Issue 20 info is up!
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2011-03-01 11:34 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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To be fair, only his villains are over the top. Imperious is kind of a push over too, just as much as Statesman is. It's Reichsman (who they explain why he's gotten so powerful) and Emperor Cole/Tyrant (who they explain why he's gotten so powerful) who are the over powered ones. Both of them have either been referenced in the game, or have been in the game before. Not to mention that they're not making States the uber powerful hero on par with players - they're explicitly keeping him out of the limelight.
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Originally Posted by Dr_Mechano
I posted this elsewhere so I'll repeat it here.
Statesman is the Superman of the world, yes but he wasn't really the be all and end all, not everything focused around him and during Troy's run on the comics he was actually very well written (every other handling of him seemed like the REALLY hated Superman and took out frustrations on our resident Superman expy). Statesman is never really in the limelight that often and when he's presented ingame he's actually a lot more of a pushover than even some of his colleges on the Freedom Phalanx (he's Invuln/SS, yes he has a crashless unstoppable but so does Back Alley Brawler...Statesman just has that big AoE as well). He cropped up where it made sense for someone like Superman to make a stand, against very powerful villains who brutally beat his Granddaughter (you'd be pissed too). Yes ye olde Statesman did smash a Rikti Mothership but that's not ingame and he isn't as stupidly overpowered ingame as he is in backstory, if anything with the introduction of IOs the players have far surpassed him before even taking the first step onto the Incarnate ladder However with the introduction of Cimmerorea all that begun to change. First we are introduced to his ancient times version, then to his Nazi version to the now uber-Incarnate level Praetorian version. He crops up everywhere and he's always the best of the best, miles better than any player. Over the last couple of years everything has begun to revolve around Marcus Cole and the Praetorian Invasion angle is just the pinnacle of that. All the buildup has been to show how awesome Marcus Cole is. |
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This. In my view, Tyrant lacks the most important element of a Mary Sue - the story is not *about* him. He's just the face on the latest piniata we're supposed to take swings at for shinies. |
Originally Posted by Blue_Mourning
To be fair, that's only because he's the villain of the moment. When the Rikti were invading for an issue all the new systems and rewards were about them, it just wasn't "endgame" content. This is just a longer storyline than we're used to.
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The writing on the Incarnate storyline has 99 problems but a Mary Sure ain't one.
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And the real irony is that they weren't being hyped until AFTER Jack Emmert was gone. Or IS he?
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Originally Posted by Dr_Mechano
First we are introduced to his ancient times version, then to his Nazi version to the now uber-Incarnate level Praetorian version. He crops up everywhere and he's always the best of the best, miles better than any player.
Over the last couple of years everything has begun to revolve around Marcus Cole and the Praetorian Invasion angle is just the pinnacle of that. All the buildup has been to show how awesome Marcus Cole is. |
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
City of Heroes is a game about freedom of expression and variety of experiences far more so than it is about representing any one theme, topic or genre.
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If the story has to be about the Mary Sue, to be a Mary Sue, I fail to see how anyone can think Statesman is a Mary Sue.|
Originally Posted by Silver Gale
This. In my view, Tyrant lacks the most important element of a Mary Sue - the story is not *about* him. He's just the face on the latest piniata we're supposed to take swings at for shinies.
The writing on the Incarnate storyline has 99 problems but a Mary Sure ain't one. |
I never got the impression (in game wise) that the story was about him.
Now mind you, when I say that, untill the Incarnate content, I never thought players were considered (story arc wise) as tough/strong as Statesman, or many of the AVs for that matter.
Players always seemed to be under the Freedom Phalanx/Vanguard, Recluse/Recluse Lts/The Lts Sidekicks in power.
But I never thought the stories were about them.
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If anything in the Incarnate storyline is a Mary Sue its the all powerful Well itself... and its being written as having gone so bat guano insane that its giving Praetorian Cole so much incarnate power that he can infuse his minions with it for the lols.
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Originally Posted by Silver Gale
This. In my view, Tyrant lacks the most important element of a Mary Sue - the story is not *about* him. He's just the face on the latest piniata we're supposed to take swings at for shinies.
The writing on the Incarnate storyline has 99 problems but a Mary Sure ain't one. |
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When the Rikti invaded, they were the big bads for one issue.|
Originally Posted by Blue_Mourning
To be fair, that's only because he's the villain of the moment. When the Rikti were invading for an issue all the new systems and rewards were about them, it just wasn't "endgame" content. This is just a longer storyline than we're used to.
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When the Rikti invaded, we weren't told to just drop everything else, even though their invasion was more visible than Tyrant's, with zone events that encouraged everyone to participate.
We have been warned of the possibility of another Rikti invasion since release. It wasn't a one-off storyline suddenly coming to the forefront.
And most importantly, the fundamental core of our characters and how they relate to the game world did not change in any way due to the Rikti invasion. If you took a Natural origin Martial Arts/Super Reflexes Scrapper through the RWZ arcs, they came out of it still a Natural origin MA/SR Scrapper. You didn't Riktify yourself to beat them, you just learned to dodge that Rikti sword and kick them in the face harder. The storyline didn't change they fundamental nature of what they were or what they did, they just got better at it. This storyline is changing the fundamental nature of what you do. In order to beat Tyrant, you have to become more like Tyrant.
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Originally Posted by BrandX
Ooooh. So it's not really Statesman who's the Mary Sue, it's Marcus Cole.
Or does everyone else just like to think of them as the same person? |
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Ialways thought the original powers were linked to the Opening of the Well, so them being linked to that, doesn't seem new at all. If they hadn't found the well, there wouldn't be any super genius tech creators, or mutants, spirits would still be locked away, aliens would skip over our planet, except for the occaissional Area 51 sighting. |
Linking super genius tech creators or natural origin "I'm just that good" Batman types to the well only serves to diminish them. You're not smart enough, you're not determined enough, you can never work hard enough to be super on your own. It all has to come from an outside source.
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And, would you have felt better about it, if they had picked someone else, or created some new to be all powerful? Same thing, except it isn't Marcus Cole? They need to make the badguy for Incarnates super powerful, that would be the only reason to justify having 40+ heroes/villains teaming up to take one entity down. |
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| We do that for Hami, is Hami a Mary Sue, being so powerful that we need to team up to take it down, and even then it's not even considered permanent in in game canon as I recall. It's more like you're driving him back untill he returns (so you can't even defeat him fully). |
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I thought he found a way to steal the power of the Well, not that the Well gave it to him.
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Originally Posted by Titan_III
If anything in the Incarnate storyline is a Mary Sue its the all powerful Well itself... and its being written as having gone so bat guano insane that its giving Praetorian Cole so much incarnate power that he can infuse his minions with it for the lols.
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How has any of the current incarnate content, made your stories irrelevant?|
Originally Posted by Eva Destruction
No. Hami is just Hami. He isn't the be-all and end-all of super powers. He is the culmination of his own storyline, not an attempt to make all other stories irrelevant.
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The Well has been opened before. Supers have been around this hole time, but they were so rare, as to be myth. Opening the well made what seemed to be myth, a known reality.
Those who were super and around before Marcus and Stefan found the Well, had those powers because the Well (which just seems like a all encompassing deity above all other dieties...without using the word god, because it might offend people) had so chosen them.
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Yeah and that would be what I don't like. |
Originally Posted by BrandX
Those who were super and around before Marcus and Stefan found the Well, had those powers because the Well (which just seems like a all encompassing deity above all other dieties...without using the word god, because it might offend people) had so chosen them.
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This rather huge retcon going on that the Well is the be all and end all. That, for example, Giovanna Scaldi was "chosen by the well".
No she wasn't...she clearly freaking wasn't, she was just one of the rare people that had powers waaaay back when but now the Well has been introduced, everything is linked to that.
Its the linking of everything to the Well, the Circle of Thorns got their power by bargaining with the demons of the netherworld, not because of the Well decided that those Demons should give the Circle of Thorns power.
It is getting to a level where even though I'm unlike Venture or Eva in regards hating the newer stories...the Incarnate storyline is really starting to annoy me with its bigass Retcon that the Devs are doing.
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It should also be pointed out that it is extremely hard to justify the existence of a Super that existed before the start of this game anyway since you start at level 1. And I say this while I have 2 characters that were worshipped as Gods in the dark ages. The very fact that you start out not-very-powerful means that you're ignoring a bunch of in-game text anyway. I'm not trying to justify the Origin of Power storyline as good writing - because I don't particularly love it - but I don't think it's good for entirely different reasons than you seem to. The Origin of Power storyline feels clunky because it felt like they were trying to justify the Well affecting everyone equally regardless of origin, not that they were trying to overwrite your origin, but that they were trying to work on concert with all possible ones. Each origin also (if I recall) includes loopholes to be pretty much include most character concepts. I would argue that it doesn't do this well, but I think the intent is quite clear even if the execution doesn't quite make it.
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Originally Posted by BrandX
How has any of the current incarnate content, made your stories irrelevant?
The Well has been opened before. Supers have been around this hole time, but they were so rare, as to be myth. Opening the well made what seemed to be myth, a known reality. Those who were super and around before Marcus and Stefan found the Well, had those powers because the Well (which just seems like a all encompassing deity above all other dieties...without using the word god, because it might offend people) had so chosen them. |
"Be a beacon?"
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From an RP stand point, was any of this anything your character knew to begin with?|
Originally Posted by Dr_Mechano
Yeah and that would be what I don't like.
This rather huge retcon going on that the Well is the be all and end all. That, for example, Giovanna Scaldi was "chosen by the well". No she wasn't...she clearly freaking wasn't, she was just one of the rare people that had powers waaaay back when but now the Well has been introduced, everything is linked to that. Its the linking of everything to the Well, the Circle of Thorns got their power by bargaining with the demons of the netherworld, not because of the Well decided that those Demons should give the Circle of Thorns power. It is getting to a level where even though I'm unlike Venture or Eva in regards hating the newer stories...the Incarnate storyline is really starting to annoy me with its bigass Retcon that the Devs are doing. |
Some character that was so powerful, they knew how everything was before, this was added in?
Eh, I'm not saying this is the way I would have gone. But then again, I would of tried to keep a more "Marvel/DC" style superhero theme to the game, rather than have so few spandexers, that it seems they're the minority.
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You have a point. For all intents, starting at level 1, would make one think, if you were this big ancient powerful OMG, whatever, before...you somehow got terribly weak by the time you entered Paragon/RI/Praetoria.
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Originally Posted by Blue_Mourning
It should also be pointed out that it is extremely hard to justify the existence of a Super that existed before the start of this game anyway since you start at level 1. And I say this while I have 2 characters that were worshipped as Gods in the dark ages. The very fact that you start out not-very-powerful means that you're ignoring a bunch of in-game text anyway. I'm not trying to justify the Origin of Power storyline as good writing - because I don't particularly love it - but I don't think it's good for entirely different reasons than you seem to. The Origin of Power storyline feels clunky because it felt like they were trying to justify the Well affecting everyone equally regardless of origin, not that they were trying to overwrite your origin, but that they were trying to work on concert with all possible ones. Each origin also (if I recall) includes loopholes to be pretty much include most character concepts. I would argue that it doesn't do this well, but I think the intent is quite clear even if the execution doesn't quite make it.
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No I didn't. See, I thought I was badass because I'd learned how to dodge that Rikti sword before it took my head off. I thought I was powerful because I had learned how to channel the forces of nature to obey my whim. I thought I was smart because I built a better suit of power armor. But nope, I was wrong. I wasn't badass or powerful or smart after all. The Well just deigned to share some of its all-prevading awesomeness with me.
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Originally Posted by BrandX
From an RP stand point, was any of this anything your character knew to begin with?
Some character that was so powerful, they knew how everything was before, this was added in? |
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The Circle of Thorns, yeah, it's kind of discussed at length ingame through various Story Arcs both Heroside and Villainside. Their backstory is pretty damn well known by any high level super and has exactly zip to do with the well.
Though, to be fair, they haven't linked the Circle of Thorns to the Well yet. A Well is one entity, one way of gaining super powers. This is where we vary from Statesman, Honoree et al. We were empowered by means outside the Well before we begun to tap into its power and thats my take on it.
Though to be fair most characters can point blank ignore the Well storyline. Magic users can simply learn more powerful spells, Tech users can simply have come up with new inventions, Mutant characters could have developed new Mutations, Science orgin characters could be seeing new powers manifest from that experiment gone awry. The only one that suffers is the Natural Origin and even then only a Natural Human. Even then Natural Humans can simply be augmenting themselves with a few choice bits of tech ala Batman (the dude does have powered armour).
From an RP standpoint the Well storyline can be just as ignored as the Origin of Powers or the Dr Brainstorm stuff (which...I think 90% of RPers actually do).
Unfortunately the Devs seem to really want to go out of their way to shove it down our throats and making it as hard as possible to simply shove aside.
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Okay, see I think you're taking this to the illogical extreme. There's nothing in that says your character isn't any of those things. The only thing that's the case is that the well allows these things to be capable of happening. There are many paths to be able to "dodge a rikti sword" and your character provides the flavor text for it. But the very fact that it is possible in that world to be able to build a dimensional grounding ray is provided by the well, not the actual path to get there, nor the end goal once you do have it.
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Originally Posted by Eva Destruction
No I didn't. See, I thought I was badass because I'd learned how to dodge that Rikti sword before it took my head off. I thought I was powerful because I had learned how to channel the forces of nature to obey my whim. I thought I was smart because I built a better suit of power armor. But nope, I was wrong. I wasn't badass or powerful or smart after all. The Well just deigned to share some of its all-prevading awesomeness with me.
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You are though!|
Originally Posted by Eva Destruction
No I didn't. See, I thought I was badass because I'd learned how to dodge that Rikti sword before it took my head off. I thought I was powerful because I had learned how to channel the forces of nature to obey my whim. I thought I was smart because I built a better suit of power armor. But nope, I was wrong. I wasn't badass or powerful or smart after all. The Well just deigned to share some of its all-prevading awesomeness with me.
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The well didn't teach you how to do any of that. The well gave you the potential to do all that.
Mind you, that's if you go by the Well and not, as Mechano said, ignore the game canon, you as an RPer (or just a concept builder if not an RPer) choose.
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While I can understand the reasoning behind the issues about the Incarnate/Well story-line, getting upset because it goes against your character concept is sort-of pointless.
The Well/Incarnate Arcs don't control your character's story; you, the player, control the story. You aren't forced to write your character as an Incarnate or Well Lacky if you don't want to.
You don't always need to go completely with in-game events when telling your story. Way back when, long before Power Customization, I'd make characters who's powers were somewhat or even totally different than the 'in-game canonical' Powersets (Dark Melee being dark-matter instead of Netherworld energy, Spines being Ice crystals) and before AE I'd run Story Arcs where the character would actually be doing things other than the mission objective but would still accomplish the same goal (Talking the hostage takers into releasing the captives, sabotaging Council gear instead of just hacking computers).
The Incarnate stuff works exactly the same way, even if some of it is a little harder to get around (Lore Pets, I'm lookin' at you). I'm not saying that in-game canon should be blown completely out of the water and have your character be Statesman's dad or something, but at the end of the day, what you write in that little bio box, up here on the forums, or RP in-game is your decision.
Edit - Nuts. I get up here on my little soapbox only to get ninja-posted by Dr Mechano. My hat is off to you sir! 
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Agreed. But that's still basically saying what Mechano said...ignore what you want. That's what all RPers do anyways.
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Originally Posted by El__D
While I can understand the reasoning behind the issues about the Incarnate/Well story-line, getting upset because it goes against your character concept is sort-of pointless.
The Well/Incarnate Arcs don't control your character's story; you, the player, control the story. You aren't forced to write your character as an Incarnate or Well Lacky if you don't want to. You don't always need to go completely with in-game events when telling your story. Way back when, long before Power Customization, I'd make characters who's powers were somewhat or even totally different than the 'in-game canonical' Powersets (Dark Melee being dark-matter instead of Netherworld energy, Spines being Ice crystals) and before AE I'd run Story Arcs where the character would actually be doing things other than the mission objective but would still accomplish the same goal (Talking the hostage takers into releasing the captives, sabotaging Council gear instead of just hacking computers). The Incarnate stuff works exactly the same way, even if some of it is a little harder to get around (Lore Pets, I'm lookin' at you). I'm not saying that in-game canon should be blown completely out of the water and have your character be Statesman's dad or something, but at the end of the day, what you write in that little bio box, up here on the forums, or RP in-game is your decision. |
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That is the problem. The Origin of Power and Dr. Brainstorm stuff could be dismissed out of hand as self-serving propaganda from unreliable narrators. You didn't have to do the arc anyway, if you didn't want to. If you want to progress in the Incarnate storyline though, you must do Ramiel's arc, which ties you to the Well. If you want more powers, you must take them from the Well. Why can't my Judgement slot look like a Footstomp? Because the Well says so. Why can't I have a pet that isn't Praetorian? Because the Well won't give me one.|
Originally Posted by Dr_Mechano
From an RP standpoint the Well storyline can be just as ignored as the Origin of Powers or the Dr Brainstorm stuff (which...I think 90% of RPers actually do).
Unfortunately the Devs seem to really want to go out of their way to shove it down our throats and making it as hard as possible to simply shove aside. |
I should not have to ignore every new development in the game in order to keep playing. Game lore should be written so as to encourage people to want to incorporate it into their personal lore, not to force increasingly convoluted mental gymnastics to explain how it isn't relevant to you. At that point, they might as well have written "Tyrant is bad. Go beat him up."
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This is at least a little bit like asking "Why do you need a gun to fire off a full auto?". Why? Because it matches the lore of the powerset and the game. Not to mention that the judgement and destiny slots are colorable, which means they're at least a little bit customizable. I agree to some extent about the lore pet, but if the concept is, you reach down into the well's memory and grab a reflection, then it kind of makes sense that you would grab a praetorian reflection right now. It's not like they don't have the option for giving more reflections later on (not that I'm saying they will, just that the option is there). I *would* like the option to fire Judgement attacks out of a weapon - which was be very cool - but I get why not.|
Originally Posted by Eva Destruction
That is the problem. The Origin of Power and Dr. Brainstorm stuff could be dismissed out of hand as self-serving propaganda from unreliable narrators. You didn't have to do the arc anyway, if you didn't want to. If you want to progress in the Incarnate storyline though, you must do Ramiel's arc, which ties you to the Well. If you want more powers, you must take them from the Well. Why can't my Judgement slot look like a Footstomp? Because the Well says so. Why can't I have a pet that isn't Praetorian? Because the Well won't give me one.
I should not have to ignore every new development in the game in order to keep playing. Game lore should be written so as to encourage people to want to incorporate it into their personal lore, not to force increasingly convoluted mental gymnastics to explain how it isn't relevant to you. At that point, they might as well have written "Tyrant is bad. Go beat him up." |
Not to mention that none of these things overwrite any powers you already have. It's not like you're going to never use Inferno again because you have Pyronic Judgement. It means you'll use pyronic Judgement on one spawn, Inferno the next and then LRM the third.
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But we've known that for ages - Statesman and Recluse have been the main signatiure characters because they drank from the Well of the Furies - there's never been any other suggestion in the game of another way to become as poweful as them, apart from using the same source of power that they used.
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Originally Posted by Eva Destruction
If you want more powers, you must take them from the Well.
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@Golden Girl
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I think the fact that, in the game, we were able to beat them in a one-on-one setting basically indicates that there was another way to become not only as powerful as them, but, in fact, more powerful.
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
But we've known that for ages - Statesman and Recluse have been the main signatiure characters because they drank from the Well of the Furies - there's never been any other suggestion in the game of another way to become as poweful as them, apart from using the same source of power that they used.
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Better tell the PPD Hardsuit pilots they have to stop using their wrist-cannons, then.
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Originally Posted by Blue_Mourning
This is at least a little bit like asking "Why do you need a gun to fire off a full auto?". Why? Because it matches the lore of the powerset and the game.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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Originally Posted by Dr_Mechano
From an RP standpoint the Well storyline can be just as ignored as the Origin of Powers or the Dr Brainstorm stuff (which...I think 90% of RPers actually do).
Unfortunately the Devs seem to really want to go out of their way to shove it down our throats and making it as hard as possible to simply shove aside. |
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Originally Posted by Eva Destruction
You didn't have to do the arc anyway, if you didn't want to. If you want to progress in the Incarnate storyline though, you must do Ramiel's arc, which ties you to the Well. If you want more powers, you must take them from the Well. Why can't my Judgement slot look like a Footstomp? Because the Well says so. Why can't I have a pet that isn't Praetorian? Because the Well won't give me one.
I should not have to ignore every new development in the game in order to keep playing. Game lore should be written so as to encourage people to want to incorporate it into their personal lore, not to force increasingly convoluted mental gymnastics to explain how it isn't relevant to you. |
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Originally Posted by BrandX
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The well didn't teach you how to do any of that. The well gave you the potential to do all that. Mind you, that's if you go by the Well and not, as Mechano said, ignore the game canon, you as an RPer (or just a concept builder if not an RPer) choose. |
Now as an RPer, I will say that working around newer lore is getting harder and harder, and when you RP in group, everyone's different readings/interpretations can collide very easily.
though I did manage to succeed in working around the Mender Ramiel arc in way (for demonstration) as follows:
My main katana scrapper reincarnates, and his earliest recalled life was Oranbega, so he's got a lot of lives to cover. The entire arc is 'playing through hie memories' ala the animus in Assassin's Creed to learn from his past lives.
First mission (where the Storm's broken over Ouroboros) was played out as his witnessing of the Mu Oranbegan war at its peek. (The twist being Mender Ramiel was played as his dying past incarnation, having lost everything in a war wrought by jealous gods and swearing revenge)
Second mission was a later life as an Indian soldier who's wife had been taken by a demon (Trapdoor) and he journeyed into hell itself to rescue her. Only to find out that his long tours as a soldier meant his wife had become lonely and felt neglected, and both her and the demon were mutually in love. (cue BSOD for that life)
Third mission was his life as a soldier Serving Alexander the Great, he was separated from his unit by a sandstorm during the Persian campaign and found himself in ancient Persian ruins fighting 'Sand Demons', at the end, he subdued a hammy Janni (Honoree) and became its master for that life.
Forth and final mission was played a Tibetan monk who had gone on a spirit quest to defeat a demon who had been haunting him, the cavern of the Well became the demon's lair, and the time echos worked perfectly since the demon was Drug (A Persian demoness of Lies and Deceptions, in this case, illusions too), and sadly, when he finally confronted the demon, he lost, but was able to foresee her inevitable defeat.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
City of Heroes is a game about freedom of expression and variety of experiences far more so than it is about representing any one theme, topic or genre.
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Statesman is the Superman of the world, yes but he wasn't really the be all and end all, not everything focused around him and during Troy's run on the comics he was actually very well written (every other handling of him seemed like the REALLY hated Superman and took out frustrations on our resident Superman expy).
Statesman is never really in the limelight that often and when he's presented ingame he's actually a lot more of a pushover than even some of his colleges on the Freedom Phalanx (he's Invuln/SS, yes he has a crashless unstoppable but so does Back Alley Brawler...Statesman just has that big AoE as well).
He cropped up where it made sense for someone like Superman to make a stand, against very powerful villains who brutally beat his Granddaughter (you'd be pissed too). Yes ye olde Statesman did smash a Rikti Mothership but that's not ingame and he isn't as stupidly overpowered ingame as he is in backstory, if anything with the introduction of IOs the players have far surpassed him before even taking the first step onto the Incarnate ladder
However with the introduction of Cimmerorea all that begun to change.
First we are introduced to his ancient times version, then to his Nazi version to the now uber-Incarnate level Praetorian version. He crops up everywhere and he's always the best of the best, miles better than any player.
Over the last couple of years everything has begun to revolve around Marcus Cole and the Praetorian Invasion angle is just the pinnacle of that. All the buildup has been to show how awesome Marcus Cole is.
The only way he could be an alternate dimension Marcus Cole, is if Cimeroa isn't the past, but an alternate dimension entirely.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection