Issue 20 info is up!


Adeon Hawkwood

 

Posted

After digging through this morass, and adding some of my own thoughts, I've yet to see anyone bring up the heart of the objection that some, perhaps most or all, of us have regarding the existing solo Incarnate advancement option currently being tested.

It's not that some people just don't want to team, it's that even the best efforts while solo will be so slow as to be indiscernible in regard to progress, and unless they're completely disabled outside of Incarnate content, Incarnate abilities are a form of progression, regardless of what the intention may have been. Progression is what drives games like this. Progression is what people strive to achieve. If progression weren't important, we wouldn't have levels, we wouldn't have slots for powers and we would have all of our powers available immediately upon creation. These things aren't the case, though, because games of this nature are designed with progression in mind.

Restricting that progression in such a manner that makes it seem impossible or so slow that it isn't worth attempting is the reason people find the solo option so objectionable that it's started a war on the forums.

One player can jump on a TF or Trial and make measurable, noticeable progress toward creating a Very Rare Judgement boost. That player can achieve that goal in one month.

Contrast that with what the solo player has to face. 1600 shards to create a Very Rare boost using the 10/6 conversion. In EvilGeko's thread discussing a proposed alternate method of progression for solo players, he suggests that 20 shards per day is a very high, perhaps unreasonable number to expect solo players to be capable of generating. But presuming that 20 per day is an attainable number, based on my own experiences, that still means it would take that player eleven weeks to create the same boost that the team player acquired in four weeks.

That's for a single boost. The solo player is looking at a rate of progression measured in increments so small that it's indiscernible to him/her without a microscope, whereas the team player not only ascends the ladder three times faster in that one subset of the Incarnate abilities, he/she is may also capable of ascending multiple ladders consecutively, unlocking slots and acquiring boosts even more quickly simply by running all available TFs and Trials. The team player can run the BAF, make progress toward unlocking a slot or accumulating salvage for a boost, then run Lambda and make similar progress on another slot or boost.

And the solo player has to shell out billions of inf* in addition to taking a minimum of three times as long to access the same abilities that the team player gets for "free".

Slower access, yes, that would be reasonable. Access at a pace three to six times slower, and with an attached requirement to generate billions of inf*, not reasonable, not equal, not acceptable. It has to be faster and cheaper. It doesn't have to be identical to the team option, but it has to be better than this. Expecting solo players to grind away with no reward in sight for 12-24 months to unlock all of the slots and gain all of the powers, when the teamed player can do the same in 2-4 months... that's the height of poor design and decision making.

In other words, we aren't complaining because we don't want to team with you. We aren't complaining because we don't want to put some work into advancing our characters. We're complaining because we don't want to grind for hours every day for the next one to two YEARS to achieve what some of you will be doing before summer begins, without grinding. The gap between solo and teamed options is just too big to be ignored or accepted. It needs to be brought closer to parity.


 

Posted

I20 look awesome, and fills me with yayfulness.

YAY! YAY! YAY!


Arc#314490: Zombie Ninja Pirates!
Defiant @Grouchybeast
Death is part of my attack chain.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow View Post
Guess that shows what they can do when they really care to do it. Does that by any chance filter down to Pools and Epics, too?

*edit*
And before the collective weight of the forums jump on my back for "derailing," this is relevant to the topic of recolourable Incarnate powers. One of the major limitations, as we have been told, is that the power customization US doesn't support Pool and Epic powers, and only supports powers we are GUARANTEED to have access to, those being all our primaries and all our secondaries. If this, and whatever other complications have been solved for the Incarnate system, does it not make sense to ask for the natural extension of that?
Or maybe, it's just easier to build customization into NEW powers/abilities than it is to go back to all the old ones and do it?

Could easily explain why the Incarnate powers are tintable, while the Pool/Epic Powers as of yet, are not.


BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by BrandX View Post
Or maybe, it's just easier to build customization into NEW powers/abilities than it is to go back to all the old ones and do it?

Could easily explain why the Incarnate powers are tintable, while the Pool/Epic Powers as of yet, are not.
Ding ding ding ding. We have a winner.

If you're coding something from scratch it's easier to incorporate the latest thinking / methodology on how to put the powers together rather than having to "crack open" with older powers to do so.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Luminara View Post
*lots of stuff*
If it will take 4 weeks for a person willing to team to get a reward, would you be happier with it taking a dedicated soloer 8 weeks to get the reward?

And are you making the assumption of soloers taking so long, based on your play schedule?

How long has it taken a dedicated soloer to achieve the Tier 4, who would only have to join one TF a week (as of now) to get the notice but could solo everything else?

While you may not like farming, I know last night one person in my SG had acheived 20 Shards in a 60-120 minutes of farming a map. Admittedly, I feel she just got extremely lucky in the RNG, but the point stood more for are you talking about a soloer who just does whatever, afks, speeds through missions, and doesn't kill all?

Or are you talking about just playing solo, but doing everything you can to get the rewards as fast as you can?


BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carnifax_NA View Post
Ding ding ding ding. We have a winner.

If you're coding something from scratch it's easier to incorporate the latest thinking / methodology on how to put the powers together rather than having to "crack open" with older powers to do so.

That would suggest remaking the power pools and disabling the old ones, give everyone a respec and then bingo?


Brawling Cactus from a distant planet.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by CactusBrawler View Post
That would suggest remaking the power pools and disabling the old ones, give everyone a respec and then bingo?
While it's often a good idea to "slash and burn" older code / data structures and just start from scratch the sort of woe this would cause for the customer base and the Support Staff dealing with "Why do I have to do this. Where are my powers? This sucks. you are idiots" wouldn't be worth it.

The best way to do pool and power customisation is the same way they did it for current AT powers, even if it means cracking open the old code / data structures, wrinkling your nose at the horrendous smell and diving in.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by CactusBrawler View Post
That would suggest remaking the power pools and disabling the old ones, give everyone a respec and then bingo?
While the majority of people loved inherent fitness. How many complained about having to do all that respecing?

I know people who still haven't respeced their mains out of inherent fitness because it requires, well, respecing.

Imagine doing what you suggested, where it's 100% mandatory, as the power pools (if I read your post correctly) wouldn't work at all without the respecing.

Even if you think the grandfathered in ones would still work, the gripes...they would be forever and ever...more so with some people having three builds now.


BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by BrandX View Post
While the majority of people loved inherent fitness. How many complained about having to do all that respecing?

I know people who still haven't respeced their mains out of inherent fitness because it requires, well, respecing.

Imagine doing what you suggested, where it's 100% mandatory, as the power pools (if I read your post correctly) wouldn't work at all without the respecing.

Even if you think the grandfathered in ones would still work, the gripes...they would be forever and ever...more so with some people having three builds now.

Personally I'd leave them in like old fitness has been. Just that from now own you can't select Super speed version1, but can select the new improved version.


Brawling Cactus from a distant planet.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow View Post
Guess that shows what they can do when they really care to do it. Does that by any chance filter down to Pools and Epics, too?

*edit*
And before the collective weight of the forums jump on my back for "derailing," this is relevant to the topic of recolourable Incarnate powers. One of the major limitations, as we have been told, is that the power customization US doesn't support Pool and Epic powers, and only supports powers we are GUARANTEED to have access to, those being all our primaries and all our secondaries. If this, and whatever other complications have been solved for the Incarnate system, does it not make sense to ask for the natural extension of that?
Two things have to happen for Power Pool Customization:

1. The tailor interface needs recoding to support it.

2. All the animations of the Power Pool Powers need to be rebuilt from scratch. BAB told us what he had to go through to 'convert' the old animations to colorable versions. Something which he did mostly on his own every time the development cycle didn't have him working on something else. And it was time consuming. It was done over 18 months if I recall.


With the customizable Incarnate 'Pools', it looks like number 1 is completed. Number 2 is going to require a lot of animator-hours still. And it will have to be prioritized for them to spend time on it... something which I don't think our Devs feel is as important as I or you do.

What allows the new powers to be customizable is that they're being created from scratch to be tintable. They're not creating untintable legacy versions and then converting them. They're simply creating new tintable ones from scratch.

Sometimes it's a lot easier to build a new house than to fully renovate an old one.


Speeding Through New DA Repeatables || Spreadsheet o' Enhancements || Zombie Skins: better skins for these forums || Guide to Guides

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Venture View Post
Do you seriously want me to recite the litany of sins committed by the recent so-called "writing"?
I actually haven't seen that list yet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow View Post
If this, and whatever other complications have been solved for the Incarnate system, does it not make sense to ask for the natural extension of that?
Well sure it makes sense. I'm sure they'll get around to it. I don't recall any time that the developers said they didn't want to.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carnifax_NA View Post
Ding ding ding ding. We have a winner.

If you're coding something from scratch it's easier to incorporate the latest thinking / methodology on how to put the powers together rather than having to "crack open" with older powers to do so.
^


61866 - A Series of Unfortunate Kidnappings - More than a coincidence?
2260 - The Burning of Hearts - A green-eyed monster holds the match.
379248 - The Spider Without Fangs - NEW - Some lessons learned (more or less.)

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zombie Man View Post
2. All the animations of the Power Pool Powers need to be rebuilt from scratch. BAB told us what he had to go through to 'convert' the old animations to colorable versions. Something which he did mostly on his own every time the development cycle didn't have him working on something else. And it was time consuming. It was done over 18 months if I recall.
I don't recall BABs ever talking about animations. He talked about FX - the coloured sprites our powers produce. The animations are identical, and indeed the same, but it's fairly evident that the sprites are entirely unique. In fact, in a lot of cases they're not even close. Original Energy Blast has a nice, grandient colour with gradient "power bubbles" waving around the effects. Bright Energy Blast, on the other hand, has sharp contrast and flat bubbles. It's a new effect made from scratch.

In either case, there aren't that many Pool powers in general, and I would bet dollars to doughnuts that Epic powers already have custom variant, as they're clones of powerset powers that were already customized.

That's not to say "You sods! Why didn't you do it!" so much as to say "Now that they found the motivation to work on it, I hope it will happen soon." It's shaping up so that my hopes are wavering between I21 and I22 for something that would blow me away. Pool/Epic customization would do just that.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow View Post
In either case, there aren't that many Pool powers in general, and I would bet dollars to doughnuts that Epic powers already have custom variant, as they're clones of powerset powers that were already customized.
And hell, I think what most people want for the power pools is a "No FX" option, something that doesn't require new art.


Branching Paragon Police Department Epic Archetype, please!

 

Posted

Did I miss that list of wiriting sins we were were asked if we wanted?


BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection

 

Posted

All that will take significant development time though, because if it didn't, for whatever reason, it would probably be done with already. Not to mention that the "No FX" option is actually an FX option but only for PvP, so it's likely even more complicated since you have to make it tintable for PvP but flag it so it has no lasting visual FX in PVE. Just making the statement that they will get it done whenever they want to do it doesn't make it easy. And doing so may mean that we miss out on the other things the art department needs to do to push out the incarnate content/other stuff that they're getting done.
We know the devs want to do it, but they're currently deep in the development cycle of a whole new part of hte game and have been for the last year or so. PP customization might use some of the same human resources as the some of the new stuff, so focusing on that might mean a delay of all the new stuff.


"Be a beacon?"

Blue Mourning: lvl. 50 Katana/DA
Bree the Barricade: lvl 50 Stone/Axe
Last Chance for Eden: lvl 50 Fire/Kin
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1 Minute to Midnight lvl 50 Spines/DA

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by BrandX View Post
Did I miss that list of wiriting sins we were were asked if we wanted?
Yeah, I'm kinda waiting for it as well. Also, for those making reference to TV Tropes in its summation, remember Tropes Are Not Bad.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by BrandX View Post
Did I miss that list of wiriting sins we were were asked if we wanted?
Either it was a rhetorical question or he really is working on it. It's a pretty long list. And as much as many people hate the term, Mary Sue is near the top of it.

At least, it's near the top of mine.


Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper

Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steel_Shaman View Post
That's not quite what I meant.
A new TF? I'll run that once, then probably not touch it again for a long while. That gives me a couple hours worth of content. Powerset proliferation on the other hand, gives me literally weeks to months of things to do. For example if they gave Illusion to Doms, I would probably try every single secondary with it. That's a lot of time and hence, a continued sub.

One type of those content updates keeps me subscribed pretty much indefinitely, while the other leaves me running out of things to do that I enjoy. I realize however that if the Devs were to devote all their resources to just the things I like, then folks who actually enjoy the Incarnate System would be in the same boat I am in right now. My hope is for the Devs to find a happy medium that keeps us all entertained.
I am going to have to disagree with you a little bit. Incarnate content is very time consuming, and intensive for every issue unlike power proliferation which provides far more amount of fun than a trial that will become obsolete down the line, regardless how hard they try to link the old incarnate trials with the new ones, because that is the inevitable fate of "end game content". Power proliferation is still in use, and enjoyed by everyone, new and old.

When they chose to open Pandora's box that was end game content, as a result, they signed a contract that they can't repay in full, due to the nature of this beast. I honestly don't think this game would have been as successful as it has been if it had an end game from day 1.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gemini_2099 View Post
When they chose to open Pandora's box that was end game content, as a result, they signed a contract that they can't repay in full, due to the nature of this beast.
They've bitten off more than they can chew, and now they have to sleep in this bed they made, walking the walk in addition to talking the talk... someone help me out, I'm running out of cliches...




Character index

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eva Destruction View Post
Either it was a rhetorical question or he really is working on it. It's a pretty long list. And as much as many people hate the term, Mary Sue is near the top of it.

At least, it's near the top of mine.
Why?

I think the term Mary Sue is only used, because it's someone elses character and not the players

The gave CoH their Superman...happens to be Statesman.

If Statesman is a Mary Sue, I can't help but think ALL the signature AVs would be Mary Sues. This includes Manticore and BaBs and Sister Psyche and Mako and the list goes on and on.

If this is about the stories written early on, like tossing a Rikti Mothership. Eh. Would sound more like, I want to toss a Rikti Mothership too!


BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gemini_2099 View Post
I am going to have to disagree with you a little bit. Incarnate content is very time consuming, and intensive for every issue unlike power proliferation which provides far more amount of fun than a trial that will become obsolete down the line, regardless how hard they try to link the old incarnate trials with the new ones, because that is the inevitable fate of "end game content". Power proliferation is still in use, and enjoyed by everyone, new and old.

When they chose to open Pandora's box that was end game content, as a result, they signed a contract that they can't repay in full, due to the nature of this beast. I honestly don't think this game would have been as successful as it has been if it had an end game from day 1.
We've been running the same content with out 50's for how long now?

I don't think the Devs are doomed to be like the other MMO, with it's end game content. They finish it up, people unlock their slots, then every now and again, they release a new TF for those who are incarnates.

Would be the perfect time for a new zone...like a Moon Zone. Only assessible by incarnates!


BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by BrandX View Post
Why?

I think the term Mary Sue is only used, because it's someone elses character and not the players

The gave CoH their Superman...happens to be Statesman.

If Statesman is a Mary Sue, I can't help but think ALL the signature AVs would be Mary Sues. This includes Manticore and BaBs and Sister Psyche and Mako and the list goes on and on.

If this is about the stories written early on, like tossing a Rikti Mothership. Eh. Would sound more like, I want to toss a Rikti Mothership too!
It has nothing to do with power level and everything to do with the storyline shifting to be all about him. Our characters are being turned from individuals doing whatever it is they do for whatever reason they have for doing it into soldiers in a war against evil Statesman. He is so important right now that we don't matter unless we're fighting him. All our new powers come from fighting him. The source of all our new powers, and (by retcon via Origin of Power) all of our original powers, is now linked to him.

Statesman is taking over the freaking multiverse, through a sudden, ham-handed power-up that basically comes down to "he's uber powerful because we said so." They're changing the rules of the game world to suit him. That's why he's a Mary Sue.


Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper

Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eva Destruction View Post
It has nothing to do with power level and everything to do with the storyline shifting to be all about him. Our characters are being turned from individuals doing whatever it is they do for whatever reason they have for doing it into soldiers in a war against evil Statesman. He is so important right now that we don't matter unless we're fighting him. All our new powers come from fighting him. The source of all our new powers, and (by retcon via Origin of Power) all of our original powers, is now linked to him.

Statesman is taking over the freaking multiverse, through a sudden, ham-handed power-up that basically comes down to "he's uber powerful because we said so." They're changing the rules of the game world to suit him. That's why he's a Mary Sue.
To be fair, that's only because he's the villain of the moment. When the Rikti were invading for an issue all the new systems and rewards were about them, it just wasn't "endgame" content. This is just a longer storyline than we're used to.


"Be a beacon?"

Blue Mourning: lvl. 50 Katana/DA
Bree the Barricade: lvl 50 Stone/Axe
Last Chance for Eden: lvl 50 Fire/Kin
Myra the Grey: lvl 50 Bots/Traps
1 Minute to Midnight lvl 50 Spines/DA

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eva Destruction View Post
It has nothing to do with power level and everything to do with the storyline shifting to be all about him. Our characters are being turned from individuals doing whatever it is they do for whatever reason they have for doing it into soldiers in a war against evil Statesman. He is so important right now that we don't matter unless we're fighting him. All our new powers come from fighting him. The source of all our new powers, and (by retcon via Origin of Power) all of our original powers, is now linked to him.

Statesman is taking over the freaking multiverse, through a sudden, ham-handed power-up that basically comes down to "he's uber powerful because we said so." They're changing the rules of the game world to suit him. That's why he's a Mary Sue.
Ooooh. So it's not really Statesman who's the Mary Sue, it's Marcus Cole.

Or does everyone else just like to think of them as the same person?

Ialways thought the original powers were linked to the Opening of the Well, so them being linked to that, doesn't seem new at all.

If they hadn't found the well, there wouldn't be any super genius tech creators, or mutants, spirits would still be locked away, aliens would skip over our planet, except for the occaissional Area 51 sighting.

And, would you have felt better about it, if they had picked someone else, or created some new to be all powerful? Same thing, except it isn't Marcus Cole?

They need to make the badguy for Incarnates super powerful, that would be the only reason to justify having 40+ heroes/villains teaming up to take one entity down.

We do that for Hami, is Hami a Mary Sue, being so powerful that we need to team up to take it down, and even then it's not even considered permanent in in game canon as I recall. It's more like you're driving him back untill he returns (so you can't even defeat him fully).


BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection

 

Posted

I posted this elsewhere so I'll repeat it here.

Statesman is the Superman of the world, yes but he wasn't really the be all and end all, not everything focused around him and during Troy's run on the comics he was actually very well written (every other handling of him seemed like the REALLY hated Superman and took out frustrations on our resident Superman expy).

Statesman is never really in the limelight that often and when he's presented ingame he's actually a lot more of a pushover than even some of his colleges on the Freedom Phalanx (he's Invuln/SS, yes he has a crashless unstoppable but so does Back Alley Brawler...Statesman just has that big AoE as well).

He cropped up where it made sense for someone like Superman to make a stand, against very powerful villains who brutally beat his Granddaughter (you'd be pissed too). Yes ye olde Statesman did smash a Rikti Mothership but that's not ingame and he isn't as stupidly overpowered ingame as he is in backstory, if anything with the introduction of IOs the players have far surpassed him before even taking the first step onto the Incarnate ladder

However with the introduction of Cimmerorea all that begun to change.

First we are introduced to his ancient times version, then to his Nazi version to the now uber-Incarnate level Praetorian version. He crops up everywhere and he's always the best of the best, miles better than any player.

Over the last couple of years everything has begun to revolve around Marcus Cole and the Praetorian Invasion angle is just the pinnacle of that. All the buildup has been to show how awesome Marcus Cole is.