Stalker or Scrapper on your team?

Does the team have an excess of control, several taunting characters already, or any other factors that may reduce the brute's ability to do damage by hindering fury gain? The scrapper becomes the clear choice.

I had an opinion and I decided to voice it. I did not feel your admission of similarity was adequate.

There are clear cases where one AT in your list is a better choice than the other. There are not any clear cases where a stalker is a better choice than the scrapper.

I don't think that's what he meant when he said:

Emphasis mine. He's not saying that the AT is ok. He said it's as strong as they're going to make them, but they still have problems.

I don't know if I am not being clear, or you are being intentionally obtuse.

There are cases where one AT is always better. I need buffs: Defender or Corruptor, the answer is always Defender.

A whole separate layer of stupidity creeps into this debate when we admit that what we're arguing only clearly applies if we assume equivalent powersets. Who's going to deal more damage: a DB/WP Scrapper, or KM/Nin Stalker? MA/Inv Scrapper or Elect/SR Stalker?

I think I'm not being clear, but it was unintentional.

I agree with this statement. What I was trying to say is that there are cases where the other AT (in this case, Corruptor) where the answer is always Corruptor. Specifically, when you're looking for damage.

This disparity I'm trying to make painfully obvious is that there are no cases where Stalker beats Scrapper when a team is looking for anything.

This is getting off topic, but I always figure that when comparing two ATs, you must assume all other things are equal: Budget, player ability, powersets. Otherwise it's not a meaningful comparison at all.

Why are you trying to make it obvious, when it already is? Do you see me arguing it?

My earlier posts stands. If you're going to focus on narrow roles, you can make this same argument with other ATs. That's all I said. It's stupid and people do it all the time. It's easier to do it with Stalkers because they and Scrappers share a narrow role. I get it, and I have agreed with that from the start. That doesn't mean I think it's any less dumb to bias against them on that basis, just as it's dumb to do it with other ATs. The fact that there's broader selection criteria that might sway you when asking who to invite with other ATs doesn't change that core contention.

It's not off-topic for the OP, because how often are you going to get a choice between a Scrapper and a Stalker with the same overall build (as close as AT differences allow)?

IMO, what's off-topic is the (sensible) discussion of whether Stalkers underperform, and what if anything can be done about it. The OP didn't ask that, and a fair number of respondents have actually answered what was asked. Mixing the two is making a mess.

I think this discussion about stalker underperformance may have been within the ulterior purpose of this thread, given the specificity of an original question that may well have been rhetorical, and the fact that the OP participates in this 'off-topic' discussion.

I have this Love and Hate relationship with Stalker. I started the thread because I did think Stalker (with full team critical buffs) can contribute more in a tough fight but my opinion keeps changing. I was also curious to see if the opinion of Stalker has changed after so many changes.


The only thing I can say for sure is that Stalker has a bit better ST Burst damage over Scrapper and that is it. I teamed with a level shift Fire/Fire Scrapper last night during Lady Grey and his burst damage seems very high while doing much better aoe damage than my level shiftKin/Dark (I only have Burst and it's kinda slow). Fire usually does more damage because its secondary effect is more damage but the point is that Stalker isn't always doing better "burst" damage.

In fact, I've also seen Elec/Shield Scrapper farming. There is no way Stalker can match that burst damage even with Spines. So does Stalker always have better burst damage? I don't think so.

I've been playing Stalkers for quite a while. So far I have:
50 Db/Nin
50 Spine/EA
50 Kin/Dark
50 Claw/Will
41 Spine/Nin
42 Nin/SR
37 Elec/Will
36 MA/Will
32 Broad/Elec
36 DM/Will

I don't just play one or two Stalkers and say they "need more help". In fact, I've been playing with some old veterans on Freedom server after I came back the 3rd time and they all hate Stalkers. They don't just think Stalker is 'alright'. They literally hate stalkers. It's basically one-trick-pony, weak and un-fun. I am the "lol" of them because I keep making new stalkers.

I usually have no problem on a team because my friends won't kick me just because I am stalker but I do know other stalker players feel they are not wanted. I invited a Stalker to my team several weeks ago in St. Martial and he said his stalker hasn't got invite for 2 weeks. (By the way, the only AT they hate more than Stalker is Peacebringer. lol)

I have no doubt of it. I think he should have asked his ulterior question directly. Asking it the way he did isn't going to fool anyone that matters: the devs read stuff like this, but they aren't going to be convinced, for example, that no one is inviting Stalkers to teams based on thread responses, because they can just go look at the data.

Talking openly and plainly about why we think Stalkers have issues might, in a really optimistic and hopeful world,lead to insights or suggestions the Devs can use to improve the AT. Instead, we've got a hairball made of competing anecdotes, opinions of varying rationality, and earnest discussion of the basic numbers and facts. I really think that the rational discussion piece needs its own thread, away from the subjective stuff that the OP's question set up.

I uh... I guess I don't know. I think I took something from your list that you didn't intend to be read. Either way, I'm sorry for wasting a great deal of time talking in circles.

It's clear we agree on most things, especially that you (generic you this time) shouldn't exclude any AT.

I'm right there with you. I love the concept behind them, and I've given many stalkers very serious attempts, the most noteworthy were a claws/nin, elec/EA, and NB/dark. I've done everything I could to make them powerful, survivable, and enjoyable. I've failed at all three goals on all accounts.

I just can't enjoy an AT that, despite best efforts, will not compare to the same effort given a very similar AT.

Can't argue with that.

I enjoy mine. I think they have that same rush for me that so many people talk about with Blasters. There's something I really like about being dangerous and fragile at the same time, but with Stalkers I can get that and still have mez protection and some self protection besides raging offense.

I definitely feel their flaws, though.

I do have a particular resentment of what happened to the way Regen works on a Stalker once they increased the AT's base HP without increasing the HP cap. Because it dramatically truncates DP's +HP, one of the "business as usual" powers of the Regen powerset is not allowed to improve the base survival of the character as much as it does for Scrappers, or as much as it did for Stalkers at lower base HP. Obviously raising their base HP improved their survivability overall, Regen included, but that HP cap kept Regen from scaling with the HP increase the way every other Stalker secondary did.

I do.

If Stalkers had a SD equivalent, being able to launch 2 massive AoEs that don't break hide + another AoE that has a 50% chance to crit in AoE and a 100% chance to crit the target *is* better burst on average than the equivalent SD melee because a Stalker can make sure to use these powers in conjunction with Hide/placate/BU. The extra burst provided by the AT's inherent will make up for the slight variation in melee mods vs Scrapper while pushing beyond Brute when damage is capped.

Same goes for Fire Armor's Fiery Embrace working specifically *with* the burst abilities of a Stalker.

It's right there. Just transpose those sets to fit Stalker and you'll have your answer.

My personal picks with no context would be:

Tank or Brute: Brute
Defender or Corruptor: Corruptor
Tanker or Scrapper: Different roles, not a comparison
Brute or Scrapper: Scrapper unless we don't already have a Brute/Tanker
Defender or Controller: Controller
Blaster or Scrapper: Whichever one responds to /tell first

But that's not an all-encompassing answer. I don't dislike any of the ATs I didn't pick and I'd be glad to fill my team with them. I don't find them underpowered, I just tend to prefer to build my team in a certain way and I favor certain ATs. Ideally when I fill a team I'd be happy to just fill the entire thing with Corrs and VEATs. Maybe a Brute. Maybe.

The thing is, your comparisons pretty much compare ATs that do different things so there's no constant comparison between them, and which one you take will depend on the situation and the current team build.

Tank or Brute: One does more damage, one survives better. Which does your team need?
Defender or Corruptor: One does more damage, one buffs better. Which does your team need?
Tanker or Scrapper: Do you need a tank or a damage dealer?
Brute or Scrapper: Do you need a pseudotank or a damage dealer?
Defender or Controller: Buffs/damage, or mez/buffs?
Blaster or Scrapper: Pure damage (if your team can support them), or someone more self-contained?

When you compare a Scrapper to a Stalker, what do they do? They each deal damage, and try to not die. They don't manage aggro like a Brute or Tank. They don't mez or team buff (then again, Scrappers do get Shield). Their actions and roles are fairly comparable.

The problem arises because Stalkers are easier to kill, so they lose in the "try not to die" department. That would be okay if, like Blasters, they had super great damage advantages to go with it to justify being easier to kill. But they don't. They lose out on AoEs, and flat out do less damage unless on a large team and surrounded by allies. And even then it's only a small advantage. The burst damage they offer with AS and controlled crits isn't really needed or useful to a team. Teams look for AoE damage (which Stalkers fail at), and good ST DPS for AVs (which Stalkers are either less or only slightly more than Scrappers at). So they lose in the "deal damage" department too.

Scrapper vs Stalker is not some sort of Corruptor vs Defender situation. There are not pros and cons to consider and weigh based on what you feel your team needs. Stalkers are not weak in one aspect but strong in another. They are simply weak. They have only cons. They have no meaningful advantages over Scrappers.

Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.

My L36 Martial Arts/Ninjitsu Stalker (a Vigilante) gets invites regularly on Freedom, even sometimes for TFs. But mostly only from people who whisper first, strangely enough. Can't remember the last time he got a blind invite, which suits me just fine (I absolutely refuse to join when blindly invited, except when I've just broadcasted an LFT, which I almost never do).

Maybe that Stalker, and the others complaining of never getting invites, never participate in conversations in /broadcast (or are unpleasant jerks when they do) or offer polite advice in /help or are afraid of starting teams and just sit there endlessly "Stalker LFT!" instead of taking a little initiative and gathering up the others also LFTing? (like the Stalker who started the LGTF I was on yesterday [man, my frame rate sucked through most of it, and made me useless for the Hamidon portion :/])

Dominators aren't even on your list? I see how it is.

(runs home crying)

Dom or Blaster?

The correct answer is Dom.

My 3 favorite characters are a widow, Plant/Earth/Fire Dom, and DS/Pain/Cold MM.

Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.

Fix'd.

Seriously, I I ever form teams and I find there's a dom come up on my window as not on a team, I'll ask em. More than one? You bet! But they seem to be rare, I'm not often on the same team as one with a dom.

They're just so fun to play and team with...the only one I kinda shake my head at is Gravity doms because they don't cause as much chaos-ownage as your standard dom.

I really wish you were on Liberty.
I have more Doms than anything else. I have at least one of every primary and multiples of a couple of them. I think the AT is just a blast to play. Often I am the only Dom on a team though. I've actually had people tell me they can't play Doms because they have "no survivability powers." I'd like to know what a Control Primary is good for then? Oh yeah, spamming fulcrum-shifted fire cages, I forgot.

I think I'm "that Stalker"... least I was. If you are really interested (if not skip this post), my complaint was probably based on many factors; many of which I freely admit were/are under my control (though I like to think unpleasant jerk isn't a factor). After my vg dwindled down to less than a loyal handful a year or so back (the rest left the game) I was content playing mostly alone helping out others mainly when asked. Then incarnates and the WST arose making teaming more necessary to do SFs/TFs to advance my alpha slot.

I play villains (my choice) on a low population server (my choice) at off peak times (my choice). During the week, 8 level 50 (one team) players not hidden can easily represent well over a third of the eligible people I can see to team with on the server to do the WST. I can tell you from direct observation that at first being a Stalker did not help matters. Being a painful introvert with a fear of rejection didn't help either (I like to stay hidden as a Stalker for a reason). I was discouraged and did say so on the forum.

I'm happy to say after a couple of weeks my situation has improved. I get a lot of repeat business. After doing this Stalker thing nigh on six years people realize I mostly know what I'm doing. Not being an unpleasant jerk does help too. Still not much of an "assemble the team" type though I admit. [edit add: also want to thank those who posted they would be willing to take me on their team].

Anyway, I do not know how many people are/were in the same boat as me. I also don't know how many people are still going to pick any other AT (including Scrapper) over Stalker to team with no matter what. But you are right, a Stalker can overcome it.

If I have a free choice: Neither. There are usually too many melees on the teams anyway. I'd rather fill the team with an extra def/corr/dom/troll. That's what both scrappers and stalkers are: fillers.

My first toon and first 50 was a stalker. I recently gutted her for IOs.

Don't care.

You're here to kill things, can you do that?

You can?

You're in.

All I usually require in a teammate is a player that's not a complete idiot. Very seldom will I ever look for a teammate with a specific AT or powerset. Even when I do it's usually more like "something that can control agro" or "some kind of debuffs" than "I need a Stone tank" or "I need a Rad"

If you want to play a stalker on my team, understand that your job is to KILL STUFF. Your job is NOT to "scout ahead". We don't need to know what's ahead of us, because we already know what's ahead of us: Stuff to kill.

Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately.

See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately.