Stalker or Scrapper on your team?

It's a pipe dream.

I am currently in the process of dismantling my spines/nin stalker in exchange for a fire/EA brute. Just so I can still enjoy (in many ways superior) stalker like play style yet get s/tf and raid invites. Castle's stalkers are where we want them post was the final straw. The AT is dead to me.

Yeah right, a pb does many things averagely, and that is a feature of it's own.

Underrated power set, I have seen some incredible PBs.

The problem is that it is not ALWAYS Brutes < Scrappers. Dispari said it, "Stalkers should do more damage than Scrappers, ALL THE TIME, because they are easier to kill." Well then, by extension that means that Scrappers should do more damage than Brutes ALL THE TIME, because they are easier to kill. But they don't. Brutes ARE ABLE to do more damage than Scrappers. They can't do it all the time, and Scrappers can't do more damage than Brutes all the time, but that's the truth, no matter how much Brutes complaining about the nerf want to claim otherwise.

So by that logic, Stalkers should do more damage than Scrappers some times, and less damage than Scrappers some times, which they do. Stalkers do more sustained damage than Scrappers when they have 7 allies in melee with them, and when they are facing a single target. You may argue that it's easier for a Scrapper to do more damage than a Brute than it is for a Stalker to do more damage than a Scrapper, but that's just a matter of degree. The circumstances under which a Stalker does more damage just needs to be tweaked so it happens more often.

And I like that "debuff resistance to Critical" idea.

To me, the comparison:

Tanker < Brute < Scrapper < Stalker

is in terms of BURST damage. Tankers can have a lot of burst damage, but they also have very low sustained damage. And their burst damage isn't as high as a Scrapper with the same Power Sets. Brutes are pretty much the antithesis of burst damage, they have to sustain damage just to build it up to a high level. Scrappers are pretty excellent at burst damage, both controlled and random, and Stalkers are the masters of it.

All comparisons about how much damage the meleers do always compare sustained damage exclusively. I don't think I've ever seen anyone try to make a comparison of burst damage.

I tend to agree. As I said above, I have a Stalker. She's 32. I fiddle with her sometimes, but I won't pretend she's a great character. Every time I look at her I think about how she's inferior to my Brutes, Scrappers, and Widow in every way. I could build her up and IO her out, but that investment would be better placed into a better melee AT.

I can't pretend to assume I know exactly what's right for the class or could balance them immediately. But if I was in charge the first thing I'd do would be to make Stalker base damage 1.125 and their self-buffs enough that Build Up does +100% instead of +80%. And then see where that puts them.

Unfortunately, as you say, it seems the devs are happy with how unpopular Stalkers are.

Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.

I have seen some incredible PBs as well. In fact, my first MoSTF was done with a human/dwarf who off-tanked for me. It worked out really well.

But the truth is I'd have been better off with a brute or scrapper in that spot. They survive more and deal more damage, even from range. The brute will hold aggro better than the PB, and the scrapper will too if he's invuln, shield, or WP.

Again, my point has never been that PBs (or stalkers) are not worth the spot on a team. I'm not saying they are incapable of great things. I am saying, though, that anything else is the better option.

The thing to remember about the self buff is that with a Critical, a self buff of 80% becomes a self buff of 160%. Criticals multiply damage buffs, instead of just stacking with them as other damage buffs would. A Scrapper can Crit on a Build Up, but only has a 5% chance of it happening, while a Stalker is in complete control of that. (And I would guess that the average Stalker uses BU+Critical at least 90% of the time)

Raising damage to 1.125 I wouldn't have a problem with, but I consider it less likely than the devs increasing the frequency of non-controlled Criticals.

An interesting point. I can conjecture two reasons for that.

1) Sustained damage as a function of time is easier to calculate and create meaningful comparison with the analysis of other forumites. Burst damage would require an arbitrary timeframe to appropriately calculate, and relies on lots of factors like Build Up, Aim, and short-term buffs. Many more variables could reasonably be brought into play.

2) It seems to me that burst damage just isn't as important against hard targets in a game like this. Against EBs and AVs most burst damage is really negligible in the overall scheme of things - AS will shave off a little chunk of their health, and then they'll keep fighting right along as if nothing had happened to them. Against Minions and LTs, what you want is burst AoE damage because, outside of annoying specialists, AS'ing one LT isn't going to make much difference.

Now, I'd actually like to see a burst AoE damage comparison at some point, but for purposes of our discussion here, Stalkers in general are going to be weaker in burst AoE than Scrappers, and for that sacrifice they gain in single-target burst damage, which is something the game doesn't really reward much.

I disagree. Currently, a brute cannot do more damage than the comparable scrapper.

Example: a fire/shield brute is going to do more AoE damage than a BS/WP scrapper. That's not a fair comparison. Apples to apples, a fire/shield to a fire/shield, the scrapper wins.

Scrappers already get 100% with 1.125 and 5-15% crit rate (10-15% on targets that actually matter) and it's not a problem. This would be Stalkers getting 100% with 1.125% and 10-31% crit rate. It wouldn't be massive insanity or anything.

As far as them using BU before controlled criticals like AS or their t9 -- good for them. That's what they should be doing. Stalkers suck at AoE and they die easier. Why shouldn't they be able to hit stupidly hard once in a while? Doing a one-shot for far more damage isn't going to improve their performance on minions and lieutenants who already die in one hit right now. It's going to improve their performance against significant targets, where it's actually wanted, and will actually make people interested in bringing them.

Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.

But not ALWAYS. With only one target, the Brute will do more damage.

(Of course, the Brute will have to have 75% Fury with only one target, but really, it only needs to be higher than 60% for him to outdamage the Scrapper)

You can find a condition under which the Scrapper will do more damage, yes, and it may even be the most common condition. But as long as Fury "caps" at a higher damage than the Scrapper, you can't say the Scrapper will ALWAYS do more damage. Apples to apples.

TBH, they should probably lower Brute and Scrapper damage, rather than raise Stalker damage. But that is not likely to happen either.

I'd rather devs take the path of least resistance. Balance one class instead of two (or even more than two if there starts to become a problem between them and Tankers, or them and Blasters). In some cases the path of least resistance means nerfing. In this one it would mean buffing.

Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.

Ok. How? I haven't seen any math to say otherwise.

EDIT: Borked my math.

Again, it's not the Crit rate that is the issue. It's that a Stalker can, at will, follow a Build Up with a Critical on demand. A Scrapper cannot do that. Ever.

And before you say, "Using Placate will add even more to your animation time, reducing your DPS" remember that you are getting a 160% bonus to damage on top of double the base damage. Three slotted, with no other damage bonuses on you that's 275% damage (almost three times) for an additional 2.67 seconds animation time. Unless your attack is less than 1.5 s cast time you're coming out ahead.

With a 100% damage bonus, that would be 300%. Not that much more, sure, but you're already getting 127.5% more than the Scrapper with the same Build Up.

0.75 with +150% is not 1.125. You multiplied by 1.5 didn't you? That means you're multiplying by 150%, not +150% (the difference is the plus). IE, you're only adding 50%. You have to consider base damage too. So you do 0.75 * 2.5 = 1.875

Or if it's easier for you:
0.75 (base) + 0.75 ( 100% extra) + 0.375 (50% extra) = 1.875

You have to add in the damage from enhancements before directly comparing those numbers, though, since that sways it some toward Scrappers. But Brutes still pull ahead around 60% fury.

Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.

Which to me is totally fine, because the Stalker has less AoE potential and is easier to kill. He's not going to be killing minions and lieutenants faster. It's going to give him an edge on bosses, EBs, and AVs. Where his current performance is only a tiny bit better than a Scrapper. Giving them a big perk here like allowing them to do a huge spike of damage before they resort to standard DPS (in which they'd have a minor edge still), would make them more useful to a team.

BU -> AS -> Placate -> t9 with the numbers I mentioned would be pretty great burst damage. And, shockingly, would actually allow Stalkers to do what they're sort of supposed to be doing, in a way that would actually be noticeable and desired by a team. Let them be the kings of ST. They suck at everything else.

Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.

This was, I believe, Castle's figures, based on the Crit rate of a Scrapper being the average between 5% and 10%, or 7.5%:

Scrapper = 1.125*(1+0.95)*(1.075) = 2.358
Brute = 0.75*(1+0.95+1.5) = 2.587

As you can see, the Brute does more damage than the Scrapper at 75% Fury. Even if we take the Scrapper at a 10% Critical rate against Lts and Bosses:

Scrapper = 1.125*(1.0.95)*(1.1) = 2.413

And the Brute still has the higher damage.

The break even point is at about 60% Fury:

Brute = 0.75*(1+0.95+1.2) = 2.363

So as long as you are maintaining at least 65% Fury, a Brute is outdamaging a Scrapper solo.

Now, on a team the Scrapper pulls ahead because his damage buffs add to his 1.95 Damage slotting, and multiply by his 1.125 base and his Criticals, while the Brutes damage buffs are stacked with his Fury and only multiply by a 0.75 base. So once the Brute starts getting damage buffs from his team he quickly falls behind. But with no buffs from the team and only minor self buffs (not scaled to the number of opponents) a Brute with 75% Fury will very likely be doing more damage than the Scrapper.

If the Stalker teammate buff were stronger, or scaled to allies that were further away, this could be very much the way the Stalker worked, too. Solo, the Scrapper would do more damage, but the Stalker would pull away on a larger team. Unfortunately (or perhaps fortunately) since both Stalkers and Scrappers Critical, the contribution from teammates effects them equally. Their damage will remain in proportion to each other no matter how much teammates buff them.

It's actually kind of a curve IIRC. Outside of some fringe cases (sets that have significant self-contained +DMG buffs), a Brute vs Scrapper always has the Brute leading. Add some moderate damage buffs and the Scrapper pulls ahead. Then somewhere near the end with high damage buffs, Brute leads and eventually as both are capped, wins again.

Then again, Brute damage cap changed recently so that may no longer be true. Oh well. Your basic point remains true.

Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.

Well, I agree, but I'm pointing out the way I think the devs are thinking. First of all, Stalkers are NOT that much easier to kill. They have 10% fewer hit points. That's it. They can't get buffed to higher protection like a Brute can, and they can't buff their hit points very far, but otherwise they can be defensively buffed as well as a Scrapper can. Yes, they're fragile, as fragile as a Scrapper is compared to a Brute, but that doesn't make a Scrapper fragile.

Second, any time you can leverage a force multiplier to combine it with another force multiplier, that's when the devs get cautious. Often, overly cautious. Another example is the Sniper attacks Stalkers get, their animation time and damage base seem ridiculous, until you fact in that you can Crit them from Hide.

A straight, across the board raise in base damage, coupled with a decrease in Crit rate from 10% to 5% would produce pretty much the same numbers, but I think it would worry the devs more. For one thing, it is more consistent and less random. For another thing, well, it would just make the Crit characteristics of the Stalker equal to that of the Scrapper.

I'm not saying that Stalkers don't need something to compensate them for their lack of AoE damage. Which is as much a limitation of the design as a conscious choice on the part of the devs. But I'm not sure that simply making them the masters of single target damage is the solution, or that the devs are even willing to go that route. A base damage or +dam modifier boost wouldn't emphasise their single target damage anyway, it would raise their AoE damage as well, but only for those Stalkers that have it. So it would make things worse for the Stalkers that lack AoE at this time.

Perhaps instead, Build Up could raise the chance of Critical, or raise the damage that the Critical does in some way. Honestly, it would be neat to have a Critical do the 2.8x damage of an Assassin Strike if you lead in with a Build Up. Perhaps this could be a "proc", similar to the way Fiery Embrace is currently working.

Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.

The difference is internalized +damage buffs-- cycling Build Up, Blinding Feint, Follow Up, etc. These heavily favor the Scrapper and put it well ahead of the Brute when it comes to damage comparisons. The comparison is flawed if you ignore self buffs and their disproportionate affect on Scrappers.

You kinda acknowledged it, but things like Build Up which may only have a 33% up time in constant DPS comparisons can easily have something like a 45% uptime in actual combat given the way that spawns melt in this game. Build Up recharging between spawns while Fury decays is a swing in favor of Scrappers.

Regarding Stalkers, I am really beginning to think they need to bring something more to a team-- something other than DPS. I wonder if Assassin Strike could somehow allow allies to critical on a hard target for a narrow window? It would be pretty sweet of the Stalker increased the burst damage of the entire team...

It's actually much more than that in the self-defense department. It's not just the base HP (but base HP does matter fairly significantly, especially among melee ATs due to the way it affects heals and regen).

It's also the max HP. Stalkers have an abysmally low max HP cap. It's only 33.5% higher than their base. That means they can hit their HP cap with unslotted powers like HPT and Dull Pain, and miss out on a significant portion of mitigation through higher HP. Brutes can more than double their base HP. Mine runs around with over 3000 HP. A Stalker can't do that. Not even close.

Plus, each secondary set loses a power for Hide. In some cases this doesn't really impact survival such as Regen losing an endurance power (then again Regen loses regen, heal, and +HP). But in other cases this means things like less resistance or less defense.

Anyway, I'm just ranting semantics. In my head a Stalker is between a Scrapper and a Blaster. They're not as durable as a Scrapper, so logically they should just flat out do more damage. Or in the very least, if they're forced into the specialty of doing ST DPS, they should be really good at it. Right now, they're fairly underwhelming and not a popular teaming AT. I suppose though the devs are okay with that as long as they're a popular soloing AT (which could be the case).

Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.

Yep, I said that. These numbers are primarily for solo comparison. And of course the Brute has to build up the Fury in order to take advantage of the higher damage than the Scrapper.

No, honestly I think Brutes are just fine. A lower damage modifier would just make them even weaker on a team. Reducing the effect of Fury would make them less, well, Brutish. The fact that they CAN, solo, or in a non-offensively balanced team, beat the damage of a Scrapper simply means that they can take on the role of a Scrapper when needed, and not struggle solo. No one passes over a Scrapper because "sometimes a Brute does more damage".

OTOH, the argument, "sometimes a Scrapper does more damage" shouldn't be so much an argument against Stalkers, either. If it were more commonly the case that the Stalker does more damage, I certainly think that would be better. On the other hand, I still see folks insisting a Stalker NEVER does more damage than a Scrapper, just like Brutes supposedly NEVER to more damage than a Scrapper.

IMHO it's not necessary for the Stalker to always do more damage, just to do more damage where the Stalkers specializes. It doesn't bother me that the Stalker doesn't do more sustained damage, because I don't believe the Stalker is supposed to specialize with sustained damage. OTOH, if sustained damage is all that is important to a team, then the Stalker needs to either find a way to contribute, or contribute something else.