Issue 20 info is up!
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2011-03-01 11:34 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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The Patron power pools have always been a problem for a lot of people. Or have you forgotten the complaints about sharks? Heroes at least got pools that matched most of their powersets, with a fairly generic "Forces" option for the ones that didn't get a perfect match. Even an Invul/SS tank always had the option of two powers from Body Mastery that are generic enough to suit anyone.|
Originally Posted by Fiery-Enforcer
Why hasn't this ever been a problem before with epic powersets? Before GR, villains were bound by the different patron power pools and heroes by the different elemental pools. Even to this day, what epic power pool goes thematically with an Invuln/SS Tank?
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| It has been known for a while that incarnates get their power from the Well and now that you're becoming an incarnate, you're complaining that you're getting your powers from the Well. It doesn't make much sense to me. The only point I can agree with is about the Lore slot, but even then you're not going to make everyone happy unless they're fully customizable. |
Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World
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Given all that you've said though, how do you justify enhancing your powers at all? If you're a natural hero you get to slot SO's that have names like "Military Speed", to say nothing of the names of some of the Invention Origin Enhacements. Do you refuse to slot something called "Mako's Bite" because you never trained with Mako? Or Scirocco's Dervish? Given your complaint - and I don't completely disagree with it - you would be hamstrung already in this game.
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Originally Posted by Eva Destruction
The Patron power pools have always been a problem for a lot of people. Or have you forgotten the complaints about sharks? Heroes at least got pools that matched most of their powersets, with a fairly generic "Forces" option for the ones that didn't get a perfect match. Even an Invul/SS tank always had the option of two powers from Body Mastery that are generic enough to suit anyone.
I'm not getting MY powers from the Well, I'm getting the powers the Well chooses to grant me, and that's the difference. The Alpha slot was the Well augmenting my powers, or me augmenting them on my own and using the Well as a means to do so, and to an extent Interface is too. The others have nothing to do with my powers at all, they're the Well's powers, and Lore is just the most blatant expression of that. |
"Be a beacon?"
Blue Mourning: lvl. 50 Katana/DA
Bree the Barricade: lvl 50 Stone/Axe
Last Chance for Eden: lvl 50 Fire/Kin
Myra the Grey: lvl 50 Bots/Traps
1 Minute to Midnight lvl 50 Spines/DA
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And if you're a tech origin hero you get to have three hearts. Those are just names you have to ignore. If I slot a Mako's Bite in Storm Kick, am I biting people with my feet? Slotting Mako's Bite doesn't turn my Storm Kick into a bite, it makes it a better Storm Kick. And I can slot Mako's Bite without going through an arc that tells me how I trained with Mako.|
Originally Posted by Blue_Mourning
Given all that you've said though, how do you justify enhancing your powers at all? If you're a natural hero you get to slot SO's that have names like "Military Speed", to say nothing of the names of some of the Invention Origin Enhacements. Do you refuse to slot something called "Mako's Bite" because you never trained with Mako? Or Scirocco's Dervish? Given your complaint - and I don't completely disagree with it - you would be hamstrung already in this game.
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It's pretty hard to ignore a pet following you around, or the ability to suddenly shoot fire. And I don't want to ignore it anyway. I want something I don't have to ignore. I don't ignore the reveal that the first Rikti War was a Nemesis plot, even though I don't like it. I don't ignore the time-**** that is the ITF. I don't have to actively ignore them, I can just choose to do them or not, because they are in no way tied to game mechanics and participating or not participating doesn't change anything about me, and their very existence doesn't alter the fundamental nature of the way the game world works. I don't become a Nemesis plot by going through the RWZ storyline and I don't become a Roman by doing the ITF. The RWZ being retconned into a Nemesis Plot doesn't suddenly make everything else a Nemesis plot, and one megalomaniac going back in time doesn't suddenly make everything else a result of one megalomaniac's meddling with the timeline.
Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World
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No, but it does mean that you're willing to ignore that stuff for your own, playable reasons. You can ignore that you become a member of Vanguard to get the Vanguard Merits? Do you ignore that the Vanguard HVAS is a Vanguard HVAS instead of a robot you create? There's a certain point at which the complaints become ridiculous in a meta-game way. I understand not liking the Lore Pets, but when you look at what they actually are, it makes sense. Yes, it's making your avatar more powerful, but you're pulling a memory out of the well - whatever that means.|
Originally Posted by Eva Destruction
And if you're a tech origin hero you get to have three hearts. Those are just names you have to ignore. If I slot a Mako's Bite in Storm Kick, am I biting people with my feet? Slotting Mako's Bite doesn't turn my Storm Kick into a bite, it makes it a better Storm Kick. And I can slot Mako's Bite without going through an arc that tells me how I trained with Mako.
It's pretty hard to ignore a pet following you around, or the ability to suddenly shoot fire. And I don't want to ignore it anyway. I want something I don't have to ignore. I don't ignore the reveal that the first Rikti War was a Nemesis plot, even though I don't like it. I don't ignore the time-**** that is the ITF. I don't have to actively ignore them, I can just choose to do them or not, because they are in no way tied to game mechanics and participating or not participating doesn't change anything about me, and their very existence doesn't alter the fundamental nature of the way the game world works. I don't become a Nemesis plot by going through the RWZ storyline and I don't become a Roman by doing the ITF. The RWZ being retconned into a Nemesis Plot doesn't suddenly make everything else a Nemesis plot, and one megalomaniac going back in time doesn't suddenly make everything else a result of one megalomaniac's meddling with the timeline. |
These things aren't meant to supercede your character. They explicitly don't rewrite anything, and even more than that, they don't rewrite anything in a less intensive way than they already have with something as key to your character's development for enhancements - and by the way - they do make you go through an arc to buy SO enhacements over lvl 30 blueside (save for in the RWZ, and Cim).
We are not the storytellers of this game. We are the players. The story tellers are the developers, and we're playing in their sandbox. You can choose to ignore stuff, but once you do so once you can't come back and complain later that "I can't ignore that!" You've already ignored stuff that affects your character in a much more intricate and entrenched way than simply gaining more clickies.
"Be a beacon?"
Blue Mourning: lvl. 50 Katana/DA
Bree the Barricade: lvl 50 Stone/Axe
Last Chance for Eden: lvl 50 Fire/Kin
Myra the Grey: lvl 50 Bots/Traps
1 Minute to Midnight lvl 50 Spines/DA
I know I'm shooting myself in the foot here because despite REALLY hating the lore pets.
I do have a way of explaining them without resorting to the well.
Holographic projections.
There, I said it, my main (but not my namesake) invuln/SS tanker (who is a genetically created 'daughter' of my namesake) isn't going to 'tap into the well and pull out a memory'.
She is going to be gifted a holographic projection belt from her Mad Scientist father.
Now oddly she believes herself to be an Incarnate but not in the new way of things.
She believes in the old style of Incarnating, in that she has inhereted her power through the Greek Pantheon.
So she'll have the wisdom of Solomon (Interface slot, knowing when and where to strike the enemy to deliver the best blow), the strength of Hercules (the Alpha slot, Musculture +damage), the stamina of Atlas (the destiny Barrier slot), the power of Zeus (Judgement slot, coloured Golden as a variant of Zeus's lightning that Statesman has) and...well we need the other slots yet before I can infringe on copyright laws completely.
Joking aside that is her version of the Incarnate story, her powers come from the Greek Pantheon and not the Well itself.
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The Vanguard HVAS is a temp power that I earned from Vanguard by helping Vanguard. I can choose to get one, or not, just like I can choose to get a Shivan or a Warwolf or Von Grun's bees. They are rewards given out for performing specific tasks, and make sense given those tasks. They are all also temporary powers. They are not the PPPs. They are not Incarnate powers.|
Originally Posted by Blue_Mourning
No, but it does mean that you're willing to ignore that stuff for your own, playable reasons. You can ignore that you become a member of Vanguard to get the Vanguard Merits? Do you ignore that the Vanguard HVAS is a Vanguard HVAS instead of a robot you create? There's a certain point at which the complaints become ridiculous in a meta-game way.
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Joining Vanguard or the Midnight Club is also optional. Not doing it doesn't prevent character advancement, it just locks you out of certain content or rewards, and the only rewards that have an actual permanent impact on your gameplay (the Incarnate components) can be earned in other ways. They're not the Arachnos patrons: if you want an armor for your Corruptor you must work for us. They are not the Well: if you want to advance beyond 50 you must do so through me.
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| These things aren't meant to supercede your character. They explicitly don't rewrite anything, and even more than that, they don't rewrite anything in a less intensive way than they already have with something as key to your character's development for enhancements - and by the way - they do make you go through an arc to buy SO enhacements over lvl 30 blueside (save for in the RWZ, and Cim). |
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| We are not the storytellers of this game. We are the players. The story tellers are the developers, and we're playing in their sandbox. You can choose to ignore stuff, but once you do so once you can't come back and complain later that "I can't ignore that!" You've already ignored stuff that affects your character in a much more intricate and entrenched way than simply gaining more clickies. |
Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World
Alpha's 'Incarnatehood' is very, very simple.
Alpha slot - Upgraded weapons systems for the team and overall tweaks
Interface, Destiny - More new sytems (Dispari's list seems to have vanished)
Judgement - Reason, the Dark-Side of the Moon Railcannon platform. Hopefully I can have a targetted AoE that will manage to pass off...
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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Yeah, and how many players these days do you honestly think still play those horrible fillers? I'd love to see the datamining for that, because I'd happily wager a few bob at very, very few people every playing them anymore. Why? Because Only blueside has gated Stores like that. And why on earth would you do a horrible meta-game mission that is too close to 'Go fetch me ten manky wolf pelts' when you can go to RWZ or Cimerora instead?
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Originally Posted by Blue_Mourning
- and by the way - they do make you go through an arc to buy SO enhacements over lvl 30 blueside (save for in the RWZ, and Cim).
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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Not everyone can agree on what good writing is. For instance, I've seen you many times say that the writing has really taken a hit in this game, yet the new Posi makes a whole lot more sense than the old posi, the FSBA arc is pretty cool, Ray Cooling's arc is a great vehicle to have form equal function, I enjoyed Apex and Tin Mage and thought that the quality of the writing on these far far surpasses a lot of the writing when you look at the older content - especially the content of the original Task Forces. They do a much better job explaining what is going on to the whole team instead of just the team leader. Yet this is the self same content that you seem to hate. Seriously, you can tell me with a straight face that the original Posi was better written than the current one? We just had Sister P as the WST which was juxtaposed to the LGTF. Which of those was better written? And better than that - the Apex and the Tin Mage are far more transparent in terms of story telling than even the LGTF is, mostly because some of the new Tech they're using.|
Originally Posted by Eva Destruction
The Vanguard HVAS is a temp power that I earned from Vanguard by helping Vanguard. I can choose to get one, or not, just like I can choose to get a Shivan or a Warwolf or Von Grun's bees. They are rewards given out for performing specific tasks, and make sense given those tasks. They are all also temporary powers. They are not the PPPs. They are not Incarnate powers.
Joining Vanguard or the Midnight Club is also optional. Not doing it doesn't prevent character advancement, it just locks you out of certain content or rewards, and the only rewards that have an actual permanent impact on your gameplay (the Incarnate components) can be earned in other ways. They're not the Arachnos patrons: if you want an armor for your Corruptor you must work for us. They are not the Well: if you want to advance beyond 50 you must do so through me. They make you go through a mission because otherwise the contact won't sell to you, not because you can't actually buy or use the enhancements until you do the mission. There is a fundamental difference. The mission just represents a change in the way you interact with an aspect of the game world, just like joining Vanguard or the Midnight Club does. Just like every single mission in the entire game, right down to "Defeat Archon Bellagio and Guards." That's kind of the point of having missions. Yeah, that's what I'm saying. I don't want to ignore it. I want something I don't have to ignore. I want better writing. Full stop. Until I get better writing, and there's no indication that I ever will since everybody else seems fine with hackneyed explanations for shiny new mechanics as long as the mechanics are shiny enough, I want to be able to easily ignore, handwave, and pretend the stuff I don't like doesn't exist. |
I don't like all of it - the origin of power stuff isn't nonsense and tying it into the well is necessarily vague - but here's the thing: all that stuff is necessarily vague because they're trying not to impinge too much on a person's character concept - something that you're saying they're doing anyway! There are a lot of things you give up to play a cooperative game in terms of personal storytelling.
The new content does a lot of stuff very well, not the least of which is a greater attention to concise and targeted storytelling instead of simply throwing a lot of filler at us. The old stuff felt more like filler. The newer stuff - starting with the arcs we find redside - feel far less like filler and far more like we're accomplishing something each mission.
I don't agree with making the Lore pets Praetorian, but only because I think that needlessly limits our own effect on our incarnate power. It's not "inherently bad writing" because you don't like it. We even disagree on whether or not Marcus Cole is a Mary Sue. I don't think he's a particularly interesting villain but that has more to do with the fact that they've taken away some of the moral gray areas at the high levels. But if we can't even agree on why we don't like someone as a villain, how can the devs ever hope to satisfy everyone with anything other than vague amorphous storytelling, which won't please anyone.
"Be a beacon?"
Blue Mourning: lvl. 50 Katana/DA
Bree the Barricade: lvl 50 Stone/Axe
Last Chance for Eden: lvl 50 Fire/Kin
Myra the Grey: lvl 50 Bots/Traps
1 Minute to Midnight lvl 50 Spines/DA
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But for a long long long long time that was the only way you could get SO's at that level. Actually, scratch that, because I signed up in I9 and didn't have someone who could get into the RWZ until 3 or 4 weeks after issue 10 hit, so I might be totally wrong on that. But I'm guessing that there wasn't a vendor that wasn't mission locked. I could be totally wrong.
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Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
Yeah, and how many players these days do you honestly think still play those horrible fillers? I'd love to see the datamining for that, because I'd happily wager a few bob at very, very few people every playing them anymore. Why? Because Only blueside has gated Stores like that. And why on earth would you do a horrible meta-game mission that is too close to 'Go fetch me ten manky wolf pelts' when you can go to RWZ or Cimerora instead?
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"Be a beacon?"
Blue Mourning: lvl. 50 Katana/DA
Bree the Barricade: lvl 50 Stone/Axe
Last Chance for Eden: lvl 50 Fire/Kin
Myra the Grey: lvl 50 Bots/Traps
1 Minute to Midnight lvl 50 Spines/DA
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I was going to snip this down, but it's actually worth quoting it all, really.|
Originally Posted by Blue_Mourning
Not everyone can agree on what good writing is. For instance, I've seen you many times say that the writing has really taken a hit in this game, yet the new Posi makes a whole lot more sense than the old posi, the FSBA arc is pretty cool, Ray Cooling's arc is a great vehicle to have form equal function, I enjoyed Apex and Tin Mage and thought that the quality of the writing on these far far surpasses a lot of the writing when you look at the older content - especially the content of the original Task Forces. They do a much better job explaining what is going on to the whole team instead of just the team leader. Yet this is the self same content that you seem to hate. Seriously, you can tell me with a straight face that the original Posi was better written than the current one? We just had Sister P as the WST which was juxtaposed to the LGTF. Which of those was better written? And better than that - the Apex and the Tin Mage are far more transparent in terms of story telling than even the LGTF is, mostly because some of the new Tech they're using.
I don't like all of it - the origin of power stuff isn't nonsense and tying it into the well is necessarily vague - but here's the thing: all that stuff is necessarily vague because they're trying not to impinge too much on a person's character concept - something that you're saying they're doing anyway! There are a lot of things you give up to play a cooperative game in terms of personal storytelling. The new content does a lot of stuff very well, not the least of which is a greater attention to concise and targeted storytelling instead of simply throwing a lot of filler at us. The old stuff felt more like filler. The newer stuff - starting with the arcs we find redside - feel far less like filler and far more like we're accomplishing something each mission. I don't agree with making the Lore pets Praetorian, but only because I think that needlessly limits our own effect on our incarnate power. It's not "inherently bad writing" because you don't like it. We even disagree on whether or not Marcus Cole is a Mary Sue. I don't think he's a particularly interesting villain but that has more to do with the fact that they've taken away some of the moral gray areas at the high levels. But if we can't even agree on why we don't like someone as a villain, how can the devs ever hope to satisfy everyone with anything other than vague amorphous storytelling, which won't please anyone. |
Sure, some might not like some of the new story stuff (And yes, the VEAT arcs and the Well Marketting Tie-in both suck) But you cannot argue that it's better delivered than the old junk. Most of which didn't actually have a story, more like strung together one off missions that had little to no point.
I still dislike the direction that their veering in, though. Praetoria from 1-20 is so much fun it's unbelievable and, a few dodgy mechanics aside (ambushes...) it's far and away the best content in the game to date. But the high level stuff does remove all that lovely grey morality and 'lesser of two evils' stuff, replacing it with dirt dull boring moustache twirling.
Man...I'd kill to work in Lore at Paragon studios...*sigh*
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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True. Before then, you had to wait until 35 and do the Cimerora arc. |
Originally Posted by Blue_Mourning
But for a long long long long time that was the only way you could get SO's at that level. Actually, scratch that, because I signed up in I9 and didn't have someone who could get into the RWZ until 3 or 4 weeks after issue 10 hit, so I might be totally wrong on that. But I'm guessing that there wasn't a vendor that wasn't mission locked. I could be totally wrong.
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But the fact that the vendors exist there and the Red side ones are totally non-locked speaks volumes.
And, more importantly, I'm reffering more to the way things are now. With those options there, do people ever use the old 'needs unlocking' stores? I'd be interested to know.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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The other reason to use the naturally unlocked co-op vendors (and the Oroborous one purely for a selling standpoint) compared to the locked heroside ones is that the RWZ, Cimmerorea and Oroborus all pay the full whack for any kind of enhancement, removing the need to run around to all the various different vendors to get the best price when selling your Enhancements.
Damn I do NOT miss that old chesnut.
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Sure; some of them are useful for hunt missions (like the costume slot & aura missions at 30); and once they are unlocked by that, might as well use 'em. Also, you can sell to them without unlocking them, and last I checked you still got more inf for selling enhancements to a matching store.
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Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
And, more importantly, I'm reffering more to the way things are now. With those options there, do people ever use the old 'needs unlocking' stores? I'd be interested to know.
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Arc #40529 : The Furies of the Earth
I'm not going to go into the roleplay aspects as others have covered that and I'll raise my hand as someone who routinely ignores parts of the game such as the names on Enhancements and the ridiculous Dr Brainstorm explanations for powerset proliferation.
No, for me, the problem is wider than just that. It's that a major strength of this game is customisation, to be able to create the hero or villain you want. And over the years, it's been a case of one step forward, two steps back.
Villains were locked into their Patrons, having to endure the Patron symbol scrawled all over their avatar if they wanted an epic shield. Some powersets were so hidiously coloured, it was hard to pass them off as anything else. If you were a Radiation Emission user, you got to be bright green all the time (good luck explaining that one!). If you were a street brawler, you had to accept using flashy kicks rather than a straight punch to the face. It was just how things were.
And then things changed. We were able to colour our powersets and let our imaginations run riot. I, who had never touched Rad due to the horrible colour, rolled three Rad characters within the space of a week now it could be magic, or fire or nanites or whatever. Villains could respec out of their Patrons or even better, take an epic powerset that had no horrible symbols or lore requirements to them. And that street brawler guy? Now he could be a proper street fighter, swapping all of those flashy martial arts moves for practical punches to the head. Awesome! What a way to fire peoples' imaginations and unlock previously unattractive sets to roleplayer and non-roleplayer alike! (Even if it did mean getting completely obscured when some PuG team-mate shoves a completely black Fire Shield buff on me. Grrr...!)
And now we come to the Incarnate content. And suddenly all of that freedom, all of that creativity gets stuffed back into the box and we get shoved down one very specific, very limiting storyline that dictates where our powers are coming from. I agree that the Lore slot is the worst culprit here, the others at least can be passed off as orbital cannons or new techniques but there's very little wriggle room for creativity and that's what I'm finding stifling. I don't mind running certain arcs to gain new shinys, I'll happily spend an hour blasting through the ITF for my Roman armour. But this is a long, ongoing story that I have no love for while other, potentially better stories go neglected (or get hideously retconned into the 'new lore' - Vincent Ross, I'm looking at you) and I doubt it's going to be over anytime soon. And that's what makes me sad.
Personally, if I ever get to meet the Well, I'm going to toss a whole load of sodium down it, just to make it pay for putting me through this.
@Dante EU - Union Roleplayer and Altisis Victim
The Militia: Union RP Supergroup - www.themilitia.org.uk
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Just quoting this to say I agree. I loved the shades of grey in Going Rogue but with the high level stuff, it doesn't matter if you want to serve your Emperor or not, you have to fight him whether you're a hero, a villain or a loyal subject. And believe me, my villains are getting real sick of serving the greater good. I'm looking forward to when I can serve a greater evil. Anyone got Darrin Wade's phone number?
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Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
I still dislike the direction that their veering in, though. Praetoria from 1-20 is so much fun it's unbelievable and, a few dodgy mechanics aside (ambushes...) it's far and away the best content in the game to date. But the high level stuff does remove all that lovely grey morality and 'lesser of two evils' stuff, replacing it with dirt dull boring moustache twirling.
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@Dante EU - Union Roleplayer and Altisis Victim
The Militia: Union RP Supergroup - www.themilitia.org.uk
Also Techbot sadly none of the Judgement power slots look like Orbital rail cannon strike.
Though I can quite easily imagine Alpha upgrading into having Star Wars Emperor style Finger lightning ala the Ion slot...or an inbuilt flamethrower ala the Pyronic slot.
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In terms of effect art, at least, I'd say the Void Judgment could pass for such pretty well. Doesn't really explain why the nuke-crouch or why it's targeted on you, though. Or maybe it does. "Oh crap, I pushed the button, INCOMING!" *ducks*. Maybe something like that?
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Originally Posted by Dr_Mechano
Also Techbot sadly none of the Judgement power slots look like Orbital rail cannon strike.
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It is better designed, yes, I will definitely agree with you on that.|
Originally Posted by Blue_Mourning
Not everyone can agree on what good writing is. For instance, I've seen you many times say that the writing has really taken a hit in this game, yet the new Posi makes a whole lot more sense than the old posi, the FSBA arc is pretty cool, Ray Cooling's arc is a great vehicle to have form equal function, I enjoyed Apex and Tin Mage and thought that the quality of the writing on these far far surpasses a lot of the writing when you look at the older content - especially the content of the original Task Forces. They do a much better job explaining what is going on to the whole team instead of just the team leader.
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The new Posi is pretty much the same thing as the old Posi though; the Vahz still want to use the dam to pollute the water supply, the CoT still want the dam to power their ritual, and the Clockwork want to blow it up because....well they actually have a reason now, even though it's a pretty stupid plan considering. It's the same basic story, just told in a much, much better way.
When you separate mission design philosophy from the actual content of the story itself though...Roy Cooling's arc lends itself to plot holes you could drive a truck through, and has Malta introducing themselves to newer heroes rather than snatching them in the middle of the night, brainwashing them and holding their families at gunpoint until they do what Malta says. The FSBA arcs and their villain counterparts are nothing but an excuse to use Doppelganger tech, which would have been cool if it was just Protean impersonating you but is seriously overused here, and they had to go and bring things like clones and extra-dimensional counterparts into it. Other people have already gone into the "I'm a robot and I can't be cloned" arguments, not to mention that anyone who has every read a comic book knows that cloning rarely ends well.
Apex is fun to play, and Tin Mage is fun to play, and the ITF is fun to play, but they're not all that well written. On the other hand, there's Justin Augustine, which tells you a lot about Rularuu and the Shadow Shard, fascinating stuff, but is the worst-designed Task Force ever. You can have both. The design philosophy has moved away from eight-hour slogfests and filler and time sinks and towards neat surprises and more condensed arcs, but the reason for doing these things has moved from "unravel a shadowy organization dedicated to controlling every super on the planet" or "discover how an ancient order of magicians sold their souls for power" to "these guys have an evil plan, go stop it."
Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World
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Originally Posted by Dr_Mechano
Also Techbot sadly none of the Judgement power slots look like Orbital rail cannon strike.
Though I can quite easily imagine Alpha upgrading into having Star Wars Emperor style Finger lightning ala the Ion slot...or an inbuilt flamethrower ala the Pyronic slot. |
Fffffffffffffuuu-
KHHAAAAAAAAAAAANNNNNNNNN!!!!!
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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Oh don't be such a drama queen 
Atleast you can still use it as your ingame explanation for Warburg nukes and you get a new AoE which hits 40 targets (mmmm huge AoE lightning...) at the Very Rare stage.
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This. A thousand times this.|
Originally Posted by Dante
And now we come to the Incarnate content. And suddenly all of that freedom, all of that creativity gets stuffed back into the box and we get shoved down one very specific, very limiting storyline that dictates where our powers are coming from. I agree that the Lore slot is the worst culprit here, the others at least can be passed off as orbital cannons or new techniques but there's very little wriggle room for creativity and that's what I'm finding stifling. I don't mind running certain arcs to gain new shinys, I'll happily spend an hour blasting through the ITF for my Roman armour. But this is a long, ongoing story that I have no love for while other, potentially better stories go neglected (or get hideously retconned into the 'new lore' - Vincent Ross, I'm looking at you) and I doubt it's going to be over anytime soon. And that's what makes me sad.
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| Personally, if I ever get to meet the Well, I'm going to toss a whole load of sodium down it, just to make it pay for putting me through this. |
Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World
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Form equals function. You can't divorce design from the writing because the writing is more than just writing stuff down on a page, just like reading is more than just reading something off of one (you acutally have to understand and engage with the content, something I've been trying to get my students to learn). For instance - I still have absolutely no idea why you think Apex is badly written. It tells a concise story and it is well presented and makes sense. What's wrong with it? Seriously? Tin Mage is similar - okay a lot of people don't like Malta's presence, but when I ask people what they don't like about Tin Mage they're like "I don't like Malta being there". Malta is only there for one small part of one mission. There are 2 other full missions in the TF. Why are they badly written?|
Originally Posted by Eva Destruction
It is better designed, yes, I will definitely agree with you on that.
The new Posi is pretty much the same thing as the old Posi though; the Vahz still want to use the dam to pollute the water supply, the CoT still want the dam to power their ritual, and the Clockwork want to blow it up because....well they actually have a reason now, even though it's a pretty stupid plan considering. It's the same basic story, just told in a much, much better way. When you separate mission design philosophy from the actual content of the story itself though...Roy Cooling's arc lends itself to plot holes you could drive a truck through, and has Malta introducing themselves to newer heroes rather than snatching them in the middle of the night, brainwashing them and holding their families at gunpoint until they do what Malta says. The FSBA arcs and their villain counterparts are nothing but an excuse to use Doppelganger tech, which would have been cool if it was just Protean impersonating you but is seriously overused here, and they had to go and bring things like clones and extra-dimensional counterparts into it. Other people have already gone into the "I'm a robot and I can't be cloned" arguments, not to mention that anyone who has every read a comic book knows that cloning rarely ends well. Apex is fun to play, and Tin Mage is fun to play, and the ITF is fun to play, but they're not all that well written. On the other hand, there's Justin Augustine, which tells you a lot about Rularuu and the Shadow Shard, fascinating stuff, but is the worst-designed Task Force ever. You can have both. The design philosophy has moved away from eight-hour slogfests and filler and time sinks and towards neat surprises and more condensed arcs, but the reason for doing these things has moved from "unravel a shadowy organization dedicated to controlling every super on the planet" or "discover how an ancient order of magicians sold their souls for power" to "these guys have an evil plan, go stop it." |
Not to mention there's nothing inherently wrong with "These guys have an evil plan, go stop it" as long as that evil plan makes sense to want to stop and isn't "giant carebears attack Paragon City!!! Again!!!!" I've never had a problem with any part of the story of ITF. As to the whole robot issue: That's precisely the kind of thing that we are going to have to accept that we're not the storyteller. If you're not a being that can be cloned then don't do the frickin' arc. But by saying that that's not a valid storyline means that you're hamstringing the devs in their ability to put forth a storyline about cloning the main character - an arc by the way that puts your character squarely in the center of the action in a way that simply hadn't been done before. In other arcs the heroes are incidental to the storyline. Here they're completely entrenched within it.
"Be a beacon?"
Blue Mourning: lvl. 50 Katana/DA
Bree the Barricade: lvl 50 Stone/Axe
Last Chance for Eden: lvl 50 Fire/Kin
Myra the Grey: lvl 50 Bots/Traps
1 Minute to Midnight lvl 50 Spines/DA
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Yeah, I'll see which ones of the Judgement slots work best, I suppose...|
Originally Posted by Dr_Mechano
Oh don't be such a drama queen
Atleast you can still use it as your ingame explanation for Warburg nukes and you get a new AoE which hits 40 targets (mmmm huge AoE lightning...) at the Very Rare stage. |
Anyone made any vids of them in action, yet?
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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It has been known for a while that incarnates get their power from the Well and now that you're becoming an incarnate, you're complaining that you're getting your powers from the Well. It doesn't make much sense to me. The only point I can agree with is about the Lore slot, but even then you're not going to make everyone happy unless they're fully customizable.
[U][URL="http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=251594"][/URL][/U]