Character Conception :: Not A GOD
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2011-02-02 16:55 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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O...I see....THATS DIRTY!!!
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Oh yes you are
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Virtue: @Santorican
Dark/Shield Build Thread
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Just to clarify something that I feel may have gotten missed.|
Originally Posted by Eva Destruction
Depends how you define "demon." If you define them as denizens of a demon-dimension, then nope, it's entirely possible to access it through other means. The game never says they're specifically "magic."
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I was baiting a question initially. It wasn't a fair tactic, I'll admit
. I like Demons as an open choice. I like robots as an open choice too. There's no real problem from utilizing either in your characters how you want. You can usually fit system mechanics to fit your character somehow, maybe with a bit of fudging [consider : Manticore with teleport before the comic changed the rules], but it's workable.The part I see of being troubling is Ramiel's arc, there is the path on rails aspect, but it's a mission arc, they tend to have that problem in general, they put words/actions/motivations in your path. The arc did a good job of varying up the 'Incarnate' device for the origin. Sure it may not be varied or generic enough for some, but it's a good step in that direction. Personally, it feels far less 'forced origin typing' than the Invention system, but even that is still manageable.
I don't personally have a problem with the 'Well' being a meta-origin. I accept that the interpretations of it were subjective. I actually did kind of like that Recluse initially thought of it in terms of some sort of special radiation that improved him. I'll also be honest and state I never really finished reading the book, just started it and got bored with it, so I'm not too sure when/how that attitude changed.
Let's Dance!
Seems like the real problem here is the naming of the system. People are reading 'Incarnate' and then thinking 'Incarnate (of a god)' and hey, that must be magic, right?
It's pretty clear in-game that all the Well really does is make you 'more better' at whatever you already do. If you fling magic then yeah, it's a 'magic power boost' because it's making you better at flinging magic which is what you already did. Statesman was originally Natural (unlocking his potential in the Orient and all that) so when he drank from the Well he got a big boost of Natural power; he's a Natural Incarnate.
Recluse I don't think has been stated definitively in-game but the tie-in novel had him considering it as a sort of scientific boost (and stuff like the pylons at the end of the STF seem to also imply this is the direction he thinks in) so I would expect him to be a Science Incarnate.
The Well doesn't give you any particular sort of power. It just gives you Power, and how you use it is defined by who (and what) you already are.
Edit: That said, I tend to ignore the lore around this for my characters. I'll still make them 'incarnates' because I want the game mechanics that come with that, but as far as I'm concerned the Well and Incarnates (lore-wise) don't exist in their stories/concepts. It's a purely mechanical system as far as I care.
We talk about Origin so much that we seem to forget the actual meaning of the word.
Just because your Origin is "Natural" doesn't mean that your Destination is too.
The whole concept behind Power being a sentient force in the universe that drives the evolution of willful beings opens you up to all manner of interpretations for how that works in practice. You may start out as a particularly skilled martial artist, but over the span of your career you get faster, stronger, more agile...and one day you just *snap* and suddenly everything that took effort before is now effortless. You broke through some natural limitation through sheer force of will and now you're so fast you react before things happen, you're so strong you defy the laws of physics, you're so agile you dodge instinctively, thoughtlessly, even things you can't see coming.
Everything that took hard work and effort before becomes second-nature, and you're ready to push yourself Beyond "Natural".
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This is pretty much my view. Some of my characters the whole well of furies/incarnate powers makes sense with the concept. In some cases it makes sense as a concept but the actual arc form Mender Ramiel does not fit. In some cases it makes no sense at all.|
Originally Posted by Atomic_Woman
Edit: That said, I tend to ignore the lore around this for my characters. I'll still make them 'incarnates' because I want the game mechanics that come with that, but as far as I'm concerned the Well and Incarnates (lore-wise) don't exist in their stories/concepts. It's a purely mechanical system as far as I care.
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I can still use it to increase my power however since other than the introductory arc the actual boosts are completely abstract.
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Even the Natural origin in-game is really more of a 'Beyond Natural' since, as has been brought up earlier, no truly 'natural' person is going to be punching Rularuu out. The Natural origin is as super-powered as any of the other four, it's just the one that embodies your personal power/willpower/determination/whatever, whether you're like Apex and you just trained so hard you can do things no other mortal can, or whether you're an alien and shooting cosmic rays comes 'naturally' to your race.|
Originally Posted by Yosomono
Just because your Origin is "Natural" doesn't mean that your Destination is too.
... Everything that took hard work and effort before becomes second-nature, and you're ready to push yourself Beyond "Natural". |
Natural = Power over/through myself
Science = Power gained by altering myself
Technology = Power harnessed via external object(s)
Mutation = Power inherent in myself from birth (kind of straddles Natural/Science)
Magic = Power harnessed via control over mystical spells/items/entities/etc
The Well is none of these (or perhaps all of them, from a certain point of view). It gives you Power, and you use that power in a way that is dictated by your Origin.
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Originally Posted by Atomic_Woman
Even the Natural origin in-game is really more of a 'Beyond Natural' since, as has been brought up earlier, no truly 'natural' person is going to be punching Rularuu out.
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This. Totally.
As I've said before, the Origins are beyond silly because it's Natural for a Mutant to have powers. It's Science that a Technology hero creates and uses Power Armor.
Cable is a Mutant (with a very low TK power.) He uses a Gun and a Teleporter (Both Science & Technology.)
Wolverine, again a Mutant, has advanced regeneration (Mutant) and had/has Claws and an Adamantium skeleton (Science.)
Superman is a Natural.
Batman is a Natural, yet uses Science & Technology all the time.
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I'm going to spoil some Green Lantern comics for some people who haven't read the Blackest Night story arc yet.|
Originally Posted by The_Alt_oholic
Really, I'm just asking who is going to "stick to their guns" in regards to their character conception and not become an "incarnate/god".
If you take the alpha "Incarnate" slot, you are becoming an "incarnate/god" regardless of character conception and if you like it or not. |
Ion : Ion is in fact the symbiotic willpower entity birthed from the green of the emotional spectrum.
Anyone that is "possessed" by Ion could be termed the Incarnation of Willpower. Not a god.
Parallax : As soon as sentient beings in the universe felt fear, Parallax was born.
Anyone possessed by Parallax could be termed the Incarnation of Fear. Not a god
Predator: The Predator is the ultimate embodiment of that emotion: love with nothing to temper it.
Anyone possessed by Predator could be termed the Incarnation of Love. not a god.
I would conclude that being an Incarnate does not, in my opinion, make you the Incarnation of a god.
There is even a badge called "Justice Incarnate". I was not aware that there was a god called Justice. Just the server. Unless all the servers are gods. Then, you might be right in that we'd all be Incarnations of <insert server played on>. Somehow, I don't think that is what you were intending though.
There I was between a rock and a hard place. Then I thought, "What am I doing on this side of the rock?"
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What if my Natural Origin isn't human, but an alien from a doomed planet, who developes flight, super strength and invulnerability under the Earth's yellow sun, due to the effects of the yellow son on the aliens race? :O|
Originally Posted by Atomic_Woman
Even the Natural origin in-game is really more of a 'Beyond Natural' since, as has been brought up earlier, no truly 'natural' person is going to be punching Rularuu out. The Natural origin is as super-powered as any of the other four, it's just the one that embodies your personal power/willpower/determination/whatever, whether you're like Apex and you just trained so hard you can do things no other mortal can, or whether you're an alien and shooting cosmic rays comes 'naturally' to your race.
Natural = Power over/through myself Science = Power gained by altering myself Technology = Power harnessed via external object(s) Mutation = Power inherent in myself from birth (kind of straddles Natural/Science) Magic = Power harnessed via control over mystical spells/items/entities/etc The Well is none of these (or perhaps all of them, from a certain point of view). It gives you Power, and you use that power in a way that is dictated by your Origin. |
Natural isn't just about being human
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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To repeat:|
Originally Posted by BrandX
What if my Natural Origin isn't human, but an alien from a doomed planet, who developes flight, super strength and invulnerability under the Earth's yellow sun, due to the effects of the yellow son on the aliens race? :O
Natural isn't just about being human |
The Natural origin is as super-powered as any of the other four, it's just the one that embodies your personal power/willpower/determination/whatever, whether you're like Apex and you just trained so hard you can do things no other mortal can, or whether you're an alien and shooting cosmic rays comes 'naturally' to your race.
The overview of the BAF Trial has some more Well-related info, including the introduction of the Titan Prometheus:
http://www.cityofheroes.com/news/new...ue_20_-_t.html
Maybe there might be an "anti-Well" way of progressing for some stages of the Incarnate path?
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
Huh, didn't see this thread before.
As I've said on others, though, I'm only going for Incarnate on a few of my characters - the ones whose concept includes having or seeking great power. Most are "merely" super-beings, and at least three are just determined, trained, well-equipped mortal men.
My characters at Virtueverse
Faces of the City
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Actually, there are a few others.|
Originally Posted by Ironik
*I* am not drawing examples out of that, those are the only examples we're given. Name another NPC who is an Incarnate. See? It's just Statesman, Recluse and Hero-1.
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An unknown pregnant woman gained Incarnate powers from the god Stheno, sister of Medusa, and her children are the Snakes. The woman herself became Stheno, and can be fought redside. The game's UI lists her as an AV instead of an Incarnate though, but her background does mention she's an Incarnate.
Trapdoor is an Incarnate as well, although he may only be an 'artificial' or 'impure' one due to how he got his powers, he still has Incarnate abilities; The Well gave him powers, it's how he teleports long distances during the first arc you have against him.
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It is by caffeine alone that I set my mind in motion. It is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed, the hands acquire shaking, the shaking becomes a warning. It is by caffeine alone that I set my mind in motion.
The short version:
They changed it, now it sucks!
Back to your regular thread.
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