Character Conception :: Not A GOD
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2011-02-02 16:55 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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And Pandora's box is linked to the Well, right?
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Originally Posted by RadDidIt
Our "powers," regardless of mutation or technology, were released when they opened Pandora's Rhomboidal Container of Happy Fun Stuff... after they drank from the Well.
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BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
Just because a character is an Incarnate doesn't make them a god, it just makes them better than they were before.
My Claws/SR is a Natural character. She started with homemade claws and the training and perception to see things slowed down when danger is about and her adrenaline starts flowing. As she leveled, she outgrew the street-crime fighting and moved onto higher level targets in her personal war against crime.
Can she solo an AV? Yes. Does that make her a god? No.
It makes her a highly trained crime-fighter. I view her Incarnate powers as newly discovered abilities from her months and years of fighting crime day-in and day-out.
All Incarnate means is that you draw power from the gods. Wonder Woman drew power from the gods. Captain Marvel drew power from the gods. Yes, those two examples are powerful, but they aren't gods, and they are mortal. (Captain Marvel even says so, "World's Mightiest Mortal")
I expect that there may be some players that balk at the idea of their "Superior Human" concepts using Incarnate powers. My own Batman homage, Bloodwolf, believes that "absolute power corrupts absolutely" and keeps an eye on the other superheroes expecting them to go bad. To accept such power himself, to fight such power, would to him be much like selling his soul to the devil. On the other hand, would he do that, faced with a threat that he couldn't defeat otherwise? It's a dilemma that is at the very heart of being a superhero. How far are you willing to go to save lives? How do you uphold your ideals when you are forced to either sacrifice one or the other?
I will probably go with the folks who are saying that it is possible to use Incarnate energy to power technological devices or the like. So you're not using it directly, just retrofitting your weaponry.
Ultimately, the choice is still yours to stop playing your character at 50 and start over with a new character. No one's forcing you to play the new content.
I don't see it as making them Gods. I will however most likely only run one or maybe two Incarnates since I am not going to jump though all these hoops repeatedly. I'll go back to alts. I still have a few ATs I haven't soloed to 50 yet. Getting closer though. . .
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You can't please everyone, so lets concentrate on me.
Meh... at this point I generally ignore CoH lore for most of my characters, so the Incarnate stuff is just another game mechanic. For three of my four 50s I completely ignore the whole "Well of Souls" nonsense because it doesn't fit their backstories at all. They aren't Fantasy characters, so magical mumbo-jumbo is irrelevant to their concepts. So basically the Incarnate bonus is just them getting better at their jobs.
I loathe that I have to do that, because I'd much rather have the stories be vague enough to let us choose how they apply to our characters.
The Alt Alphabet ~ OPC: Other People's Characters ~ Terrific Screenshots of Cool ~ Superhero Fiction
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Natural can mean many things to many people. |
Originally Posted by Jophiel
Unless you're stuck explaining your natural character fighting a Malta Titan?
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To me, it means that you're essentially normal, but you're not necessarily restricted to just using what's on hand. So, in the Malta Titan example, you could be, as one person said, tearing/damaging key components, even using special equipment to help defeat this one enemy.
And yes, this is where you make the argument that the character is then a technology origin. And you could be right. But that is not how I define technology origin--to me, the Tech Origin character has to rely solely on his tech, whereas the natural can make use of such things, but rely mostly on his own skills. (This is what I mean by not trying hard enough to make something work within a concept.)
And lest we forget, Superman is a natural origin too.
But, judging by how the OP has yet to come back and respond, my guess is he's either trolling or venting. So the whole issue is moot.
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I must admit, I've always wanted to see a variation on Martial Arts where in addition to your basic punches and kicks, you did things like leap onto a foe, plant a grenade on him, and leap off. Martial Arts itself would then be for the SUPERHUMAN martial arts, like Iron Fist. Honestly, though, Ninjitsu plus Martial Arts kind of covers this, although you still have to use your imagination when going up against armored and robotic foes.
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Originally Posted by Stone Daemon
To me, it means that you're essentially normal, but you're not necessarily restricted to just using what's on hand. So, in the Malta Titan example, you could be, as one person said, tearing/damaging key components, even using special equipment to help defeat this one enemy.
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Exactly. The game mechanics aren't varied enough to show what some of my characters are doing, like my Natural Dual Blades guy is essentially doing a combination of gymnastics and parkour to get to a Titan's vulnerable spot to slice and dice control cables and hydraulic hoses. On the other hand, my Martial Arts guy wears homebuilt armor enhanced with alien technology to basically just punch Titans in the robotic nads.
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Originally Posted by Arilou
Unless you, you know, ignore the visual (because I know MY characters don't punch using the exact same move amillion times
) and what you're doing is in fact climbing up the back of the Titan, unscrewing an armour plate and start tearing out cables. |
The Alt Alphabet ~ OPC: Other People's Characters ~ Terrific Screenshots of Cool ~ Superhero Fiction
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*explodes in a gibfest from not dodging the thrown glass*|
Originally Posted by ketch
What is a god? A miserable little pile of secrets!
Enough! Have at you! |
Game Over
Press 'R' To Try Again
As for the endgame having things that a 'normal' human couldn't survive, you'd have to question what's 'normal'.
Paragon Citizens are incredibly resilient, my Merc MM once slowed down a whole group of civilians and everyone, Soldiers, Spec Ops, Commando and my MM fired hundreds of bullets into them, and they were registered hits as there were marks of them being shot, but not one of them died despite none of them wearing any kind of armor or showing any signs of being protected.
And heck, if you want to say a normal human couldn't survive the late game battles, then you'd be hard pressed to have a normal human survive the first 5 levels! Sure, a person can survive being shot, or being hit by a shotgun's blast IF they're wearing bodyarmor, but if you're not then the first shotgun blast to hit you will probably kill you. And if not then you'll be in the hospital for quite a while to heal up, even more if any bones are broken, then months of therapy to get yourself back to fighting condition. Then after all that and you continued your Hero career, you'd probably be the most scarred and probably crippled Hero around by the time you get to level 10.
I sit in my zen of not being able to do anything right while simultaniously not being able to do anything wrong. Om. -CuppaJo
It is by caffeine alone that I set my mind in motion. It is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed, the hands acquire shaking, the shaking becomes a warning. It is by caffeine alone that I set my mind in motion.
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Honestly, I'm only marginally "into" the canon explanations of any in game mechanic. They tend to feel corny and hackneyed. Power proliferation and AE being amongst the worst offenders and mechanics like leveling, med porters and influence amongst the better. Either way, I tend to ignore those structural elements and make concepts that feel as "comic book-y" as possible.|
Originally Posted by The_Alt_oholic
I guess the real question is "anyone out there that is willing to stick by their character conception and not have a character become an Incarnate based on that character conception (... unless it was part of their orginal character conception to be a "god" or become a "god" when the character was created)?"
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My simpl answer to your question is "Nope. Everyone that gets close enough to become an incarnate will."
The longer answer: I'm not too into the storyline about being touched by gods. It far from fits most of my characters. BUT this is yet another system, similar to inventions, that allows me to make some pretty severe concepts, some of which are not as forgiving to play. The more playable each severe concept becomes, the more fun they become. I had over half a dozen non-stamina (non fitness at all actually) characters prior to inherent fitness. I wouldn't have given up their extra power choices for stamina, but I do welcome the change now that everyone gets fitness. Similarly, I welcome with open arms and eager mouse clicks the range of customization that the incarnate system permits.
Ok lots of speculation. Also possible spoilers.
Before Statesman and Recluse drank from the well, it was a "dark age". People with power still existed, Lady Gray and Possibly Nemesis, but the golden age of power from before was gone for some reason.
Where did the power go? We know from Ross' arc that power never dissappears, so what does that mean? We know the power exists and it's not being used so it must be somewhere. Enter the cave where the well was located. In the cave there was a box, supposedly Pandora's box. It contained the creativity of the past millenia. The release of this creativity is what gave power to the heroes of this new age of power.
Pretty story, but how does it translate to the game world? Assume creativity is a pretty name for power. That the box would contain all the power that was in existance prior, which is then released to the world once again.
Now I like that idea, but to be honest there are too many holes. So what if creativity just meant creativity? The power was always out there, it just wasn't being used by the majority of the population. Creativity is released, and more people are inspired to channel existing power in some way or another.
So, people are inspired to channel this existing power in various ways. These methods are our origins. Power sources are irrelevent, what matters is how the power is channeled. Take the Ross arc. There a lot of power is transfered to the player temporarily. The player has more power to channel through their tech/magic/ability, but they dont need to become the original user of the power. They remain themselves, just a version of themselves with a much greater level of power.
Now take the STF. The web is intended to siphon the power of the others and give it to Recluse. People still have the ability to channel the power, however, the power doesn't exist for them to use after the web is activated.
So it seems that in game, there are two things that are needed for powers, a source of power and a method to use the power. Without both, people have nothing.
Origin is irrelevent. It is simply the method that is used to channel power. Rikti never used magic before, but because of their weaknesses they decided to learn how to use power in a magical way. The circle of thorns repeatedly attempt to siphon power from other origins in the same type of way Recluse tried to take power from other powered individuals. Quite possibly attacking the way people can channel power, leaving more power for them to use.
How does this tie in to the well? The well isn't an origin. It isn't a method for channeling power. The well is simply a source of power. How your character uses the power is entirely dependant on them. That is at least for the slow path. Perhaps the quick path fills a person with an incredible ammount of power, and controls how they use it. It would explain why the power used by one "quick path" incarnate is similar to a previous version. I.E. Statesman and Imperious. It would also be a step to explaining why the well is capable of taking over the quick path incarnates.
As for Natural characters doing things beyond what is possible for a "regular person", why can't a regular person possess a large ammount of power? Why can't my natural origin character look at that giant robot, say "I am the <Censored> Batman!", and after an epic struggle come out on top? Juking and jumping, targeting vital mechanism's in a "oooh this looks important" way, and in the end the machine drops and the day is saved.
Anyway, my Regular person, natural origin, character is going to be an incarnate for sure. Skillgap is my new praetorian, the praetorian William Valance, and he's a MA/Shield. The incarnate system is just more power for him to put behind his techniques. He wont be a God, just very good, which will work with his, more special, techniques.
Murphys Military Law
#23. Teamwork is essential; it gives the enemy other people to shoot at.
#46. If you can't remember, the Claymore is pointed towards you.
#54. Killing for peace is like screwing for virginity.
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This is about how I see the OP, and yeah, I have a few characters I'll never touch the Incarnate arcs on for concept reasons. My Thugs/Poison MM, for example. She's beaten up Recluse and all that, but at the end of the day, she's a street punk who happens to know how to make some potent chemicals. Phenomenal Cosmic Power is a little out of her reach. (Ironically, she's probably my most powerful character mechanically.) She is, pretty much, a B-Lister as far as raw power goes. A lot of my characters belong there: They're not Galactus or Superman or Darkseid. They're the Joker, or Spider-Man, or even Calendar Man.|
Originally Posted by rian_frostdrake
That said, one concept i have seen floating around that seems related to the initial question is "how many people purposely try to keep their characters "street level" powerful?" lets face it, if your character was able to drop the chronos titan solo or in a small group, you aint luke cage anymore, you are darn-near doctor strange by the time you are smashing rularru aspects. A close friend of mine actually has lamented the fact that really after you get to the upper levels, you are simply presented as one seriously powerful character, way beyond what could be believably considered normal but well trained in any real sense, you take on walking tanks head-on and win. now obviously being a incredibly powerful character fits the general superhero theme, and fits a lot of our themes, but i can sympathize with someone trying to just be a tough urban hero who suddenly is clearing rooms filled with behemoth overlords, entities who by both name and appearance would be terrifying opponents for groups of highly trained and well equipped humans, and you are vaporizing them en masse, that doesnt really vibe well.
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I do have a handful who I consider on the upper end of the power or potential scale, though. So far, only one of those is an incarnate: Liora Kate, who thinks Recluse is thinking small with the Web and plans to make her own to become undisputed ruler of Earth. Also Sorrow-Weave, who thinks she's the daughter of an aspect of Rularuu (protip: she's wrong) and intends to seize as much power as she can to make daddy proud, and Silverbuilt, formerly-human liquid nanobot swarm who is big on the whole self-improvement thing and is just waiting to convert the entire planet into computronium to run her brain on. ... come to think of it, I just realized that all of my characters I see getting amazingly powerful in years or decades are villains. I guess I tend to keep my heroes more human-relatable. Well, that, and a drive for power is a pretty big villain theme.
Having Vengeance and Fallout slotted for recharge means never having to say you're sorry.
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One origin.|
Originally Posted by Dante
I think a few of us roleplayers had a small meltdown about the Well lord when the Incarnate system was first announced. Certainly a lot of us didn't like there suddenly being this 'ultimate source of all our powers' after several years of playing self made characters.
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One will.
One Well.
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Sphere of destruction's still expanding here.
Meben, 38 Kat/SR NPK Stalker (Defiant)
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Actually, they've made a point of distancing the Incarnate system from the original idea of it being the power of the gods - it's now just an undefined source of power, and it doesn't have to be a a magical/fantasy source of pwoer at all.
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Originally Posted by Ironik
Meh... at this point I generally ignore CoH lore for most of my characters, so the Incarnate stuff is just another game mechanic. For three of my four 50s I completely ignore the whole "Well of Souls" nonsense because it doesn't fit their backstories at all. They aren't Fantasy characters, so magical mumbo-jumbo is irrelevant to their concepts. So basically the Incarnate bonus is just them getting better at their jobs.
I loathe that I have to do that, because I'd much rather have the stories be vague enough to let us choose how they apply to our characters. |
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
It's pretty clear that Statesman is an Incarnate of Zeus.
Zeus being an Olympian god in mythology.
Incarnate is pretty much a human form.
So an Incarnate of Zeus is Zeus in a human body.
Statesman being like Jesus in this manner (according to the Bible in regards to Jesus). Jesus being the incarnate of God in the act of being the son of God simulaneously. (I'm not trying to argue this point. I'm simply pointing this out for reference.)
As a personification of Zeus, Statesman may be mortal, but still is a god as he "is" Zeus incarnate.
Its not really hard to understand.
Regardless of how you want to play it, as soon as the Well of Souls was involved to grant you Incarnate abilities, they are granting your character "the power of a god or gods" and they have become the Incarnate of that "god or gods".
You can't have Incarnate abilities and not be an Incarnate.
It's pretty strait forward.
I'm sure it will anger people, but there it is. I'm not trying to dis on people that are trying go avoid this fact, but, clearly, if you run the content to get the powers, that's where they came from.
"Character conception" is fairly widely known to be a term used for the "idea behind" a character. Their background, why they do what they do, backstory, etc. It's used by writers all the time, and it is used in RPG manuals quite frequently when discussing character development. I am using it in that manner. A fairly standard usage of that term even here in these forums.
Really, I'm just asking who is going to "stick to their guns" in regards to their character conception and not become an "incarnate/god".
If you take the alpha "Incarnate" slot, you are becoming an "incarnate/god" regardless of character conception and if you like it or not.
I was pretty clear in my question, but people will always try to "skirt around the edges".
I'm not asking IF you will become a "god".
I'm saying who's going to stick to charater conception and not take Incarnate slots because it wasn't part of their character conception to "become an Incaranate" aka a personified god?
I see no reason for any of my current characters to "become personified god(s)".
I can see people wanting to play Thor, Hercules, etc. which have been super-heroes in comics - well, gods that were superheroes in comic.
I, however, didn't and don't intend on making gods/incarnates as superheroes in this game.
I was trying to find out who thought the same way that wouldn't do Incaranate content because it meant they would be becoming an Incarnate (regardless of trying to avoid the fact that by getting Incarnate powers that they will be becoming an Incarnate).
I wasn't trying to find out who would make excuses as to why getting Incarante powers wouldn't be making you an Incarnate.
Oh, well.
Some people just like to post about anything. Nothing new there.
Some people will avoid the question and just post what they want to post. Nothing new there either.
But the orginal question and point of this thread still stands.
I know my characters aren't meant to become "Incarnates/gods".
I'm not losing out. I'm playing super-heroes (and villains, etc.)
That's why I'm playing the "super" MMORPG and not the "I'm an Incarnate/god" MMORPG.
City of Incarnates? Wouldn't have bought it.
I'm not trying to dis on anyone that wants to play a character that would have them, who wants to make excuses for why their character(s) have Incarnate powers that aren't Incarnate powers, or anyone that created a character that they would never have considered being an Incarnate and are becoming one simply because the content is now availible for that character to become an Incarnate/god.
Is anyone playing a super that will stay a super instead of becoming an Incarnate/god (by gaining Incarnate content abilities) because it isn't part of that character's conception to become an Incarnate/god?
It's really not that tricky of a question.
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Then probably should have been posted in player questions? Anyhow, looks like the simple answer is no.|
Originally Posted by The_Alt_oholic
It's really not that tricky of a question.
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Oh, well.
Always remember, we were Heroes.
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Originally Posted by BrandX
I don't know. So far I haven't seen anything except the first mission of the incarnate arc, that makes one seem like a god.
I just continue to imagine my main as being as a SG member put it "a combination of Spider-Man and Wolverine"  |
A combination of Spiderman "Has the ability to sense attacks before they happen" and Wolverine "Can heal from anything" would be a god.
Brawling Cactus from a distant planet.
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Threads are like children: You create them, try to give them a good start, set them in a direction and where they go from there is anyone's guess. No sense in getting ruffled about it.
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Originally Posted by The_Alt_oholic
Some people just like to post about anything. Nothing new there.
Some people will avoid the question and just post what they want to post. Nothing new there either. |
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No. Nor is it at all hard to understand that it's not how it's presented in the game. You're getting hung up on the words and existing examples, and completely ignoring what you're actually told in Ramiel's arc.|
Originally Posted by The_Alt_oholic
It's pretty clear that Statesman is an Incarnate of Zeus.
Zeus being an Olympian god in mythology. Incarnate is pretty much a human form. So an Incarnate of Zeus is Zeus in a human body. Statesman being like Jesus in this manner (according to the Bible in regards to Jesus). Jesus being the incarnate of God in the act of being the son of God simulaneously. (I'm not trying to argue this point. I'm simply pointing this out for reference.) As a personification of Zeus, Statesman may be mortal, but still is a god as he "is" Zeus incarnate. Its not really hard to understand. |
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Is anyone playing a super that will stay a super instead of becoming an Incarnate/god (by gaining Incarnate content abilities) because it isn't part of that character's conception to become an Incarnate/god? It's really not that tricky of a question. |
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
So basically, you're asking if anyone is deliberately not going to do the Incarnate content because it would violate their concept of not becoming 'godlike'. Ok, I think I get it.
I reckon the number who won't will be very small, like those who lock their characters at a certain level. The game scales threat to ability so just as Statesman wouldn't be seen dealing with Hellions, a level 5 Scrapper isn't 'meant' to be fighting Carnies. The people who do that are going to be fairly dedicated to their concept.
To do that means deliberately excluding yourself from content on that character and although there will be some who refuse to go Vigilante to explore the Isles, I doubt there will be many who will lock themselves out of the Incarnate system as it's more content for their 50s to explore. Some people will do it I'm sure. A friend of mine was so dedicated to his Natural Origin archer that he never took a travel power or any form of armour from his APP.
Of course all of this depends entirely on whether you see the Incarnate content as being associated with gods which it seems that you do. I pretty much refuse to be railroaded into such a poor storyline hence why I use different explanations for my characters' Incarnate abilities. It won't be the first time I've ignored game lore, I'm sure it won't be the last.
@Dante EU - Union Roleplayer and Altisis Victim
The Militia: Union RP Supergroup - www.themilitia.org.uk
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That's not how I read it. All of the lore on the GR site and Ramiel's arc indicates that you get some sort of magic turbo boost. That's why you can just walk all over those ubermenschen in that "Ouroboros in flames" mission. Some of my characters I've created with the game's backstory in mind, so it's not a big deal. For some of them, though, getting magical steroids doesn't sit well with their concepts.|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Actually, they've made a point of distancing the Incarnate system from the original idea of it being the power of the gods - it's now just an undefined source of power, and it doesn't have to be a a magical/fantasy source of pwoer at all.
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It's similar to the "evil clone" arc in Talos (I forget the contact's name) -- he's not cloning my robots, so I just ignore it. I've actually become quite adroit at doing that throughout the game, to the point where it's second nature now and I just mentally edit things out on the fly.
The Alt Alphabet ~ OPC: Other People's Characters ~ Terrific Screenshots of Cool ~ Superhero Fiction
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I don't remember seeing the words "magic" or "gods" anywhere during Ramiel's arc - the nearest is in the cutscene, where it says Incarnates are "godlike beings" - but it then says that "Links to the Well appear throughout the universe, choosing the most powerful. It has many names and many forms." - it's just presented as a vague cosmic power source, not as something that's magical.
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Originally Posted by Ironik
That's not how I read it. All of the lore on the GR site and Ramiel's arc indicates that you get some sort of magic turbo boost.
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
Well, I guess I know what to do the next time someone asks if I'm a god.
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Hmmm...dodging like and cortorting body like Spider-Man (can be blind-sided, is just very agile), while using blades that cut through anything and having regenerative abilities, makes one a god?|
Originally Posted by CactusBrawler
A combination of Spiderman "Has the ability to sense attacks before they happen" and Wolverine "Can heal from anything" would be a god.
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o.O I thought that was typical superhero.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
The late game has you do things that ARE NOT within the capabilities of just a highly trained normal person. Not without disregarding the bulk of the visuals. And, yes, the Kronos Titan is a large part of that, as is Hequat. When you take an Explosive Missile Swarm to the face, shrug that off and proceed to beat down a machine roughly the size of the Atlas statue by punching it with your fists repeatedly, you've given up all pretence of normalcy. I used to have "natural human" characters once upon a time. I got rid of them all when I saw what they were supposed to be doing later in the game.
If the question here is "who purposely does NOT progress past a certain point," then that wouldn't be me. I find it to be both a gigantic waste and a profound missing of the point if one were to choose to, say, never level past 25 so he could stay at the level of the Tsoo and the Family and fight street-level crime. I mean, yeah, you can, but you're missing on 3/4 of the game.
"Men strunt �r strunt och snus �r snus
om ock i gyllne dosor.
Och rosor i ett sprucket krus
�r st�ndigt alltid rosor."