Stalker or Scrapper on your team?
By
Auroxis,
Posted on: 2011-02-09 08:37 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
I'm going to say Stalker. Mainly because of that lovely demoralize debuff that comes with every Assassin Strike. High burst damage makes bosses go down a lot quicker. Sure, Scrappers can duke it out with the best of them, but I just find Stalkers a bit more beneficial. While they do deal slightly less damage, the addition of the burst damage and demoralization makes them worth it.
But of course, this is assuming some retarded notion of being forced to choose between the two. I take whoever asks first.
Arc ID: 348998 - Becoming a villain
Arc ID: 373341 - To Save a Hero
Got Inf?
Ill play with both. On my Emp, I can make a Stalker a Tank
On my Widow, Stalkers are fun to skulk with.
Scrappers are just fine whenever.
But play what you like, most people can adapt to playstyles.
Just make sure if you are a stalker or scrapper, that you listen to the advice of your teamates before charging. Same goes with all AT's really, but if a tank charges Ill usually just follow suit
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Does that do anything? I just ran this on my Stalker and I think I must not know how they work.|
Originally Posted by Fleeting Whisper
To be a little bit serious, I think the OP is in the context of the Barracuda SF, in which case only Scrappers and Stalkers get the Power of Captain Mako, to set off the Fail Safe devices.
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So I went in to click the failsafe device, but some perceptive enemy had aggroed on me and stood outside the room shooting at my hidden stalker. Even with good defense, the click time on those things is so long he kept eventually getting a hit in. So after I killed it and ran back in, another 3 guys aggroed on me because I had left the room and they got bored with the rest of the team and decided to go beat on the stalker over there obliterating their buddy Joey the rifleman. But I digress.
Anyway, eventually I was actually able to click the thing. I heard a nifty sound effect. That was it. So I clicked the next one. More cool sound effects, but nothing else happened. I eventually clicked all 4, but saw no result. I am sure I am missing something, but am unaware of what.
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
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Said with no intent to insult, you really were doing it wrong. |
Originally Posted by StratoNexus
Anyway, eventually I was actually able to click the thing. I heard a nifty sound effect. That was it. So I clicked the next one. More cool sound effects, but nothing else happened. I eventually clicked all 4, but saw no result. I am sure I am missing something, but am unaware of what.
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Not the part about getting shot. I've struggled some with that myself. But you really shouldn't just go clicking them willy-nilly. They blast the 5th Column who are in the room, basically one-shotting anything that's further up than about 1/2-way up the stairs. You reserve them when your team is being overwhelmed by the ambushes. There's not much value in chain firing all four, since one will probably clear most of the room, leaving few foes for the subsequent activations to defeat.
Of course it's possible any given team might not need help with the ambushes, in which case activating the panels is pretty much just time spent standing around.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
To reinforce my previous post, Stalker.
Scrappers can do things Stalkers can't.
They usually don't, though. I hate relying on any melee character I don't know.
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Well, I did not click all 4 in a chain. I clicked the first one and my team said nothing happened, so I clicked the 2nd one and they again said nothing happened.|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
Not the part about getting shot. I've struggled some with that myself. But you really shouldn't just go clicking them willy-nilly. They blast the 5th Column who are in the room, basically one-shotting anything that's further up than about 1/2-way up the stairs. You reserve them when your team is being overwhelmed by the ambushes. There's not much value in chain firing all four, since one will probably clear most of the room, leaving few foes for the subsequent activations to defeat.
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Later it got a bit full again so I clicked the third one. I ran out of the room, and it still looked like a whole lot of badguys were there to me. Eventually I also clicked the 4th one and I saw no visible effect, but of course I am in the room so I can't really see. But my team was reporting a lack of any effect to me.
That being said, I got to run it today on my tanker, and when the Stalker used the power, I saw enemies fall over dead. So, it seems to work fine.
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
Why not both? Or perhaps neither? I just want 8 decent players on the tf. Yes, we probably would prefer a debuffer, someone with some heals, a meatshield, some ranged and aoe damage, a shielder of some sort (bubbles, ice or sonic or all three), so if we get all those and we have one spot left.....
I vote stalker. I believe in helping the little guy once and awhile, but it depends on the team build though. Remember, there is no I in team.
TEIAM, wait... problem solved.
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I suspect this is the best answer.|
Originally Posted by BrandX
The one with the better outfit!
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Although... with Hide on, you never know.
That stalker could be sneaking around in their pjs.
>_>
<_<
Is it wrong that I want to bribe Jay into making Surruna a pair of bunny slippers, now?
@Brightfires - @Talisander
That chick what plays the bird-things...
I'll go with the Peacebringer.
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I will say its been hard getting on TFs for incarnate stuff as a stalker. Almost to the point where I want to change him to a hero or something in between so I have more chances at being able to do something. As it stands now no one wants you. The whole stalker buff thing should have been at least the last thing that Castle did before he left. Now we have no one to go to for this kind of stuff and the AT is just going to get worse as everyone else gets better over time.
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Originally Posted by Daemodand
Stalkers really do need to be looked at again. It isn't fair that Scrappers out-damage and out-survive them. Brutes recently had Fury mitigated to keep them from stepping on Scrappers' toes too much, Stalkers need a buff to give them indisputably better damage than Scrappers given how much squishier they are.
P.S. This is another reason why making Incarnate rewards tied to teaming was a bad idea. Some Archetypes and powerset combos really do have a tougher time finding a team, especially in the crucible of the tougher Task Forces. Here's hoping for soloable options in I20. |
Bump and Grind Bane/SoA
Kenja No Ishi Earth/Empathy Controller
Legendary Sannin Ninja/Pain Mastermind
Entoxicated Ninja/PSN Mastermind
Ninja Ryukenden Kat/WP Scrapper
Hellish Thoughts Fire/PSI Dominator
Thank You Devs for Merits!!!!
Scrapper, without going into details what makes me not seek Stalkers. I'll take one if a friend has one or they ask, but I don't search for them. Khelds and Stalkers are the only AT I don't search for when I build a team. Again, I'll take them, but I don't search for them.
I have a Stalker, and she's okay and kind of fun to play, but I won't pretend she's anything special. It's my opinion that Stalkers should flat-out do more damage than Scrappers, unconditionally, all the time, because they're easier to kill. As long as that's not the case, I'll continue not looking for them.
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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If my team needs AoE, Scrapper (Unless its like an Elec/Nin Stalker or something).
If my team needs single target, Stalker (Pity Spot).
Deamus the Fallen - 50 DM/EA Brute - Lib
Dragos Bahtiam - 50 Fire/Ice Blaster - Lib
/facepalm - Apply Directly to the Forehead!
Formally Dragos_Bahtiam - Abbreviate to DSL - Warning, may contain sarcasm
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Originally Posted by Shubbie
Im very good at taking a problem and making it worse.
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So what do you think its going to take to finally get the devs attention to bring stalkers up to par? Sometimes I wish I could go to those dev meet and greets or those comic con things so I could talk so sense into them so they can finally address many of the long standing issues we have had in this game since day 1.
Bump and Grind Bane/SoA
Kenja No Ishi Earth/Empathy Controller
Legendary Sannin Ninja/Pain Mastermind
Entoxicated Ninja/PSN Mastermind
Ninja Ryukenden Kat/WP Scrapper
Hellish Thoughts Fire/PSI Dominator
Thank You Devs for Merits!!!!
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Make the damage they contribute to a team be worthwhile enough for people to care about it. Right now almost all Stalkers (except for outliers) do less AoE damage than any other melee -- in fact, some do no AoE damage whatsoever. They're supposed to excel in ST, but they don't do more damage than Scrappers until they're surrounded by teammates on all sides, and even then, the damage difference isn't enough to offset the fact that they have weak AoE and die easily.|
Originally Posted by EvilRyu
So what do you think its going to take to finally get the devs attention to bring stalkers up to par? Sometimes I wish I could go to those dev meet and greets or those comic con things so I could talk so sense into them so they can finally address many of the long standing issues we have had in this game since day 1.
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If they're supposed to be ST specialists they should be really, really good at it. Right now they're only a tiny bit better than anyone else you could take, with tons of drawbacks.
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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I completely agree; stalkers should be the single target DPS kings.|
Originally Posted by Dispari
If they're supposed to be ST specialists they should be really, really good at it. Right now they're only a tiny bit better than anyone else you could take, with tons of drawbacks.
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To that end, I still push my idea of the "snowball buff."
The longer a stalker attacks a target, the more damage he should do. Make it so every attack against a target grants that target a 30 second "vulnerability to critical hit" debuff. The debuff is minor, like defiance, but after these debuffs have accumulated for 30 seconds, the stalker begins to dish out criticals at an alarming rate. Imagine this concept wise as the stalker striking key points to cripple his target, becoming more familiar with his target, and learning the best spot to strike his foe as he fights.
It benefits the stalker very little to attack minions and LTs, which is the larger portion of the game, as they die too fast for the debuff to really accumulate. Bosses will see some accumulation, while EBs and AVs suffer the most.
Now the stalker serves a purpose on the team. He is the largest source of damage when it comes to fighting the AV.
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
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Except that they still aren't, really: insert force-multiplying AT here.|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
Now the stalker serves a purpose on the team. He is the largest source of damage when it comes to fighting the AV.
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I agree that they should do more damage - single target, at the least - compared to Scrappers at all times, though; it only makes sense given the rationale we were given for lowering the Brute damage cap. Given the ability to split PvE and PvP damage, it wouldn't even affect PvP at all, so "unbalancing them in PvP" can't be used as a viable excuse anymore. But that was almost explicitly ruled out by Castle's last post on the subject, so I'm not expecting to see that happen anytime soon. Or even Soon™.
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
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Hold on, compare apples to apples. With my idea, next to a scrapper, tank, or brute, the stalker will still come out ahead on single target DPS. The whole point of the idea is to give stalkers a reason to trade away their AoE, survivability, and damage when compared to other melee ATs.|
Originally Posted by Siolfir
Except that they still aren't, really: insert force-multiplying AT here.
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Even once force multiplication is on the team, -res and +damage are making those super frequent crits all the more effective.
EDIT TO ADD:
Castle says "They're about as strong as we want to make them" but it doesn't make any sense. Right now you can create a linear chart. The further to the left on this chart is higher survivability, while the further right on the chart is higher offensive capability.
Tankers <> Brutes <> Scrappers
Stalkers don't fit on this chart. They have less survivability than scrappers by a long shot, and they don't have more offensive capability to compensate. That's the problem.
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
These kinds of threads confuse me, because I have never seen a situation in which someone is denied a team based solely on their AT. Every time I see people forming TF's, they are usually saying things along the following lines:
1) LGTF forming, 3 spots open.
2) LGTF forming, need tank
3) LGTF forming, need controls
4) LGTF forming, need damage
When responding to someone advertising to fill a TF, I have never, not even once, been asked what my AT is when I tell them I'll go. Nor have I seen that done to anyone else. Lately I've been running my Warshade as I've decided to make him my "Incarnate Character". Despite all the hatred for Warshades and KB I have seen on the boards over the years I have never been kicked from a team or denied a team when on him. I've also not had anyone gripe about Shadow Cysts when they spawn because he's around. The most I'll ever see is the team leader say "Cyst" in chat and then the team promptly obliterates the damn thing, no fuss no muss.
So where are all these teams that pick and choose specific AT's? They don't appear to be on Liberty.
Honestly, I'd choose based on their name and the little note they set that you can see in the search window. And their info if they're close by.
It's a little shallow, but it's a better experience for everyone on the team if I don't invite someone who never talks or if I don't invite someone who's incredibly rude.
Of course there's no way to properly judge people at a first glance based on these things, but if you're unsure, there's always a fallback.
Take the scrapper.
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They do exist... They're just a little less up front about it.|
Originally Posted by Steel_Shaman
So where are all these teams that pick and choose specific AT's? They don't appear to be on Liberty.
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As I mentioned in my first post upthread, I've been asked in the past if I could bring some other toon along instead of my stalker. More often, though, it's just a matter of TFs or raid teams mysteriously filling up or deciding they "really need more debuff" as soon as I mention the toon's AT. That's never happened to my tanks, scraps or defenders.
Still, as I also noted, it is getting better. I've seen less of that as time has gone on. So... maybe there's hope in spite of that whole "LOL Stalker"-thing?
@Brightfires - @Talisander
That chick what plays the bird-things...
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I suspect they are mostly on Virtue and Freedom, where you can be more choosy about what ATs you pick and still fill a TF team quickly. One advantage on the smaller servers, I think, is that people will take who they can get, learn that the players are good, and seek them out next time.
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Originally Posted by Steel_Shaman
So where are all these teams that pick and choose specific AT's? They don't appear to be on Liberty.
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I had an amusing interaction last night, the channel request was for "anything that can do a speedy LGTF". I had a scrapper on that server that I wanted a Notice for so I responded saying "so anything that can be speedy right?", to make sure a Scrapper was ok, and the response was "Well anything but a Stalker".
I just found that amusing, no other point to this post...
Global = Hedgefund (or some derivation thereof)
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To this, I'd have added Peacebringer.*|
Originally Posted by Deacon_NA
I had an amusing interaction last night, the channel request was for "anything that can do a speedy LGTF". I had a scrapper on that server that I wanted a Notice for so I responded saying "so anything that can be speedy right?", to make sure a Scrapper was ok, and the response was "Well anything but a Stalker".
I just found that amusing, no other point to this post... |
*This post is full of snark. I do not intend to imply that a Peacebringer or a Stalker cannot participate in a Speedy LGTF. I do, however, maintain they are on par with each other for "least valuable AT for a team."
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
Assuming you put gun to my head and forced me to choose...
I would choose the Scrapper every single time. There is nothing the Stalker can reliably do better than a Scrapper and I can't fathom a scenario where I'd be thinking to myself "Man! I could really use a big crit to deal decent damage to that one enemy!" This is especially true in the current state of the game where everybody and their grandmothers have some kind of opening salvo that can effectively kill/disable an entire spawn. The so called "tough targets" people always complain about (like Sappers) are completely marginalized in the world of IOs and the generally high player knowledge thanks to this game being fairly aged and well understood.