well as useful tactics and tricks in the other parts of the TF. Most of my Incarnates also have at least the uncommon boost slotted and that does make a definite difference.
Dr. Todt's theme.
i make stuff...
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Basically, this. My melee types have only a little more trouble than my Blaster, and the fact that swords can't trouble them is pretty big. Once you get a handle on the timing of the patches the swords are the bigger threat.|
Originally Posted by Schismatrix
So, while my melee-centric types have had it a little tougher during the BM battle it's not that difficult once i learned to disengage my Scrapperlock and not simply stand stock still cycling attacks.
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Plus if you actually took a ranged attack or two in your Epic Pool you can still do damage while BM is standing in a patch, which gratifies me a little.
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My brute has Soul Mastery which gives 2 ranged attacks. Both SM attacks have a taunt, so BM follows me out of the blue and into... Lightning rod. |
Originally Posted by Kyria_Shirako
Basically, this. My melee types have only a little more trouble than my Blaster, and the fact that swords can't trouble them is pretty big. Once you get a handle on the timing of the patches the swords are the bigger threat.
Plus if you actually took a ranged attack or two in your Epic Pool you can still do damage while BM is standing in a patch, which gratifies me a little. |
As for the pylons, there's a -debuff around them and it stacks. The trick is to not stay there. So I do BU + LR + SC and then jump away from the hydras. While I wait for any debuff to wear off, I use the Soul ranged attacks. Then I jump next to the pylon, fire off 2 attacks and jump away. This also has a side-effect of the hydras focusing on me instead of squishies.
I wear my MoApex proudly.
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To be honest, all my deaths to blue patches have come not from standing in them rooted, but from moving *into* them by accident while flying or hopping around. Compared to dodging orbital cannons, the blue patches of death are no big deal really.|
Originally Posted by Kyria_Shirako
Once you get a handle on the timing of the patches the swords are the bigger threat.
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Someone mentioned Hail of Bullets. I think that is (one of) the worst case scenario(s). If you don't have the pistols drawn, you will take about 0.83 seconds to draw them, 3.5 seconds to shoot, 0.83 seconds to play a trailer root animation, and burn a total of 5.16 seconds. And you'd still have enough time to shoot one fast pistols attack and jump clear.
Now, if you join a pug full of players running nothing but blue auras, you might want to consider taking a break for a while. That's a team that is either trying to kill itself, or you, or both. Of course, if you already have MoApex but don't have all the debt badges yet, knock yourself out.
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Seeing as you threw that out there I thought you would have some idea how relevant it was. I guess you don't?|
Originally Posted by Schismatrix
Ask the many others in this thread and the corresponding threads in the General Discussions section of the forums who have had the same experience.
Or not. i think you generally only care about posts that confirm your preexisting biases, so it's probably a waste of time. |
Maybe 3 people playing their characters poorly don't do well ?
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That's a really good point. When the Apex TF was in beta after the first few minutes my Widow died more times from hopping into an existing patch than from standing in a new patch's target area. i guess it's really more about paying attention to overall positioning than anything else.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
To be honest, all my deaths to blue patches have come not from standing in them rooted, but from moving *into* them by accident while flying or hopping around.
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Dr. Todt's theme.
i make stuff...
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I was apprehensive about playing my MM on the Apex. |
Originally Posted by Jibikao
And I will never bring my MMs to apex either because I don't want to re-summon so much and pretend that I am useful. Just because I manage to survive, it doesn't mean I am helping much.
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However, after trying it, I find it very fun to play my MM on the Apex.
I really only make use of three commands during the BM fight. Attack my target-Defensive, Follow Me-Passive, Follow Me-Defensive.
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
First its not "hard" - the LONGEST Apex I have run now was 35 mintes.
I have done it multiple times on 3 different characters.
Corruptor no deaths in 3 runs.
Scrapper 1 death from pulling BM off a squishie and getting blued, screwed and tatto'd.
Controller multiple deaths due possibly to my power colors (blue and white Ice/Storm) or the swirling swords just catching up to us.
Ok, I will buy the "it's different" attempt - then make the battle more fluid, drop suppression and rooting during this fight. Then let's go to town.
No, attack powers don't "require" rooting due to the engine. Understand ALL Armor powers used to root. The devs changed that to powers that ONLY AFFECT YOU - don't root now. I have been in the game since day one and so the powers and the affects on the players have changed many times - at some points in new content they have been bugged and NOT rooted when they should and were switched back.
I used to hate being detoggled (another old effect) on my tanks and trying to jump into the fight only to fall as I hit each toggle and was rooted.
So you want something new? Fine let's make a TF where all the rooting on BOTH sides is dropped - enemies and players are not rooted. Now it would be a swirling dervish of battle and I would flatout love it.