Character Conception :: Not A GOD

I typically agree, and specifically do as well, however. I would like to point out a bit of difference between other mechanics and the Incarnate system.

There is lore tied to the system explicitly through the story arc content that is less 'easy' to hand-wave away. After all, the reason your powers aren't "drained to the point of being useless" is the Incarnate lore.

It's a troubling aspect, sure, you can still hand-wave it off, but it becomes more a case of just ignoring the story/plot that is actually presented to you.

The question wasn't in question. The assumption that you make that, all characters who go through the incarnate system, become gods or the representation of gods is.

In fact, the whole pourpose of defeating Trapdoor is to get the artifact he has. An artifact that is connected to the powers of the Well of the Furies. On accquisition of the artifact it changes in a way that fits the player's origin. I.E. how the player will manifest the power they gain from the Well.

When Skillgap, for example, gains power from the well he is going to use the power to improve his natural ability. He isn't going to gain the power of Gurglebile the god of nasty. He will have a new source of power that he can put to use in the best way he can. In his case his Martial arts.

He won't be the manifestation of a God, he will gain godlike power that he can manifest in his own way.

Here's a curiosity. What God was Hero 1 the incarnate of?

You're right, it isn't that tricky. Being an incarnate doesn't mean being the manifistation of a god. It is having access to a new source of power that you can manifest in your own way.

As to the well being magic, it isn't. It is simply power. That power is manifested in a way that represents the player's origin. If your magic it is magic, if your tech it is also, and so on and so on.

It is power, pure and simple. How the power is used depends on your origin, because that is how you manifest your power. Your power which is, upon unlocking access, power from the well.

Well, basically one can look at it this way:

A character has powers because of (Freak Accident|Training|Gadgets|Pick One), and there is a certain reason behind them - the rules of the Universe, so to speak. The Well of Furies is just the one that wrote the rules, and getting information directly from the source will allow for the character to gain more power. Simplistically, Knowledge = Power.

Much like we don't know ALL the rules of physics, or chemistry, or whatever. Finding new things can potentially lead to new applications in whatever field one is studying. Getting closer to the source may unveil new knowledge for your Natural character to progress beyond what he thought possible before.

As a die hard spidey fan from way way back I feel obliged to correct this characterization of the... um character. (Yes, I own copies of ASM #42 and #50, featuring the first appearances of Mary Jane Watson and King Pin respectively. Not to mention far far too many books beyond that.)

The first three films barely touched on it, but for decades, one of Spiderman's MANY powers beyond his agility and wall walking was his signature "spider sense," a sort of vague precognition that would warn Peter Parker of imminent physical danger.

I realize this is a geeky nitpick entirely tangential to your points. This additional power makes Parker in no way a god, BUT as a decades long fan of the long running mythos I am saddened that this aspect of the character was for the most part written out of the mainstream films (aside from a few moments in the first film where it is hinted at via some time changes and audio cues played when we are sort of inside Parker's head just before an action sequence begins). Plus it gave the artists this great excuse to draw these wonderfully graphic halo of black wavy lines around Spidey's head.

Okay--back to the subject at hand.

</geekmoment>

To add to this, I remember when Spiderman was a comic strip in the papers as well. I was too young (around 3 or 4) to enjoy the serial type setup of the comic, but I remember when his Spidey-sense was going off, it would show only half the mask on Peter's face if he wasn't in full costume.

I remember asking my mom, who to this day knows nothing about comics except her son collected them, why Peter only had half his mask on!

It's been in all three of the films.

Heck in the first film they had a whole freeze frame and pan effect to show it in action.

I know that. She has something close to it, if only not as effective.

I just didn't see how maxing Spider-Man with Wolverine made a god. It seemed more like a typical superhero to me.

I don't remember that at all. Not saying it wasn't there, it's just I don't recall seeing it.

It's there. The movies are terrible, but not because of that.

Yep.

The Incarnate felderkarb officially marks the point where you should really start treating all game text as if it only said "click here to fight mobs".

Call it what you will, it's still magic. Despite not coming right out and saying that the Well is magic, there's still a lot of hints that something supernatural is going on. Until they put in something that convinces me the Well's ability to give you a boost through what is essentially wish-fulfillment is actually some sort of cosmological constant like gravity, then all of the talk about magical items (Excalibur, Hera's Girdle, the power of Zeus, etc.) is something I'm going to take at face value.

There is a Magic origin in the game, Mu is a magic-based gene pool, Omega team was specifically comprised of magic users, the Rikti are now seeking magic... on and on. If they're going to switch gears and start saying that what we call "magic" is actually technologically manipulated dark energy or something, then come out and do it. But that's going to make a lot of people unhappy. "Magic" as a generic concept is pretty well understood and is accepted to be part of this universe. Everything regarding the Well of Furies has been about mythological gods and the supernatural magic powers they possessed, and how the most powerful NPCs are likewise incarnates of those mythic gods.

No matter how much they "character develop" the Well of Furies to not be a physical well, there is still a ton of lore about how it's magic.

Regardless of how the boost is given, whether it's by magical means of "Power Spirits Activate!" or some form of nanotechnology rewriting a character's DNA, some of my characters aren't going to participate in that. Because I want them to have the story arc of *my* choosing, not have one forced upon them.

I see what you mean, but I actually started doing that with the Origin of Power nonsense since it instantly invalidated at least a dozen character backstories, especially my 117-year-old mutant who was told that no mutants existed before 1938.

And here's the problem with revisiting game lore right from the start of the game: players have been adding to and adapting to that lore for years now with their own backstories. To suddenly introduce things like the 'no mutants before 1938' is to retcon a wealth of player experience where they've taken what we know and ran with it. Even if you're not into rp, that kind of sudden revelation is just... poor storytelling.

You have a very broad definition of "magic," which appears to be "anything that's not otherwise defined." I disagree with that interpretation of the concept, considering City of Heroes already makes a CLEAR distinction between the power of the divine - which tends to be classed Natural - and magical ritual, spell, incantation and enchantment. This is the centrepiece of the story of Tielekku, and by also apparently the theme behind the story of the Well of the Furies, which we call that only because that's the image it took on when Statesman and Recluse drank from it.

You also assume that items like Excalibur are "magic," when there really is no clear evidence that they are, or indeed that they are supernatural in general. We see them do things we cannot expect, yes, but we cannot infer that they are "magical" in the definition of City of Heroes any more than we can infer that the Green Lantern ring is magical in nature simply because its effect looks like magic. "Unexplainable" is not a definition for magic.

As I understood the power of the Well to work was in granting both opportunity and inspiration. A Scientist blessed by the Well will simply be able to have ever better ideas and be ever more capable of following through with them. A mutant blessed by the power of the Well will be more likely to develop benevolent mutations which improve their powers, as opposed to developing cancer. Magic users, furthermore, will find themselves better able to cast their spells, channel their magic items, draw on their magic blood and so forth.

The well has no "power" in the literal sense of the word. The well cannot actually "do" anything. It needs us to act through our powers, ideally on its behalf. The true power of the Well is the power of the people who "drank" from it.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

Well, aside from the fact that they did use the 'Spidey-Sense' in the first movie in a scene devoted to it (he just never called it 'Spidey-Sense') I also recall many moments in the comics and TV-Shows where he appears to also have a sort of super-strength, being able to throw things many times his own weight using his webs (say what you want about the webs being strong in and of themselves, that's still his strength he's using to tug the webs.) and I remember a moment in one thing where he picked up a round dinner table and hurled it through the air with his bare hands - it's to the point where Mutants and Masterminds players actually give him at least minor super strength when they stat him out.

ANYWAYS!

I've always figure that all of my "Normal Person" characters are closer to the "Humourous Character who somehow manages to do impossible things" type. Like Squirrel Girl! As far as I know, her only real ability is to control squirrels, and yet she's beat Doctor Doom and at least one god-like entity before. Then again, I like adding that sort of humour to the CoX world! It's no stretch at all for me to say that a character of mine does something that tops someone that should be much stronger than them, so long as it amuses me to have it happen. One of my "Natural Origin" characters is just a normal person in a power-rangers-esque suit, for instance, and as such she can get away with defeating huge robots. The Power Rangers did things that shouldn't be possible, too!

Plus, it's FUN and HILARIOUS.

See also: Clarke's Third Law

Best explanation I've seen so far. Bravo.

The well is a universal constant, at least it is on Paragon Earth.

When the well is active you get people born with super powers, or getting them from accidents, or having the dedication to train them self to super human level.

When the well isn't active you get the real world, an accident that spills chemicals on you, doesn't give you fire powers, it burns your skin off. You don't discover that your boss has been working on a high tech robo suit, nope the most shocking discovery you make is that Mark from accounts is doinking Maureen from the cafe.


When touched/influenced by the well you can come up with an explanation from any of the origins as to why your character powered up, without it having to be magic. Simply put, the reason why those are origins for super powers, is because of the existence of the well, no well, no super powers.

At least for people from Earth any way.

I haven't watched the first movie since about a year after it came out. Only watched the second and third one once each when they were released, so it's really no surprise I don't remember that scene.

I remember the Marvel Superheroes tabletop RPG listed his Strength as Incredible, which meant he could lift 10 tons.

Of course, according to that game, Wolverine could lift 400lbs, and Rogue was a mere 50 tons, when I recall the comics, she was deadlifting over 60 tons with no problem. I think that was in Forge's workshop, but I could be wrong. Then again, I haven't played MSH since high school, so I could be remembering wrong, but that was a fun game!

Hell, I started back when my first "main", who came to the US to fight the Nazi remnants of the Fifth Column was told that everyone magically became generic Italian space-fascists overnight and the Fifth Column never really had any place in Paragon City's history -- as evidenced by dozens of ret-conned plaques, markers and NPC dialogues.

I disagree strongly that this distinction is so clear. Go read the description on the Magic SOs that reference "the entities", which is (IMO) a pretty clear early lore abstraction for "gods". They refer to beings which grant you improved abilities, and it's pretty hard to ignore that this is the "magic" enhancement type. These entities include Joule and Grey, who seem original, and Hermes, who is a clear reference to a mythological god of legend. Less compelling, but still relevant, is that the Magic/Natural category of DOs are called "Relics", which is a name which makes me think of holy objects.

So I do not at all agree that the distinction between magic in the sorcery sense and the power of the gods is clear, the story of Tielekku notwithstanding. As is so often the case, CoH's lore contains overlapping or even contradictory information, and we're left to choose the interpretation that makes the most sense to us. Given the link to the "entities" that all the Magic SOs describe, and the presence of an entity named Hermes, I have always filed all the CoH "gods" as "entities", and thus included the power of the gods under the heading of "magic". (I also therefore reject the power of the gods as "Natural", but that gets back into a different debate that you and I have had several times, and firmly disagree on.)

To quote Mender Silos: "Several things are incorrect about that statement, but go on." It's really not hard to understand that you're mistaken. You're thinking of the dictionary and old meaning of incarnate (as it applies to the game lore), and as others have said, that is simply not the case.

Good. Because we won't be "becoming god's."

"Statesman and Lord Recluse will not be the only ones possessing Incarnate abilities. The most powerful individuals from this point forward will struggle to unlock their inner Incarnate and discover new powers. These new Incarnates have affected the Storm, but we of Ouroboros may have created a different threat through our efforts."

Last I heard, normal superheroes don't "unlock their inner god."

I know, right?


Really? Cause it kinda sounds like you are. That aside, it all comes back to you having faulty information, and are poor at role playing.

I thought of something else that doesn't jive with this. What "god" is Hero One an incarnate of? We're told that he's in Incarnate in Ramiel's arc.