How many times must I die to ambushes before I can re-complain?
While I don't want to put words in her mouth (lest she start getting mean and snarky at me again), I think Arcana has articulated in the past that, as tempting as it is to build threats specifically designed to counter-act the prevalence of soft-capping in the post-IO world, as long as they continue to have powersets whose sole or primary protection is based off defence, doing so enters the incredibly dangerous territory of unduly punishing those sets simply because IOs exist.
Furthermore, it's imperative I defeat ambushes FAST, because the next one will spawn on a set timer, not when I've killed the previous one. If I dilly-dally, I'll get mobbed by 20 people, as I have on multiple occasions. At that point the only thing I can do is hide around the corner, score one critical and run away, at which point a Repair Companion will just heal the damage I did and they'll keep chasing me. If I do manage to down one, a Construction Companion will just rez him. Again and again.
Even when this tactic is successful, it takes FOREVER, and at that point I already consider the mission a failure. If it were just one mission I'd shrug and move on, but when three arcs back-to-back had ambush spam, that got to me. |
But as far as timed ambushes, I haven encountered some but never 20 mobs...you can't even keep aggro from 20. The cap is only 16 so I'd have to see it to believe it. Never encountered such a thing except in whacked out AE missions.
No. No, it really does not work that way. I've played Stalkers, I've used placate a crapton, and it does NOT work that way.
Placate Ranged, ST, Foe Placate, Self Stealth/Hide |
So, sure, you can still run. And the ambushes will follow you. You can run past other spawns just fine. That will not magically stop the ambushes from following, firing on you as soon as in range because they flat out ignore stealth, and getting to you. End the hell of. |
This gets into territory that I've seen be touchy on the forums in the past. If you crank up your encounters enough, and you are operating on the envelope of what can defeat you, CoH does have an element of skill that can determine success or failure. It's not as complex as an FPS, but it's actually surprisingly similar. I honestly believe that a nascent sense that this part of game was out there was one of the things that kept me interested in it - CoH was my first MMO - before it I only played FPSes.
Let me give an example. I play Regen characters a fair bit, having four in total. Regen is very click-happy. In the heat of a fight that's tough enough to kill you, you might die for not having reacted quickly enough. Regen is sort of the poster child example of a handful of powersets that really brings to the forefront how a combat is a race to see who runs out of HP first. When I jump in a pile of stuff on a Regen, I'm calculating where I will target to try and AoE the most foes. As each target gets low on health, I start thinking about which other target I can see might be a better target for my next big attack. I have to pay attention to what the spawn is composed of, because certain debuffs can speed my defeat, and must be eliminated early. I am constantly moving, prioritizing targets, switching powers, watching my health, etc. I only have to play with that intensity because I play on elevated difficulties, but because I play on such settings, I do demand that I play using rapid, tactically wise "in the moment" choices. If I aim a cone in the wrong direction, use a heal too early, or leave the wrong target for last, I can end up dead. (I can also end up dead if the RNG blesses me with too many misses, which usually leaves me grumpy.)
Not everyone enjoys playing like this. In fact, the near requirement that Regen be played this way to survive under stress is something that keeps some players away from it. Other players enjoy that aspect of the powerset, and enjoyment of that aspect is why I have four Regens.
Just my opinion, but I do think there is value in adding content that makes it worthwhile to play the way I do, and based on something hopefully much more solid than my opinion, apparently the devs do too, or we wouldn't be getting the kind of end-game we are. I don't think that the early game is the right place to make that playstyle the default.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
While I don't want to put words in her mouth (lest she start getting mean and snarky at me again), I think Arcana has articulated in the past that, as tempting as it is to build threats specifically designed to counter-act the prevalence of soft-capping in the post-IO world, as long as they continue to have powersets whose sole or primary defence is based off defence, doing so enters the incredibly dangerous territory of unduly punishing those sets simply because IOs exist.
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As she has also stated, if all things considered the reward earning rates of defense sets are not heavily impacted by the existence of these NPCs, then at least on one metric of balance everything is groovy. Since defense sets able to soft-cap probably are able to earn rewards at many multiples of the rate of other sets, it seems to me to be a bit unwise to do anything which even marginally increases that.
And sure it wouldn't be broken to change the DE, but as Arcanaville, our dear Incarnate of Maths has stated to many a poster (as the EvilGeko giggled) it doesn't matter whether it "breaks" anything.
My view is that the defense sets (of which several of my 50s are) on the standard difficulty are still able to maul DE missions significantly faster than average even if they are at a relative disadvantage. Arcanaville isn't wrong about anything she stated. She's absolutely right. The DE are not fair to defense sets. I concede the point. But as she has told me many times, that's not enough.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
This gets into territory that I've seen be touchy on the forums in the past. If you crank up your encounters enough, and you are operating on the envelope of what can defeat you, CoH does have an element of skill that can determine success or failure. It's not as complex as an FPS, but it's actually surprisingly similar. I honestly believe that a nascent sense that this part of game was out there was one of the things that kept me interested in it - CoH was my first MMO - before it I only played FPSes.
Let me give an example. I play Regen characters a fair bit, having four in total. Regen is very click-happy. In the heat of a fight that's tough enough to kill you, you might die for not having reacted quickly enough. Regen is sort of the poster child example of a handful of powersets that really brings to the forefront how a combat is a race to see who runs out of HP first. When I jump in a pile of stuff on a Regen, I'm calculating where I will target to try and AoE the most foes. As each target gets low on health, I start thinking about which other target I can see might be a better target for my next big attack. I have to pay attention to what the spawn is composed of, because certain debuffs can speed my defeat, and must be eliminated early. I am constantly moving, prioritizing targets, switching powers, watching my health, etc. I only have to play with that intensity because I play on elevated difficulties, but because I play on such settings, I do demand that I play using rapid, tactically wise "in the moment" choices. If I aim a cone in the wrong direction, use a heal too early, or leave the wrong target for last, I can end up dead. (I can also end up dead if the RNG blesses me with too many misses, which usually leaves me grumpy.) Not everyone enjoys playing like this. In fact, the near requirement that Regen be played this way to survive under stress is something that keeps some players away from it. Other players enjoy that aspect of the powerset, and enjoyment of that aspect is why I have four Regens. |
Just my opinion, but I do think there is value in adding content that makes it worthwhile to play the way I do, and based on something hopefully much more solid than my opinion, apparently the devs do too, or we wouldn't be getting the kind of end-game we are. I don't think that the early game is the right place to make that playstyle the default. |
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
But that's just compensation for being able to trivially soft-cap don't you think? |
Edit: What I'm describing is not the same as providing something you're just weaker to. Giving DE universal +toHit as the Tip Mission versions have would be an example of making SR weaker against them. Giving them +100% toHit emanators is pretty damn close to telling an SR characters they don't get to have a secondary powerset.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
While Praetoria is harder, I'm thinking a lot of the difficulty is overstated. Even before the inherent fitness change, it wasn't really a problem to go from 1-20 with very few snags. With the fitness change, it's even easier. In a lot of ways, it makes the early game less of a mindless push and is more involving.
I'm going to have to side with EG on this one.
"the reason there are so many sarcastic pvpers is we already had a better version of pvp taken away from us to appease bad players. Back then we chuckled at how bad players came here and whined. If we knew that was the actual voice devs would listen to instead of informed, educated players we probably would have been bigger dicks back then." -ConFlict
I remember way back in Issue 1 or so, my regular COH friend was MA/SR scrapper and I was an Inv/SS tank. He HATED Nemesis and DE and I thought they were pushovers. But if we went into a Malta or Carnie mission it was my turn to be afraid. He would just wade in and not get hit at all, while my Invulnerable seemed terribly vulnerable to psy damage and endurance drain.
I think that it's OK to have an NPC or even an NPC group that is strong against your character. That gives you a reason to seek out another player that covers your weakness, And, in spite of all the soloers that like to play this game, I believe it's good for MMOs to encourage teaming in this way.
50s: Inv/SS PB Emp/Dark Grav/FF DM/Regen TA/A Sonic/Elec MA/Regen Fire/Kin Sonic/Rad Ice/Kin Crab Fire/Cold NW Merc/Dark Emp/Sonic Rad/Psy Emp/Ice WP/DB FA/SM
Overlord of Dream Team and Nightmare Squad
I think that it's OK to have an NPC or even an NPC group that is strong against your character. That gives you a reason to seek out another player that covers your weakness, And, in spite of all the soloers that like to play this game, I believe it's good for MMOs to encourage teaming in this way.
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I remember way back in Issue 1 or so, my regular COH friend was MA/SR scrapper and I was an Inv/SS tank. He HATED Nemesis and DE and I thought they were pushovers. But if we went into a Malta or Carnie mission it was my turn to be afraid. He would just wade in and not get hit at all, while my Invulnerable seemed terribly vulnerable to psy damage and endurance drain.
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There's also tactics for Nemesis; defeat the lieutenants last. If you happen across a spawn that is entirely lieutenants... well, the one time that happened to me I just decided to drop the mission.
But you can't stop the Guardians from summoning a crystal eminator. And that 100% to hit bonus is from a bygone era, when there was no aggro cap and Invincibility tanks would get 10% defense per enemy in range.
But that's just compensation for being able to trivially soft-cap don't you think?
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But DE eminators have always been a problematic entity: they are game-breakingly (and I use the phrase in its literal sense) bad**. Adding 14% tohit to all Praetorian DE on top exceeds my tolerance for numerical error.
If the devs come out and specifically state that the purpose of those missions is to assassinate defense-based characters in a way that no other type of character is remotely challenged in the game, because they decided that they have a hard-on for torturing defense-based characters, then its not game-breaking, although it would be a bit jerky. Otherwise, the design is broken in a way that was settled years ago and should not need to be rehashed again.
It took years to get it fixed the first time around, and I gave the dev team the benefit of the doubt that they had to get it out of their system to not trust the math and just mess around with silly stuff (like randomly tweaking with rank tohit levels and buffing evasion of all things). But they've seen that it doesn't work already once before, and they've seen that the math does work, with 100% precision, every single time, so this time around if they try screwing around with the numbers in ways that just don't work, I'm less inclined not to call them out on it.
I don't actually mind the game getting harder in certain areas, but that doesn't mean I have to approve of every set of random numbers put into the archetype tables. 64% is a kind of weird number, unless you've been through this once before and you realize some people continue to think linearly about non-linear effects. Geko wanted SR's power cut in half, and cut the defense values in half just before release. That cut their strength by 75% against minions and also made them completely worthless against release bosses. Incorrect linear thinking. Someone thought people were taking circa 31% SR defenses and soft-capping them with about 14% more defense: 64% defense would, with linear thinking, put them back where they started. What does it do to people who don't soft-cap? Eh, who cares. What about people who have *only* high defense, and aren't soft cap-wrapping around very sizable mitigation besides? Eh, corner case.
Sometimes its more than a little exasperating, because this is seventh grade math. But in any case, that's between me, Black Scorpion, and his maker. I'm not saying he did it in the first place, but he's the one that's going to fix it.
** PS: I never said being game breaking was not a problem. What I say is that *not* being game-breaking is not in and of itself good reason to do something.
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64% is a kind of weird number, unless you've been through this once before and you realize some people continue to think linearly about non-linear effects.
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I have gone through the builds of all my high-level characters since I got back, planning the alpha slot and whatnot. The only one that's going to come close (in fact, so close I may actually manage to softcap at 64 to nearly everything) is my MA/EnA stalker.
Kind of hilarious that my most survivable character may end up being the redheaded stepchild.
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I remember way back in Issue 1 or so, my regular COH friend was MA/SR scrapper and I was an Inv/SS tank. He HATED Nemesis and DE and I thought they were pushovers. But if we went into a Malta or Carnie mission it was my turn to be afraid. He would just wade in and not get hit at all, while my Invulnerable seemed terribly vulnerable to psy damage and endurance drain.
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And those turrets that Malta engineers were spawning back then? 115% tohit. SR didn't become "unhittable" until I2 and perma-elude started getting us to circa 100% defense with passives. And the reason why we didn't care about sappers or Carnie drain is because a) we couldn't be detoggled and b) Elude crashed us to zero so often who'd even notice getting hit by a sapper.
I think that it's OK to have an NPC or even an NPC group that is strong against your character. That gives you a reason to seek out another player that covers your weakness, And, in spite of all the soloers that like to play this game, I believe it's good for MMOs to encourage teaming in this way. |
1. Spawned turrets (75% base tohit)
2. Spawned pets and pseudo pets (75% base tohit)
3. Praetorian critters (base 64% tohit)
4. Quartz eminators (ally buff: +100% tohit)
5. Rularuu sentries (+100% tohit)
6. Non-positional psi (particularly anything with blind, dominate, or mesmerize - Tsoo, Rikti, Lost, Carnies, Arachnos...)
7. Anything with tactics
8. Anything with vengeance (particularly Nemesis)
9. Anything that autohits (there's still stuff out there, like caltrops)
On top of that, anything that generates an unadjusted net tohit greater than 95% will hit a defense set harder than a non-defense set, because there's no way to generate net tohit higher than 95%. So a gunslinger Boss essentially drives a non-defensive set to the 95% ceiling: damage goes up by 90% relative to base accuracy. However, a Gunslinger boss with +100% accuracy and 1.3 rank accuracy will have a net tohit of 5 * 1.3 * 2.0 = 13% against a soft-capped SR scrapper: 160% higher net damage from base accuracy. A +4 gunslinger can't hit anyone else any more often than 95% of the time, but can still hit a defensive set character 40% more often over and above all other accuracy bonuses.
When I settled for seeing base 50% critter tohit for standard critters, I didn't "win." I conceded that was good enough for playability purposes. It did not in fact make defensive sets even with other sets. Just close enough. There is no pendulum to swing back. I have plenty of latitude to demand it swing several times farther towards defense sets. Adding more tohit just gave me a reason to press the issue, implying things had gone too far the other way for defensive sets reminds me that some people think SR won a lottery of some kind when no such thing happened. Ironically, the huge amount of defense floating around doesn't help defense sets. When even blasters can range-cap, it completely devalues defense sets.
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All this talk of 24 and 48 player Leagues, 65% to hit in Tip Missions and 75% to hit for pets has me wondering exactly where this game is going, and if I'm going to stay with it much longer.
Don't get me wrong, I love the City of X franchise. Out of the 16 MMOs I have played, this is the only one I not only have a capped character on, but multiple capped characters. I love the idea of being a superhero or supervillian. I love righting wrongs and balancing the injustice put on the citizens of our fair city. Or in the case of CoV, causing the wrongs and injustice.
What I don't get is penalizing characters who specialize in one thing and do it well, such as /SR.
I have two capped /SR characters at the moment. Both are softcapped, one is Claws, the other is DM. I like both of these characters, and I nutured and played them from 1 to 50, through all the tribulations and triumphs, and my dm/sr has one of my greatest moments in gaming history. So why should they, or anyone other character with a specialized skill, such as being softcapped, be punished?
To be honest, this game is starting to remind me less and less of a superhero MMO and more of the DM I had once in a pickup group tabletop AD&D session who demanded that all Rogues (Thief at that time,) with a Dexterity score of over 20 use a d100 (back when lower was better) for Dex checks, when people with any other score over 20 were allowed to use the d20.
Which basically meant, anyone with an ability score of 1-20+ that wasn't Dexterity needed a roll of (Ability x5%) or less, while those of us with a Dexterity higher than 20 needed a roll of percentage (Ability x1%) or less, even though that was the one thing most Rogues had in common, and the one thing they specialized in.
To stay on topic, on my Brutes, Scrappers and Tankers, I love the ambushes. I'm Brock Sampson fighting ninjas forever when it comes to those. On every other AT, they are annoying and badly designed game mechanics.
Might as roll under a 21 on percentile dice if you're not a melee AT.
What I don't get is penalizing characters who specialize in one thing and do it well, such as /SR.
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Most people criticize the devs without a full appreciation for how complex and time consuming designing and implementing an MMO is: how many competing interests and varying skill sets have to be carefully coordinated and managed to produce a final product that is the sum of a large number of different people's judgement. I *do* know and appreciate all that and so I'm very moderate in my criticisms over issues that I know are complex issues.
This ain't complex. This is extremely basic math that has no excuse for "iterative design" to figure out. There's this school of thought among many game designers, including many of ours actually, that says math is not trustworthy, because it can lead to wrong answers. Iterative design is the right way to do things, because it allows you to take a reasonable guess, test it and see how close you were, and then adjust.
Math never leads to the wrong answers unless the people you hire to do the math suck at it. Game design - specifically the underlying mechanics of games - are just an engineering problem. They are solvable by the same mathematics and analytical design methodologies all other engineering problems on earth are solved with. Games are not magic in that respect that they can resist numerical analysis.
The creative parts of the game are a different story: they are an art not a science. But how much damage power bolt should do or how much XP a 43 minion should grant or how fast sprint should be are not creative decisions. The creativity element is in deciding what goals you have for what those things should do. Then creativity steps aside and engineering dictates how to satisfy those goals with precision.
For some reason, this seems to be an inexplicably controversial idea. I could probably duel Positron's blog for years talking about this subject, except I'm not really a professional game designer so no one actually cares what I think about the subject. As they probably should not. Without a resume, I have no credibility on that score except my experience as a player.
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I remember way back in Issue 1 or so, my regular COH friend was MA/SR scrapper and I was an Inv/SS tank. He HATED Nemesis and DE and I thought they were pushovers. But if we went into a Malta or Carnie mission it was my turn to be afraid. He would just wade in and not get hit at all, while my Invulnerable seemed terribly vulnerable to psy damage and endurance drain.
I think that it's OK to have an NPC or even an NPC group that is strong against your character. That gives you a reason to seek out another player that covers your weakness, And, in spite of all the soloers that like to play this game, I believe it's good for MMOs to encourage teaming in this way. |
Not 1-20 rookies that only get DOs in the latter 1/3 of that level range and have less than half of each powerset.
Having NPCs that counter already weak aspects (regen, defences, mez) is called Overkill. And, for once, it does exist.
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Math never leads to the wrong answers unless the people you hire to do the math suck at it. Game design - specifically the underlying mechanics of games - are just an engineering problem. They are solvable by the same mathematics and analytical design methodologies all other engineering problems on earth are solved with. Games are not magic in that respect that they can resist numerical analysis.
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If part of your design goal is to: Make the player feel like a superhero, how do you reduce that to a formula? Sure you have to come up with some numbers but how do you get to that precision? It seems that:
Iterative design is the right way to do things, because it allows you to take a reasonable guess, test it and see how close you were, and then adjust. |
Again, I'm asking. I'm honestly curious for how you would apply math to that problem.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
Notice that emphasized part. It's a good tactic to use *as* you run, not before. I'd rather not go into the complexities of line-of-sight, what affects Hide's suppression timer and the no-alert-target status of Placate and just comment that, if you want to run through a map without being shot by the non-aggroed foes, you can.
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Ask them nicely not to shoot at you?
I don't think you understand just how huge a hole there in in your 'logic' here. Placate works on ONE enemy. Ambushes are never ONE enemy. The other enemies can still SEE you. And they can and will SHOOT you. And that then means that one enemy can also see you again. Meaning you just wasted a power.
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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All I have behind me is basic math classes I took in college, so I'm asking not arguing.
If part of your design goal is to: Make the player feel like a superhero, how do you reduce that to a formula? Sure you have to come up with some numbers but how do you get to that precision? It seems that: That feels right to me. Because honestly, who cares whether the math works out if the end product is super fun? Again, I'm asking. I'm honestly curious for how you would apply math to that problem. |
There is no maths to game design.
Fun is not a numerical or algebraic concept, it can not be boiled down into an engineering problem.
Brawling Cactus from a distant planet.
I always thought that ambushes should work differently for Stalkers. The ambushes should still charge, but not directly at you. Perhaps to some random point nearby you.
The effect would be that, they know you're there somewhere, but they can't see you. So they have to roam around blindly. There could even be NPC dialog about how they can't find you and how frustrating that is. If one of them gets aggro, then you can get something like, "He's here! He's here!" |
All I have behind me is basic math classes I took in college, so I'm asking not arguing.
If part of your design goal is to: Make the player feel like a superhero, how do you reduce that to a formula? Sure you have to come up with some numbers but how do you get to that precision? It seems that: That feels right to me. Because honestly, who cares whether the math works out if the end product is super fun? Again, I'm asking. I'm honestly curious for how you would apply math to that problem. |
The creative parts of the game are a different story: they are an art not a science. But how much damage power bolt should do or how much XP a 43 minion should grant or how fast sprint should be are not creative decisions. The creativity element is in deciding what goals you have for what those things should do. Then creativity steps aside and engineering dictates how to satisfy those goals with precision. |
Consider a more concrete example: rollercoasters. Rollercoasters are supposed to be all sorts of things not reducible to equations: scary, thrilling, wild, fun. It takes skill, art, and creativity to come up with a conceptual design for a successful rollercoaster.
Now, who do you want to build it if you or your child is going to ride it? Someone who wings it and will keep building it and tearing it down until it sort of feels right? Or a structural and mechanical engineer? Its a false dichotomy to believe that there exists a creative design process used exclusively for creative things, and a mechanical one for boring things. There's only two kinds of design: the kind that works, and the kind that doesn't. If you find your kind has a tendency to not work, you're practicing the latter kind. Its not because games design is the most complex endeavor on Earth.
A game can fail to be fun for lack of creativity. But the devs don't balance things like the strength of Willpower's powers or the number of Vahzilok's attacks based on testing to see which number is the fun number. There is no such thing as a fun number. They balance those things around performance metrics. Those performance metrics can be hard-codified and then targeted with precision. They just aren't. You don't actually believe that the devs think 13.875% is a "fun number" for SR toggles, or that they playtested a variety of different values and asked Q&A to tell them which one was "the funnest" value, do you?
The devs decide fun far further upstream. They decide that this game's idea of fun is that the average scrapper can take on about this much stuff. You tell me what that is, and I'll tell you what the SR toggles have to be, what the recharge of reconstruction has to be, what the terrorize duration of Cloak of Fear has to be. You tell me what scrappers are supposed to be able to do, and I will tell you what their numbers are supposed to be in their entirety, to the fourth decimal place. The guy that decided fun is taking on four +3 minions might be wrong. I won't be.
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Being violated by Hazard Zone sized spawns of Trolls and Outcasts, often with multiple bosses and trying to sneak up Death Mountain past +6 Ruin Mages builds character.
I had a few more issues with the Praetorian missions on my Stalker. Similar to Alpha's and Sam's issues.
Homing ambushes violating my Stalker with 3 foot anal probes is not fun.
There I was between a rock and a hard place. Then I thought, "What am I doing on this side of the rock?"