Stalker or Scrapper on your team?
By
Auroxis,
Posted on: 2011-02-09 08:37 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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Because, if you were a scrapper, you would require less red inspirations to do the same damage and you would one shot yellow mitos more often.|
Originally Posted by Terror1
If i'm able to one shot yellows on a puny stalker. How does the extra damage make scrappers better in that situation if the mitos hp do not vary?
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You would also survive more, which in turn gives you more damage. Defeated characters don't do much in the way of damage.
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i.e. It'd doesn't matter if you defeat stuff and survive fine, Terror, because on paper, Scrappers are better! And elitists only need that for a reason!|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
Because, if you were a scrapper, you would require less red inspirations to do the same damage and you would one shot yellow mitos more often.
You would also survive more, which in turn gives you more damage. Defeated characters don't do much in the way of damage. |
So just drop it, Terror >_>
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I'm sorry... I gotta call ** on that one. I play on freedom, that's a high population server, and have never see stalkers avoided when a scrapper would be accepted. |
Originally Posted by EvilRyu
Liberty is a medium size server at best. Try that on a server that has a real sizable population. You will get a "lol stalkers" so fast it will make your head spin.
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I completely agree that stalkers are underpowered. I completely agree that they should be buffed. But I completely disagree that it's prevented them from getting team invites. Yeah, people look for support classes and tank classes, then just fill with damage or whatever, so stalkers are less wanted then others. But scrappers and blasters have that same issue.
I gotta make pain. I gotta make things right. I gotta stop what's comin'. 'Least I gotta try.
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How about you go back to what started all of this? Let me help you: It was a question of which is better. All analysis points to a scrapper.|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
i.e. It'd doesn't matter if you defeat stuff and survive fine, Terror, because on paper, Scrappers are better! And elitists only need that for a reason!
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We're not debating which is acceptable. I've never denied stalkers from my teams because I know full well they can do "good enough." The fact of the matter is that "good enough" is very clearly not "better" in any way.
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don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
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This isn't really an issue, unless you are dealing with high damage boosts. (At which time you would have different values stacking with your reds) Overall, the Scrapper will do more base damage, but the Stalker will Crit more often. Assuming the Stalker is pulling ahead on damage (i.e. sufficient allies in melee to provide random Crits) the reds will be doubled along with the Crits. |
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
Because, if you were a scrapper, you would require less red inspirations to do the same damage and you would one shot yellow mitos more often.
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Because of the way Crit works, Scrappers behave as if they have a 1.125*1.075 base damage, and Stalkers behave as if they have a 1.0*1.1 base damage. If Stalkers had a 20% Crit rate, they'd do the same damage as Scrappers. Single target damage, but the same damage.
Scrappers do not "pull ahead" of Stalkers, the way they do with Brutes. They remain at exactly the same ratio of damage relative to the number of teammates in melee.
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| You would also survive more, which in turn gives you more damage. Defeated characters don't do much in the way of damage. |
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From the point I was reading, it wasn't 'which is better' but 'if you're 1-2 shotting things and surviving, what use is being 'better'?'. I could be wrong about what you're debating though, but it seems subjectively 'equal' to me as one leverages 'burst tactics' and the other leverages 'slightly superior stats'.|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
How about you go back to what started all of this? Let me help you: It was a question of which is better. All analysis points to a scrapper.
We're not debating which is acceptable. I've never denied stalkers from my teams because I know full well they can do "good enough." The fact of the matter is that "good enough" is very clearly not "better" in any way. |
The slightly superior stats will always look 'better' when you disregard what the other is leveraging.
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So um, since the discussion is "Which would you take: Scrapper or Stalker," why would you go Stalker if they're worse? This argument seems to revolve around "The Stalker is only a little worse!" You're pretty much saying "Here is your choice: A Scrapper or someone who's only 10% less than a Scrapper. It's only 10%!"|
Originally Posted by Jade_Dragon
This I can't argue with. But you're basically talking about a difference of maybe 10% of the fight. And that's assuming the Stalker is actually doing badly enough to be dying///////defeated.
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Like if you offer me two sandwiches, one you took a bite out of, I'm not going to be swayed by the argument of "It's only a little less sandwich, come on!"
I could see the viewpoint that Stalkers are "enough," but the purpose of this thread is giving us the choice between Scrappers and Stalkers. "Stalker is only a little worse" doesn't answer the question of why you'd take a Stalker over a Scrapper.
EDIT: I had some time to kill while waiting on an LGTF to start. Blame the boredom.
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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That argument always ignores that the Stalker does greater burst damage. It is always a comparison between sustained damage between the two ATs, and survivability. |
Originally Posted by Dispari
So um, since the discussion is "Which would you take: Scrapper or Stalker," why would you go Stalker if they're worse? This argument seems to revolve around "The Stalker is only a little worse!" You're pretty much saying "Here is your choice: A Scrapper or someone who's only 10% less than a Scrapper. It's only 10%!"
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There is also the tendency to underestimate the survivability of the Stalker. For the purposes of the argument, it always seems to be assumed that the Stalker is as fragile as, say, a Blaster.
Adding the two together, it has never seemed to me that "the Stalker is a little worse". My perception is and has always been that "the Stalker always defeats foes a little faster at first, and then over time the Scrapper catches up." The lower hit points balance out because, as Dechs said, defeated enemies don't do much by way of damage.
[edit] So is your picture how much HP the Stalker has left, or how many enemies the Stalker has left? Or, perhaps even both?
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OMG This x 1000000000|
Originally Posted by Dispari
So um, since the discussion is "Which would you take: Scrapper or Stalker," why would you go Stalker if they're worse? This argument seems to revolve around "The Stalker is only a little worse!" You're pretty much saying "Here is your choice: A Scrapper or someone who's only 10% less than a Scrapper. It's only 10%!"
Like if you offer me two sandwiches, one you took a bite out of, I'm not going to be swayed by the argument of "It's only a little less sandwich, come on!" I could see the viewpoint that Stalkers are "enough," but the purpose of this thread is giving us the choice between Scrappers and Stalkers. "Stalker is only a little worse" doesn't answer the question of why you'd take a Stalker over a Scrapper. EDIT: I had some time to kill while waiting on an LGTF to start. Blame the boredom. |
You have won the thread with this pick. This needs to be our "lol stalkers" poster right here. Make a huge poster of this pic and send it to the devs.
Bump and Grind Bane/SoA
Kenja No Ishi Earth/Empathy Controller
Legendary Sannin Ninja/Pain Mastermind
Entoxicated Ninja/PSN Mastermind
Ninja Ryukenden Kat/WP Scrapper
Hellish Thoughts Fire/PSI Dominator
Thank You Devs for Merits!!!!
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The Stalker doesn't always do greater burst damage, and the longer the window you look at, the more the Scrapper pulls closer or ahead (depending on the set you look at and time window in question). The standard crit rate is 10% for Scrappers when fighting anything you'd care about single-target burst on - which is to say, lieutenants or larger. Running some quick numbers for Martial Arts, a Scrapper has about a 90 point advantage in burst at the end of a Build Up cycle (~2400 vs ~2311) unless the Stalker uses Placate to take advantage of Eagle Claw's higher scale for Stalkers and somehow squeezes in a last attack with 0.014 seconds left in BU's active time (then the Stalker is up to 2617, or if they don't get it in 2254... lower than if they hadn't bothered to use Placate and just kept going with harder hitting attacks). That's a really tight margin for error, as well - you're probably going to lose 0.02 seconds at some point due to network latency.|
Originally Posted by Jade_Dragon
That argument always ignores that the Stalker does greater burst damage. It is always a comparison between sustained damage between the two ATs, and survivability.
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There's also the fact that single-target burst in this game is completely and utterly useless; AoE burst is good for clearing out an entire spawn quickly and recharging while you move to the next one, but Scrappers have a definitive edge there (see: Shield Charge).
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
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My answer is Scrapper, if I have to choose between the two.
Better AoE damage, possible taunt aura, similar ST DPS, harder to kill.
I've never turned a Stalker away from a team, but there is no reason to choose one over a Scrapper - not even stealth, because someone else will usually have at the least passable stealth.
Stalkers should have been buffed, I don't understand why Scrappers are allowed to totally outclass them.
Brutes were nerfed because they were too close to Scrapper damage output, and because they had more HP.
Why this does not also apply to the relationship between Scrappers and Stalkers is beyond me.
Stalkers are underpowered, plain and simple. There is a reason so many people consistently avoid adding them to teams (and I'm not one of them, I'll work with any at when forming a team, but I'm not going to pretend I'm not aware of the relative strength of one at vs. another, especially on teams.)
Those who don't seem to see the problem claim they are superior to scrappers in terms of single target damage, but in reality the two at's are pretty much on par there, and single target damage is not very valuable on teams anyway. The one area where stalkers actually are notably superior is burst damage, but again, burst damage is not very valuable on teams, hell, it's not very valuable solo either. AOE is the name of the game on teams, and in pve too really, since you are almost always fighting more than one foe, and scrappers on average bring more of that to the table than stalkers. Then you have the other team benefits that scrappers add to a team better than stalkers - aggro generation/control and better survivability and damage absorbtion.
I like the concept of stalkers, but in terms of overall ability, and especially in terms of value added to teams, this at could really use some added power/abilities to be more competitive with other at's.
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But the AT was considered balanced according to Castle and Black Scorpion seems to be of the same opinion. |
Originally Posted by Cyber_naut
Stalkers are underpowered, plain and simple. There is a reason so many people consistently avoid adding them to teams (and I'm not one of them, I'll work with any at when forming a team, but I'm not going to pretend I'm not aware of the relative strength of one at vs. another, especially on teams.)
Those who don't seem to see the problem claim they are superior to scrappers in terms of single target damage, but in reality the two at's are pretty much on par there, and single target damage is not very valuable on teams anyway. The one area where stalkers actually are notably superior is burst damage, but again, burst damage is not very valuable on teams, hell, it's not very valuable solo either. AOE is the name of the game on teams, and in pve too really, since you are almost always fighting more than one foe, and scrappers on average bring more of that to the table than stalkers. Then you have the other team benefits that scrappers add to a team better than stalkers - aggro generation/control and better survivability and damage absorbtion. I like the concept of stalkers, but in terms of overall ability, and especially in terms of value added to teams, this at could really use some added power/abilities to be more competitive with other at's. |
Actually i pulled tthat one out of my *** i have no idea what Black Scorpion thinks. Mostly since he doesn't really interact and it's hard to see where he stands.
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QFT. Wow. I have never seen this stated so well.
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Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
Stalkers should have been buffed, I don't understand why Scrappers are allowed to totally outclass them.
Brutes were nerfed because they were too close to Scrapper damage output, and because they had more HP. Why this does not also apply to the relationship between Scrappers and Stalkers is beyond me. |
Words to the wise aren't necessary- it's the stupid ones that need them.
"You're right...I forgot...being constantly at or the near the damage cap is a big turn off. Definitely not worth it."
- Vitality
If it means anything, I would usually take a Stalker over a fat AT like a Tank, unless it's something like a Fire/SS.
[U][URL="http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=251594"][/URL][/U]
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The OP asked a question. It was not "do you think Stalkers underperform Scrappers." It was "given a restricted choice, what would you choose." The question implicitly assumes that everyone who responds here will always choose their answer based on superior performance, no matter what the actual performance gap. Some of us are answering in a way intended to make clear that we would not choose on that basis, or at least not on that basis alone.|
Originally Posted by Dispari
So um, since the discussion is "Which would you take: Scrapper or Stalker," why would you go Stalker if they're worse? This argument seems to revolve around "The Stalker is only a little worse!" You're pretty much saying "Here is your choice: A Scrapper or someone who's only 10% less than a Scrapper. It's only 10%!"
Like if you offer me two sandwiches, one you took a bite out of, I'm not going to be swayed by the argument of "It's only a little less sandwich, come on!" |
We can ask this same kind of loaded question about a bunch of other ATs. What would you choose?
- Tanker or Brute?
- Defender or Corruptor?
- Tanker or Scrapper?
- Brute or Scrapper?
- Defender or Controller
- Blaster or Scrapper?
If the real point is to find out "do you think Stalkers underperform in their primary role?" then just ask that question.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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For all of these, however, I can ask "What does the team need?" as a clarification.|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
We can ask this same kind of loaded question about a bunch of other ATs. What would you choose?
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If the team needs someone to soak damage, the best option is a tank, but a brute is clearly better when you need more damage.
I can do this for the rest of your list, but when you get to "stalker or scrapper" there is no clarification needed. They both serve the purpose of "resilient damage dealer." The scrapper survives better and deals sustained damage better.
When you go with the argument of "but the stalker does better burst damage," we've already talked about how debatable that is. Depending on your burst window, the scrapper wins in the majority of cases. Aside from all that, where is that single target burst damage needed? Where is it even beneficial?
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
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So, for example, if that question came down to "Brute vs. Scrapper" that you actually think it would have a meaningful probability to affect the outcome?|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
[/LIST]For all of these, however, I can ask "What does the team need?" as a clarification.
If the team needs someone to soak damage, the best option is a tank, but a brute is clearly better when you need more damage. |
I think the answer is that it would not.
Unless I specifically know that (a) the mission goals at hand benefit significantly from adding more AoE damage (b) I do not think I have enough AoE damage (c) I know the Stalker is not one of the ones that can bring AoE damage, and (d) the Scrapper has and will use their AoE damage, I just can't see the difference being meaningful. The fact that I just produced a four point list of conditions I need to meet to care means I am not going to care most of the time even though there are reasons I might care.
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| I can do this for the rest of your list, but when you get to "stalker or scrapper" there is no clarification needed. They both serve the purpose of "resilient damage dealer." The scrapper survives better and deals sustained damage better. |
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| When you go with the argument of "but the stalker does better burst damage," we've already talked about how debatable that is. Depending on your burst window, the scrapper wins in the majority of cases. Aside from all that, where is that single target burst damage needed? Where is it even beneficial? |
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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Yes. Almost any brute has a taunt aura. All brutes have punchvoke. When the team doesn't have some one to take that role, I'd want the brute. But if there's already a taunt aura on the team, I believe the scrapper would be the best performer.|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
So, for example, if that question came down to "Brute vs. Scrapper" that you actually think it would have a meaningful probability to affect the outcome?
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Originally Posted by UberGuy
I didn't go with any argument.
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Originally Posted by UberGuy
The OP asked which I would choose. My answer has not changed - whichever one asked first. The performance difference is not enough to sway me except in edge cases, and that's going to be true when comparing any pair of AT or powerset selections.
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I just took exception to your list and its comparison to the OP's question. With everything in your list, a clear case can be made for either choice depending on situation.
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
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Energy Aura.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
Yes. Any brute has a taunt aura.
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
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Good catch. The point still stands; every brute still has punchvoke, and thus controls aggro better than the comparable scrapper.
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Originally Posted by Siolfir
Energy Aura.
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Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
First come, first served.
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I was not clear. "The question" here is one of damage - the same question one asks when choosing between a Scrapper and a Stalker.|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
Yes. Almost any brute has a taunt aura. All brutes have punchvoke.
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| I just took exception to your list and its comparison to the OP's question. With everything in your list, a clear case can be made for either choice depending on situation. |
I have admitted in two posts prior that the similarities in functional capabilities that matter to most teams between a Scrapper and a Stalker are probably more similar than for any of the other examples, and thus lack these extra dimensions of comparison. I alluded to that in the post in which I made the list you object to. I conceded it before you even responded. Therefore, I don't know why you feel the need to object to it.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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I have yet to read any Black Scorpion's opinions on Stalkers..or any AT for that matter. In fact, maybe Castle had too much stress from saying what's on his mind on this board. lol I miss his posts... even when I don't agree, I kind to know what's on dev's mind. Castle thinks Stalker is "ok". |
Originally Posted by Terror1
But the AT was considered balanced according to Castle and Black Scorpion seems to be of the same opinion.
Actually i pulled tthat one out of my *** i have no idea what Black Scorpion thinks. Mostly since he doesn't really interact and it's hard to see where he stands. |
Ok means so many things. Stalker has no problem soloing. Stalker probably does ok on a small team. Stalker's design is just not very large-team friendly because ST burst damage is over-rated and setup time is too long (for my liking anyway).
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
If i'm able to one shot yellows on a puny stalker. How does the extra damage make scrappers better in that situation if the mitos hp do not vary?