Character Conception :: Not A GOD
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2011-02-02 16:55 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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No, what you say is .. what do you mean "A" ?
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Originally Posted by Kyasubaru
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"That word... I do not think it means what you think you think it means..." |
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
I don't think the word "conception" means what you're using it to mean.
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I don't have gods. I have someone who is a servant to a dark god and another who is a champion of nature but that's about it. Not that I don't have villains that would love to become gods if they could get their hands on enough power...
I find the Well lore loose enough to be able to ignore it if I choose to. Some of my characters are just using new spells, trying new techniques or just advancing biologically, mechanically or magically. You can rationalise it into their backstory any way you choose. Personally, I find the Well lore incredibly weak so I ignore it with most of my 50s.
@Dante EU - Union Roleplayer and Altisis Victim
The Militia: Union RP Supergroup - www.themilitia.org.uk
Since any character can go up against godlike beings in the 45-50 range, it makes no sense within the game to play a character who doesn't have at least the *potential* to challenge godlike beings with seven of their friends. (Unless you freeze their XP gain at some low level, but that's really going out of your way to play an under-powered concept.)
My Incarnate level 50s are: 1) Ones that are badge collectors, to go after the assorted badges involved in the system, 2) Ones that are good team support characters, so they can help out on Incarnate Trials.
Character index
I do not have any God characters.
My namesake had already through a magical ritual tapped into a Phoenix's power. (Quite some time before she became a hero)
The Incarnate stuff are simply added bonus (new powers, effects, what ever is planned), new ways for it to manifest itself. (Besides Rise of the Phoenix)
Cyrene, my singing nature lover, wont become a God, but, getting more in touch with her mythical self.
God characters are simply... BORING. Having a God walk up to you in a bar just... is not... plausible. (Unless done very very well) Such a "God" would simply be a big lumbering, drunk of a fool with delusions of Godhood.
However being "touched" so your a bit stronger that is ok, by me. I do not think though we need to worry about our characters becoming Gods. Just slightly or more "touched by".
Lady Arete on Unionhandbook
My Excel Badge tool
The way I understand it, the Well isn't a source of power: It's THE source of power, and that it can manifest into all sorts of ways (and by extension, whenever you are increasing your power in any capacit you are tapping into the well?)
Eg. the INcarnate boost coul represent a new spell, or power aborbed directly, it could also be a new breathing excercise, or an ideafor a new schematic, or whatever.
"Men strunt �r strunt och snus �r snus
om ock i gyllne dosor.
Och rosor i ett sprucket krus
�r st�ndigt alltid rosor."
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Basically, that's what it comes down to, both in terms of what's being asked and why it isn't working. It's also something I've been saying pretty much since January 2005, when I first got Samuel Tow to 50.|
Originally Posted by rian_frostdrake
That said, one concept i have seen floating around that seems related to the initial question is "how many people purposely try to keep their characters "street level" powerful?" lets face it, if your character was able to drop the chronos titan solo or in a small group, you aint luke cage anymore, you are darn-near doctor strange by the time you are smashing rularru aspects. A close friend of mine actually has lamented the fact that really after you get to the upper levels, you are simply presented as one seriously powerful character, way beyond what could be believably considered normal but well trained in any real sense, you take on walking tanks head-on and win. now obviously being a incredibly powerful character fits the general superhero theme, and fits a lot of our themes, but i can sympathize with someone trying to just be a tough urban hero who suddenly is clearing rooms filled with behemoth overlords, entities who by both name and appearance would be terrifying opponents for groups of highly trained and well equipped humans, and you are vaporizing them en masse, that doesnt really vibe well.
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The late game has you do things that ARE NOT within the capabilities of just a highly trained normal person. Not without disregarding the bulk of the visuals. And, yes, the Kronos Titan is a large part of that, as is Hequat. When you take an Explosive Missile Swarm to the face, shrug that off and proceed to beat down a machine roughly the size of the Atlas statue by punching it with your fists repeatedly, you've given up all pretence of normalcy. I used to have "natural human" characters once upon a time. I got rid of them all when I saw what they were supposed to be doing later in the game.
If the question here is "who purposely does NOT progress past a certain point," then that wouldn't be me. I find it to be both a gigantic waste and a profound missing of the point if one were to choose to, say, never level past 25 so he could stay at the level of the Tsoo and the Family and fight street-level crime. I mean, yeah, you can, but you're missing on 3/4 of the game.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Basically, that's what it comes down to, both in terms of what's being asked and why it isn't working. It's also something I've been saying pretty much since January 2005, when I first got Samuel Tow to 50.
The late game has you do things that ARE NOT within the capabilities of just a highly trained normal person. Not without disregarding the bulk of the visuals. And, yes, the Kronos Titan is a large part of that, as is Hequat. When you take an Explosive Missile Swarm to the face, shrug that off and proceed to beat down a machine roughly the size of the Atlas statue by punching it with your fists repeatedly, you've given up all pretence of normalcy. I used to have "natural human" characters once upon a time. I got rid of them all when I saw what they were supposed to be doing later in the game. If the question here is "who purposely does NOT progress past a certain point," then that wouldn't be me. I find it to be both a gigantic waste and a profound missing of the point if one were to choose to, say, never level past 25 so he could stay at the level of the Tsoo and the Family and fight street-level crime. I mean, yeah, you can, but you're missing on 3/4 of the game. |
A visual fix would be an actual animated miss for these attacks. At least it would seem like you were actually avoiding the attacks.
"Samual_Tow - Be disappointed all you want, people. You just don't appreciate the miracles that are taking place here."
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
If the question here is "who purposely does NOT progress past a certain point," then that wouldn't be me. I find it to be both a gigantic waste and a profound missing of the point if one were to choose to, say, never level past 25 so he could stay at the level of the Tsoo and the Family and fight street-level crime. I mean, yeah, you can, but you're missing on 3/4 of the game.
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You could then roll a more powerful character and play that one to 50?
Brawling Cactus from a distant planet.
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I think a few of us roleplayers had a small meltdown about the Well lord when the Incarnate system was first announced. Certainly a lot of us didn't like there suddenly being this 'ultimate source of all our powers' after several years of playing self made characters. It's annoying but minor enough for me to ignore. It's not like we were all suddenly told that the reason for our powers was because we were aliens exiled from our home planet. |
Originally Posted by Arilou
The way I understand it, the Well isn't a source of power: It's THE source of power, and that it can manifest into all sorts of ways (and by extension, whenever you are increasing your power in any capacit you are tapping into the well?)
Eg. the INcarnate boost coul represent a new spell, or power aborbed directly, it could also be a new breathing excercise, or an ideafor a new schematic, or whatever. |
Oh wait, that was Highlander 2.
Still, I see Sam's point. I don't think I could ever run an all natural character to 50 for the same reason. Not without falling back on advanced technology or some other source of power.
@Dante EU - Union Roleplayer and Altisis Victim
The Militia: Union RP Supergroup - www.themilitia.org.uk
Black Scorpion's bin ending his posts with this lately.
"Your bud in the Incarnate-powered armor,
Black Scorpion "
In addition Hero One's Excalibur has bin confirmed to draw power from the well.
This covers the potability for tech super science and natural origins to gain power from the well.
See Magical Lyrical Nanoha or for another example of this sort of magiteck.
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Originally Posted by Dante
I think a few of us roleplayers had a small meltdown about the Well lord when the Incarnate system was first announced. Certainly a lot of us didn't like there suddenly being this 'ultimate source of all our powers' after several years of playing self made characters. It's annoying but minor enough for me to ignore. It's not like we were all suddenly told that the reason for our powers was because we were aliens exiled from our home planet.
Oh wait, that was Highlander 2. Still, I see Sam's point. I don't think I could ever run an all natural character to 50 for the same reason. Not without falling back on advanced technology or some other source of power. |
It's just part of the setting.
I prefer it to DC's everyone is a mutant (*ahem* meta human) or Marvel's everyone is a mutant, explanation for their being so many super powered people in the world.
It is also useful for explaining why Paragon Earth isn't that different to regular Earth.
Brawling Cactus from a distant planet.
The Incarnate stuff fits beautifully for my power-mad crab spider - started off as a natural, well-trained Wolf Spider, starts stealing tech for his own use (crab backpack, spider-bots), goes on to steal some science-y concoctions (Serum, I also take Fortification to be derived from some manner of super-soldier serum), then starts dabbling in magic with the patron pools (was originally going for Mu but decided on Soul in the end). From there the prospect of becoming a god-like being appeals greatly!
@Hakeswell
Union Ilservian, Evinlea
Defiant Expeditor, Hakeswell
Arc: 70119 Hellion Initiation
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/this. Well said.
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Originally Posted by Jophiel
Same here. The alpha slotting stuff is really just another enhancement. I don't sweat asking whether my character would really invent and use a "Mako's Bite" either.
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Originally Posted by Hydrofoil_Zero
Black Scorpion's bin ending his posts with this lately.
"Your bud in the Incarnate-powered armor, Black Scorpion " In addition Hero One's Excalibur has bin confirmed to draw power from the well. This covers the potability for tech super science and natural origins to gain power from the well. See Magical Lyrical Nanoha or for another example of this sort of magiteck. |
I really don't like the idea of "Magitech". I personally prefer the notion that Pandora's box expanded human potential. This allows for there to still be "normal" people who can still die like anyone else and will never gain super powers.
"Samual_Tow - Be disappointed all you want, people. You just don't appreciate the miracles that are taking place here."
All of my characters have backstories that are specifically crafted to fit into the game world. I sometimes conveniently gloss over things that I don't like, and I don't always refer to canon, but I never knowingly contradict in with my descriptions.
That means all of my characters have descriptions that are compatible with the level of power we see in the late game. That includes the Natural origin ones. I long ago discarded the notion that "natural" means "baseline human". I now see Natural origin, human characters as an otherwise normal human who unlocked something truly superhuman, but did so through none of the other Origin methods. In theory, any Primal Earth human could do this, but clearly only a rare few do.
Many of my characters are of Magic origin, and some have origins rather in line with the canonical Incarnate examples of Statesmen and Lord Recluse. These are old backstories, predating any real knowledge of Incarnates. I based some of them off of the old (now rarely refernced) "Entities" we see referenced in Magic SOs and the Serafina store contact dialogs. Such characters fit very nicely in the Incarnate backstory - they're just tapping into a new source of "magical" power.
Some though, are hard to align with it. For example, one of my characters is a truly baseline human who is wearing high-tech power armor. I don't have a problem imagining the Well having an interest in him, in the sense that his success with his armor makes a figure of great destiny. I just have a hard time imagining how the Well's focus on him really fits in. Does it grant the guy in the armor new abilities? Does it somehow enhance the armor? All of the above would work, but I'm having a hard time deciding what would I like it to be.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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We went around with this once before but I just assume a superhero-trained martial artist is finding weak points in the construction to damage, roundhouse kicking the hydraulics, damaging the wiring and circuitry, etc. And, of course, dodging the attacks or at least the worst of them. At the time, Sam said he visualized his fire blasts to be cataclysmic explosions of raging infernos (instead of the fire poofs the game actually displays) but couldn't visualize a martial artist doing anything beyond punching a Zeus Titan in the knee over and over. I can't personally get behind that distinction but then I don't have any vested interest in making Sam play natural martial artists either so he can do whatever makes him happy. |
Originally Posted by Anti_Proton
A visual fix would be an actual animated miss for these attacks. At least it would seem like you were actually avoiding the attacks.
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Keep in mind that this is not a "highly trained" person, this is a superhero-level trained person. The level of skill and training is beyond that of a real world martial artist just as the level of technology, magic and science in CoH surpasses anything in reality. If I'm being expected to believe that you can teach someone to shoot fire from their hands via magic or build a tech suit that allows you to create tentacles of dark energy, I'm not going to draw the line at saying you can't train someone's natural abilities far beyond that of today's actual martial artists.
Fairly damn superhuman martial arts capabilities by otherwise "normal" humans are something of a staple of anime/manga and Japanese and Chinese (and probably some other cultural) martial arts movies.
Sure, the movie itself is an intentional farce, but think Kung Fu Hustle.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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This.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
The late game has you do things that ARE NOT within the capabilities of just a highly trained normal person. Not without disregarding the bulk of the visuals. And, yes, the Kronos Titan is a large part of that, as is Hequat. When you take an Explosive Missile Swarm to the face, shrug that off and proceed to beat down a machine roughly the size of the Atlas statue by punching it with your fists repeatedly, you've given up all pretence of normalcy. I used to have "natural human" characters once upon a time. I got rid of them all when I saw what they were supposed to be doing later in the game. |
And furthermore, if you can't find a way to explain a facet of your character, you aren't trying hard enough. Just because we have awesome god-like powers does not mean that our characters are now gods. That is not what being an incarnate means.
Many of my character concepts are gods, god-like beings, or able to go toe-to-toe with such beings. Once in game, all of them have managed to fall disappointingly short of concept.
Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
I've read a couple of comic books.
I think the Incarnate system is kinda in line with what I read in those comic books.
I feel better.
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Unless you're stuck explaining your natural character fighting a Malta Titan? |
Originally Posted by Stone Daemon
[Complaint about how natural characters can't "realistically" exist in the later levels]
This. And furthermore, if you can't find a way to explain a facet of your character, you aren't trying hard enough. |
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I think that natural character is trying very hard!|
Originally Posted by Jophiel
Unless you're stuck explaining your natural character fighting a Malta Titan?
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Seriously, though, I think people need to decouple "Natural Origin" capabilities and "real-world human" capabilities. It's true that all (human) CoH heroes who perform their heroism simply through being extremely fit and well-trained are Natural Origin, but I think it is not true that all Natural Origin human heroes max out at peak real-world human potential.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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o.O|
Originally Posted by Dante
I think a few of us roleplayers had a small meltdown about the Well lord when the Incarnate system was first announced. Certainly a lot of us didn't like there suddenly being this 'ultimate source of all our powers' after several years of playing self made characters. It's annoying but minor enough for me to ignore. It's not like we were all suddenly told that the reason for our powers was because we were aliens exiled from our home planet.
Oh wait, that was Highlander 2. Still, I see Sam's point. I don't think I could ever run an all natural character to 50 for the same reason. Not without falling back on advanced technology or some other source of power. |
Didn't it always say that powers came about when Statesman and Recluse drank fromt he well, thus opening it up for powers to return, and thusly why our characters could do the things they did?
Yeah. Fine. Fae were always around, but they were in hiding because they were weak. Then the Well is brought back and boom, they could go out again.
That's basically how I read it.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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Originally Posted by BrandX
o.O
Didn't it always say that powers came about when Statesman and Recluse drank fromt he well, thus opening it up for powers to return, and thusly why our characters could do the things they did? Yeah. Fine. Fae were always around, but they were in hiding because they were weak. Then the Well is brought back and boom, they could go out again. That's basically how I read it. |
Our "powers," regardless of mutation or technology, were released when they opened Pandora's Rhomboidal Container of Happy Fun Stuff... after they drank from the Well.
Perhaps my attitude is one more akin to Recluse's initial attitude in the novels.
Yeah this is pretty much how I look at it. Okay so supposedly we are on the "long path" to becoming an incarnate but that doesn't mean we will succeed. At this point we have part of one new power slot which makes us a little strong in a few areas... I could take my Natural Hero and spend a lot of time in the gym and accomplish the same thing. I could take a tech hero and simply get her some updates. A mutant (science) hero could develope new powers as his or her body continues to evolve.... magic is even simpler. I found a new spell book and studied till I memorized new spells that make me stronger, faster, or whatever.
A classic comic book example would be Batman. Bruce Wane is no god. He is simply an ordinary man who happens to be wealthy and is driven by his desire for revenge to train and turn himself into a superhero (Natural). He developed weapons (Technology) based on the super villain he was facing over the years and eventually grew stronger, faster and was better equipped to handle anything. The incarnate system here is just a means for us to grow stronger and be better. Okay so we completed a story arc and are collecting shards.. For your RP purposes you can explain your increased abulities any way you like. Of course those that know me and play with me on Virtue know that I have always been a Goddess so why shouldn't I get special powers? hehehe
�We�re always the good guys. In D&D, we�re lawful good. In City of Heroes we�re the heroes. In Grand Theft Auto we pay the prostitutes promptly and never hit them with a bat.� � Leonard
�Those women are prostitutes? You said they were raising money for stem cell research!� � Sheldon