Stalker or Scrapper on your team?

I've long wanted to grab 7 other people who would all huddle around a stalker, providing no other support, and allow a high end PvE focused build to see what kind of ST DPS is possible against a pylon.

This would go a long way to improving the Stalker's image on the forums, if you could actually see them breaking the barriers set by the top pylon soloing builds.

Is surrounding the character with 7 friends cheating? Who cares.

It's no less false than surrounding yourself with a pack of L54 bosses for perma-soul drain and fully saturated AAO.

Hell, let a tanker or brute taunt the pylon. I just want to see the time a ST Focused top end stalker would be capable of.



You don't need to immediately eliminate the threat, you just need to keep it's attention off the controller - and several ATs and builds are totally capable of this. Brute, Tanker, Scrapper, Dom, VEAT? Hell my Fire/Rad Corr could do this.

This is the point.

It's not that it isn't cute that the stalker can kill or remove that threat a few seconds faster* under the absolute best conditions where teammates are all huddled around, and somehow all of them ignore that boss while the Stalker uses BU > AS - it's that even if you could get all of this to happen regularly the Stalker is competing against a long list of other ATs who can either eliminate the threat, taunt the threat, lock it down or debuff it to hell and back - many of which have a list of useful attributes to a team that completely trounce and trivialize the ability to be hidden and/or placate (neither of which are exclusive to Stalkers btw).

*Can the stalker actually make use of BU > AS to make quicker work of a Boss? Across all Stalker primaries, isn't that like a 5s of just casting time alone?

High end builds across a variety of ATs are easily capable of putting out 1k or more damage over 5s time.

That difference is even lower you factor the 1.0 self buff modifier for Scrappers versus the 0.8 self buff modifier for Stalkers, and the 15% critical rate on some tier 9 and tier 8 attacks for Scrappers. Certain sets like Claws, Dark Melee, Dual Blades, and KM will pull even farther ahead for Scrappers with their perma-duration self buffs. A Stalker probably has no actual damage advantage even with a full team of 8 augmenting their critical rate.

In that situation, you have to critically evaluate the advantage of AoE burst vs AoE DPS. On a team (*looks at the thread title*) where other players have AoEs and you're fighting along side them, which will kill the most foes?

And look I said "kill the most foes" not "does the most damage" because they are not the same. One is a quick 1>2 button press while the other requires 3+ button presses for *possibly* better damage.

I'm willing to guess you're going to take out foes quicker with BU+100% crit Burst.

And they recharge slowly. And it's more likely you'll slot for their effect, recharge or accuracy vs their damage, all things considered.

Indeed, it's a nice trick. But hardly worth choosing a MA scrapper vs a MA stalker. Neither will be doing that much AoE. Remember, 'respectable' doesn't seem to be worth sh*t otherwise people wouldn't still be pigeonholing Stalkers into the 'crap' bin for AoE.

Right. So now join me in poking the devs to have those powersets/combos ported over to Stalkers. Because then that won't be one advantage held over the AT's head. I tend not to add these in the comparison for the very fact that it's only a matter of time.

Because, I'm not blind. Look at Super Strength. It has *ONE* AoE...but it is heralded as being one of the best melee AoE sets.

Why is SS so revered for it's AoE? because it's not the *number* of AoEs you have, but the *quality* of your AoEs. That is, whatever AoEs stalkers get, they can pump them up thanks to always having BU and being able to, on command, do 2x damage on half or more of their targets.

*points to above*

Besides that, pointing out the damage modifiers is only telling part of the story. What's 2x a 1.0 mod again? For AoEs at least...

I touched on that earlier, but yeah, in addition to just the 5% damage advantage in ideal situations, Scrappers also have the following advantages:

* BU is +100% instead of +80% (advantage over all Stalker sets)
* Scrappers get Soul Drain (+220% possible)
* Scrappers get Follow Up (perma +75% possible)
* Scrappers get Blinding Feint (perma +75% possible)
* Scrappers get Power Siphon
* Scrappers get Fiery Embrace
* Scrappers get Against All Odds (up to 68.75% damage)
* Scrapper combos do not rely on BU, Placate, or AS
* Scrappers get Fire Melee
* Scrappers get Shield Charge
* Scrappers get damage toggles (Death Shroud, Blazing Aura, Quills)
* BS, DB, Katana, KM, MA have +1 AoE; Claws has +2
* Numerous powers come earlier (Touch of Fear, Crane Kick, Parry)

Even besides damage advantages, Scrappers get more endurance management options. They get better returns on +HP powers (even ignoring the difference for heals and +regen powers). They have the ability to taunt and draw aggro if they desire. They don't suffer performance-wise from autohits, patches, or AoEs. They have an even and predictable performance regardless of where their teammates are in relation to them.

Stalkers just lack in so many ways that there's a huge gap between what they sacrifice and what they gain for said sacrifices.

Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.

Footstomp is a pretty high quality AOE, but the biggest part of Super Strength's appeal is Rage. Stacking up massive, longlasting damage buffs has a bigger impact than anything else in the set.

Outside of that, it really is the number of AOEs or, more accurately, the number of AOEs you can throw over a given period of time. SS only has one and you can get its recharge down nicely, but ATs with SS have pool options for more AOEs. That's why you see SS/Fire/Mu and SS/Fire/Fire Brutes among the most popular farmers. Those additional AOEs, coupled with double-stacked Rage, makes a big difference in the time spent on each mob.

Footstomp is nice, sure, but it's not really the showstopper in the SS set.

Foot Stomp is great because it has high damage, a huge radius compared to all other PBAoE melee powers, and still gets to stack Rage so you can do +80% to +160% all the time.

You're right that it's the quality of AoEs that matter. Stalkers lose the highest quality AoEs. They're limited to much smaller cones that hit fewer foes for less damage. They also can't have BU (or double BU) up constantly when using those AoEs.

Stalkers lose flat out PBAoEs like Whirling Sword, Spin, Whirling Hands, Dragon's Tail, Typhoon's Edge, and Lotus Drops. Claws also loses the AoE in Eviscerate, and MA loses the bonus crit of Dragon's Tail for another effective 1/3 of an AoE. Some sets like Dark Melee lose out on what minor AoE potential that they might've had. Some are left with zero AoEs period (MA, EM).

Being the quality of the AoEs that matter, Stalkers are not setting any records or doing any amazingly significant AoE contributions with small, narrow cones or minor damage cones like Flashing Steel. The best off sets in this regard are Elec, Spines, and to a lesser extent KM (although that set has low AoE potential regardless of AT, Stalkers didn't lose much). But expecting every Stalker to be Elec because it's the only set that didn't lose an AoE attack is just not an option.

Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.

That's exactly what I meant. Invisibility provides 55', or Stealth + Stealth IO provides 65'. The only time the extra 85-95' of stealth radius matters is when you have to deal with turrets (@ 100') or snipers (@ 149).

I never said that Stalkers were being seen by them, and I've frequently said there's no point in taking Stealth - or especially getting a stealth IO - on a Stalker unless you're building for PvP. Anything that will see you at 150' of stealth ignores any level of stealth you can build up, and the PvE cap is 200' anyway.

Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.

Originally Posted by Brillig It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.

Ah, so we actually agree that it's what you can do with the few AoEs you have and not how many you've got that makes a big difference. Cause a Stalker's ability to stack an 80% dmg buff + a 50% crit on AoEs can really ramp up stuff like Thunderstrike, Throw Spines, 1kcuts, Burst and the like. And before you point out Shadow Maul, Flashing Steel and what have you, let me remind you that my point was how comparitively improved Stalker's AoE burst damage would be when using melee set like Fire Melee, Mace or even the moderate-low dmg Ice melee.

Correct.

Not even close to the damage or area of coverage of Foot Stomp. Nor is BU or hide available every cycle, unlike Rage, which is an easy 80% if not 160%.

Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.

Lol, you're either very dense, being facicious or just plain lack reading comprehension.

I'll just tell you that you're reading it wrong. But if you want me to explain it I will.

If I'm understanding what you said wrong it's only because what you're saying has nothing to do with the argument.

The argument we were having is that Stalkers lack in AoE damage output because they have less AoEs in nearly all their sets. You then chimed in to say Super Strength only has one AoE. Which I guess you meant as, "therefore, any set with only one AoE is as good as Super Strength," which is wrong.

Foot Stomp does 59 damage for a Brute every 20 seconds. It has a huge 15 foot radius and can hit 10 targets. With Rage, a Brute runs around doing 160-210 damage every time. Before Fury, which can raise it to 300. Regardless, Foot Stomp is not the only draw of SS, as Rage has huge benefits for epic attacks.

All the powers you named are not giant 15 foot radius PBAoEs. You will not, in fact, always have BU up, nor Hide. You will not hit as many enemies reliably. You will not have massive damage buffs from an always available Rage.

If your only point is to say that occasionally you can do a big spike damage when all the factors are on your side and do a decent hit in AoE, then yes. But that's not the argument we're having. You're highly deluded if you think a DB Stalker puts out the kind of AoE damage that an SS Brute -- or even a DB Scrapper does. And if that's not the argument you're trying to make, then whatever argument you are trying to make is irrelevant to the discussion at hand anyway.

Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.

Well, at least you admit you didn't understand me then.

I brought up Super Strength, not solely because it has only one AoE, but that it 'makes the best out of that one AoE'. I never said any set with only one AoE is as good as Super Strength, just that you can make up for a lot with proper tools. In SS's case, reliable Rage + Footstomp outputs respectable (or more than respectable) AoE.

That's it.

Don't need to compare fury, stacked rage, crashes or max recharge because that wasn't the initial point.

But just as a hypothetical; Stalkers with BU (probably not getting Rage although it's not like it's counter to the AT's function) + Footstomp out of hide, attack chain then placate + Footstomp. Most things'll probably be dead (on a team) after the 1st Footstomp but you still have another crit FS in your pocket just in case. Are you trying to tell me that that would be sub-par AoE? Adequate?

Oh, but Stalkers will never get Super Strength, you say? What about Ice melee? They'll definitely get Fire melee, I bet. Seriously, I'll bet you right now Stalkers will get it. If you think BU+FE+Fire Sword Circle on a Scrapper was deadly, try doing 2x damage on nearly everything at the same time.

You will if you're specifically trying to AoE burst kill minions/Lts. Any smart Stalker with AoEs and lots of minions to kill will make sure BU, Hide, Placate or all are available every time they need to use their AoEs.

I'll remind you, Dispari, you're responding to *my* points. We *are* having the argument I'm talking about because you're arguing against specifically *my* points.

Actually, I do (the scrapper part, that is). For AoE burst. Using rounded up, simplified math/numbers, Scrapper Dual Blades can get something like 740 AoE dmg from a sweep combo in like 8 seconds or 530 dmg from just BF, Typhoon and Sweeping Strike in 5 seconds. Of course, you could stack BF but that would add another 4+1.2 seconds to that activation for around 600 dmg. Stalker Dual Blades can get 600 dmg from just BU > 1kcuts from hide in less than 5 seconds and over 1000 dmg in 7 sec by adding placate and sweeping strike.

*time would shift up for each respectively when taking into consideration the actual activation time + arcana time.

Ouch... when you list it out like that, Stalker's damage does seem quite inferior.

I do agree that sets like Claw and Dual Blade on Scrapper definitely does more damage because of stacking follow-ups.

The one AT that can benefit so much from Shield Charge = Stalker. But wait, Shield can't be invisible... I don't buy that some shield powers don't work well with stalker because they modified Willpower for Stalker. They can do the same with Shield set if they want to. I guess Shield Charge on Stalker is just very un-assassin like.

Exactly. My Bane can do more burst damage under 10s than most of my Stalkers WHILE providing great resistance debuffs, team defense buffs and survive just as well.

Stalker's biggest problem is that during low levels, Assassin Strike works quite well because other ATs can't do that much damage in 10s (lack of attacks, buffs, set bonuses). However, as you are over lvl 40+, other ATs can dish out very quality damage to the point that Stalker's Assassin Strike is just not needed.

Stalker's effectiveness drops greatly when the content gets much harder. My Claw Assassin Strike + Build Up can't even kill a +2 Longbow Lieut... that seems like a joke to me.

We were talking about Stalkers lacking AoE DPS and AoE powers overall. If you butted into the conversation to run it off on a tangent about hypothetical sets they might one day get or what they do in different circumstances, then there's no point in continuing said argument with you. That's not what we were talking about. So if you want to change the subject and rant about how I "don't understand," go ahead. Whatever point you were trying to make, since it had nothing to do with what we were talking about, I have no interest in discussing.

Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.

Ouch again.. full team critical buff only buffs Stalker to 1.31? That's pretty sad.

Has any Stalker beat a pylon? I read that pylon result thread and I don't recall seeing a Stalker doing it. Maybe they have but with other conditions?

I've tried it with my Kin/Dark. I can't even take out 10% of pylon's health. My lvl 50 db/nin can't either. I don't even bother using my lvl 50 spine/ea.

So the irony is when the REAL threat matters, Stalker is the worst of the 4 melee ATs. Tanker tanks extremely well. Brute can take up both tanking/damage. Scrapper with buffs can deal more damage than Stalker.

Yes, a Stalker's base crit rate is 10%. Each ally adds 3%. So 3 * 7 = 21%, plus the first 10% for 31% total. That depends on all 7 allies on the team being within a 30 foot radius of the Stalker though, not behind walls or any other LOS obstructions.

Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.

Secondaries do not crit.
Also pets don't crit.