Concealment Pools needs some love
By
Boomie,
Posted on: 2011-02-02 06:34 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
Well, there's the standard 'the game is not balanced around IOs' thing, and even with a stealth IO, you still need to add another power to get invisibility. But, yeah, a few powers like this that are so easily replaced by single IOs probably need a little love. Acrobatics comes to mind too, though that at least has applications beyond what a -KB IO does.
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Eh, it's a niche set. It's not suppose to be super amazing or all-purpose. All in all, the set isn't bad but I wouldn't turn down a decrease in the endurance of all the powers.
One suggestion I'd put down: I always considered Concealment to be another type of travel power in leagues with Flight, Teleport, Leaping and Speed since it sort of does give the advantages of those pools (getting around without being harassed by NPCs).
I'd like Concealment to be included with the City Traveler vet reward so that I can choose to skip Stealth/Grant Invisibility on certain toons so I can straight pick up Invisibility then Phase Shift. As is, I have concepts for several characters that Phase Shift fits but needing to pick up 2 powers to get it is a hefty price. I can see picking up Stealth or Invisibility but not both >_>
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From the way I understand it, City Traveler does not allow you to take the fourth power in a pool without two other powers in the pool. It only grants access to the travel power without a prerequisite.
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Originally Posted by Leo_G
I'd like Concealment to be included with the City Traveler vet reward so that I can choose to skip Stealth/Grant Invisibility on certain toons so I can straight pick up Invisibility then Phase Shift. As is, I have concepts for several characters that Phase Shift fits but needing to pick up 2 powers to get it is a hefty price. I can see picking up Stealth or Invisibility but not both >_>
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Really? Guess I never bothered tried since taking Group flight/TP, Acrobatics or Whirlwind were never on my 'to get' list...
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Because it will save you those millions? Not everyone or even most people are marketeers with billions to throw around. "80 or so mil" to me means "don't even consider buying".
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Originally Posted by xhris
Given that you can turn any movement power to Stealth with 80 or so mil, why pick Stealth over Combat Jumping except for concept reasons, especially when CJ buffs your movement speed and offer immob protection?
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Because:|
Originally Posted by xhris
I can't help but feel that the Concealment Pool and Stealth in particular need some fixes. Given that you can turn any movement power to Stealth with 80 or so mil, why pick Stealth over Combat Jumping except for concept reasons, especially when CJ buffs your movement speed and offer immob protection? I'm aware that the whole pool is awesome as a mule for LoTG, but can't see why Stealth needs that speed debuff. I seems kinda outdated and all, now that you can replicate most of the pool with temp powers and IOs without wasting a single power choice.
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1. Not everyone wants to dump 80 million into an IO, even if they have it,
2. Stealth gives you a place to slot OTHER IOs, including KB protection,
3. Not everyone wants combat jumping, for whatever reason you threw that into the mix,
4. Stealth is available at level 6, and IOs are not,
5. Stealth unlocks Invisibility and Phase Shift (though, to me, the last one *is* worthless, given you can get a good number of temp powers to replicate it - barring PVP use,)
6. You can stack Stealth and that IO,
7. There are times you may want that travel/combat power without being stealthy, which makes the IO work against you, depending on where you slotted it. (See also "Hostage gets lost.") Stealth you can independently toggle on/off.
I LOVE the stealth set, perfect place for a few LotG mules. I have it on most of my toons.
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Actually about this last 1 they changed all 120 procs to turn off if the power they go in turns off. ie they dont last for 120 seconds anymore unless they are in a click power.|
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
7. There are times you may want that travel/combat power without being stealthy, which makes the IO work against you, depending on where you slotted it. (See also "Hostage gets lost.") Stealth you can independently toggle on/off.
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That goes for the stealth IO, kismet IO, numina IO etc. Of course they still stay on 100% of the time if in an auto power.
The only power under Pools that I don't understand is Whirlwind. I've seen it in action at Blackmarket when people are bored.
Can you use other powers while Whirlwind is on? It seems like you are stuck in that spinning animation? What is the point of Whirlwind?
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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Knockback.|
Originally Posted by Jibikao
The only power under Pools that I don't understand is Whirlwind. I've seen it in action at Blackmarket when people are bored.
Can you use other powers while Whirlwind is on? It seems like you are stuck in that spinning animation? What is the point of Whirlwind? |
Basically it supposed to serve the same purpose as powers like Repel, Repulsion Field, or Force Bubble. It would buy somebody in melee time to get out of melee and to safety.
I think an overall decrease in Endurance usage for Concealment pool powers as well as removing Stealth's movement penalties would go a long way toward helping that pool out.
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What would be a good idea, is to allow the Concealment Pool to stack with all other forms of Stealth, much like how it stacks with Stalkers Hide.|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
Eh, it's a niche set. It's not suppose to be super amazing or all-purpose. All in all, the set isn't bad but I wouldn't turn down a decrease in the endurance of all the powers.
One suggestion I'd put down: I always considered Concealment to be another type of travel power in leagues with Flight, Teleport, Leaping and Speed since it sort of does give the advantages of those pools (getting around without being harassed by NPCs). I'd like Concealment to be included with the City Traveler vet reward so that I can choose to skip Stealth/Grant Invisibility on certain toons so I can straight pick up Invisibility then Phase Shift. As is, I have concepts for several characters that Phase Shift fits but needing to pick up 2 powers to get it is a hefty price. I can see picking up Stealth or Invisibility but not both >_> |
So many times I've wanted to take the Concealment Pool on Power set combos that I just didn't because Stealth and Invis become almost useless to me, if I have, for example, Shadowfall.
I have Shadowfall, Stealth just became useless. Invisibility may become useless if I stack Shadowfall with a Stealth IO or Super Speed, but I'd really love to have Phase Shift to go with that ghost concept.
So I think just allowing Stealth/Invisibility to stack with all powerset Stealth powers, is the way to improve the set.
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Like Lightslinger and BrandX said:
1) removing [Stealth]'s speed debuff and
2) allowing it to stack with Shadow Fall/Steamy Mist/Arctic Fog/etc.
would make Concealment a much more attractive pool.
Even if we take IOs out of the mix, pools give access to two Stealth powers: [Stealth] and [Super Speed]. Now, [Super Speed] is sort of treated as an "unofficial" Stealth power by devs and can stack with other Stealth powers. Also, it brings you close to the run cap, while [Stealth] actually debuffs you. Stealths strong point is the def buff and the earlier access. Finally, SS can actually turn into an Invisibility power, but like I said let's forget about IOs.
What I can't see is how is [Stealth] supposed to be balanced around that speed debuff and its inability to stack with other powers, when any AT with a stealth power in their main pools can get SS to do the same thing and better as they also get a hefty travel power and then choose either CJ or Hover if the want more defense. Also, reducing its Speed does nothing to balance the power, as you will get to your destination eventually, it just annoys the player enough to turn them away from the power.
I have [Stealth] in my build and I don't plan to respec out of it any time soon. I just keep getting the feeling that those limitations were added at a much earlier phase of the game and were never fixed as the game progressed. Most, if not all, pools need some makeover, however, since now that Fitness is inherent, there is only one useful Tier4 power left and even if some others are somewhat interesting, having to take 2 other powers before getting to them makes them horrible. How come Whirlwind requires 2 power choices while I can get Hasten at lv6? IMO allowing all Tier4 powers, except maybe Weave, to be available with only one prerequisite, like Tier3's, but stay locked until lv20 would be optimal.
Speed -debuff in stealth needs to go.
Invisibility needs a reduction in terms of endurance
Phase Shift needs to be spiced up.
I would just pitch in that although the defense bonus in stealth doesn't seem significant, it is far from useless for softcapped builds. In several builds I've made, it saved me from ever having to consider the mythical gladiators armor +3% def.
I would agree that the speed debuff sucks, but removing it would make the power essentially a clone of cloaking device from Devices. My S/L capped DP/Dev blaster went devices largely for the nonslowing stealth power, and it would make me very sadface if Stealth suddenly became identical. It would've been MM without a doubt otherwise. If the speed debuff was removed from Stealth, a compensatory buff should be introduced to cloaking device IMHO.
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I agree with that.
| but can't see why Stealth needs that speed debuff. |
Yea, I have stealth on most my characters... but never use it (because, well, being slow moving from group to group stinks, and if i am stealthing somewhere, i use invis instead).
But, the REAL jem of concealment is phase shift!! that power is GREAT! Anyone squishy NEEDS that power. An ambush comes? No problem, shift out. A boss on you while no one is paying attention? Shift! Basically, it is a "I don't want to die right now, thnks" power... which is very very very very nice.
Mew
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The problem with making Stealth more powerful is that would greatly reduce the usefulness of Cloaking Device, Energy Cloak, and even Cloak of Darkness. (CoD has Immobilize protection and +Perception as well as stealth, but those are minor advantages if you remove the stealth) |
Originally Posted by xhris
1) removing [Stealth]'s speed debuff and
2) allowing it to stack with Shadow Fall/Steamy Mist/Arctic Fog/etc. would make Concealment a much more attractive pool. |
To me the advantage of Stealth is that you have the Defense, which the IO doesn't give you, which stacks with any other Defense you may have, and you can stack the stealth with a Stealth IO itself. Anyone can get full invisilbity with Stealth + Super Speed, and it doesn't even cost you 80 million.
The disadvantage of Stealth is the speed debuff, which let's face it, is negligible. You can counter it by taking Quickness. You can almost counter it by three slotting Swift. It you take Super Speed or any speed boosting power, that will pretty much make it eliminate it.
The Stealth IO, BTW, is only 30 feet, while Stealth and other related powers are 35 feet. While this may seem unimportant, this means that while the average minion will see a Stealthed foe at 10 feet away, the Stealth IO'd foe will be seen at 15 feet away. So between 10 and 15 feet from an enemy, the Stealth power will not be seen when the IO will. For Lts this will be between 15 and 20 feet away, and for Bosses between 20 and 25 feet away. And again, stacking them both will hide you from ALL THREE, right up to melee.
The Concealment pool competes with:
- Stealth IOs.
- Multiple Stealth Temporary Powers
- The 'Grant Invisibility' Empowerment
- Super Speed
The penalty Stealth carries is a holdover from a different design mentality long since abandoned. It doesn't really have any meaningful impact on character performance (especially now that Swift is inherent). So, all it manages to be is... annoying. Many powers with a stealth component once had this penalty, but now it's been removed from them. I think the same should be done with Stealth.
Invisibility is also not terribly attractive, having been diminished by the various stealth stacking options that have been introduced over the years. It would be nice if something were done to make this power stand out more (yah, I see the funny in that statement). Maybe give it a Sprint-esque speed increase? I dunno. But something. I'm sure people could come up with some neat ideas.
I think Phase Shift is okay, even if it's but a shadow of its former glory. But what I'd love to see is a fifth power added to the pool that does a pulse-phase similar to what Illusionists and Master Illusionists have. Obviously, it'd have to be a lesser version, but it'd be an interesting option.
Of course, there are still reasons to take the Concealment pool. I have it on 2 characters, myself. But the decision to adopt it was weighed heavily against the multiple alternatives available and the aggravating, seemingly pointless penalties involved (stacking, speed). I think more significant than the 2 characters who have it are the multiple characters who would have it, but don't, due to its shortcomings.
The most prominent example would be a character concept that could've been represented as a Dual Pistols/Traps Corruptor... but that would've meant taking the Concealment pool. In order to avoid that, I went through the trouble of making the character a Pistols/Devices Blaster... and then went rogue.
I don't think any pool should be quite that unattractive.
I also don't think pool powers should be overshadowed by temp powers.
And, finally, I think that these pools should be dynamic and attractive enough that they promote variety in character builds.
It seems to me Concealment is falling way short in all of this.
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Well Energy Cloak and Cloak of Darkness do not suppress when attacking of when attacked, only when clicking mission objectives or PvP. Not only does the stealth not suppress but neither does the defense where Cloaking Device and Stealth do. That's sufficient enough difference from the pool power, IMO.| The problem with making Stealth more powerful is that would greatly reduce the usefulness of Cloaking Device, Energy Cloak, and even Cloak of Darkness. (CoD has Immobilize protection and +Perception as well as stealth, but those are minor advantages if you remove the stealth) |
Cloaking Device has an additional damage component to Assault Rifle's snipe.
Personally, I'd suggest adding to those powers to give room to alter Stealth to make it a bit more attractive:
-EC/CoD could add a bit of -def resist. Just a tiny bit which won't do much for Dark Armor but help quite a bit for Energy Aura.
-CD could just have the snipe damage component added to all set's snipes. Sets without a snipe...oh well T_T
-Stealth, honestly the -speed is negligible. But if I were to help it out, changing it so it only suppresses when *you* attack would be cool. It'd be a pretty useful power to stealth mission objectives (which, honestly, I don't see as an issue). And you can still stay hidden when you get attacked.
Personally, that Stealth can't stack with other stealth shouldn't be a problem. It's Stalker's schtick to stack stealth anyway. But I still think each stealth power could have unique features to make them desirable to flip between different types of stealth like:
-EC/CoD is the combat stealth that keeps you hidden all the time.
-Steamy Mist/Shadowfall is the team version of the above.
-Hide is a super sneak attack mode + perfect invisibility.
-Cloaking Device could be the ranged version of Hide minus the perfect invisibility.
-Stealth could be the mission concealment version to get special objects while staying unnoticed.
-Invisibility could be a super aggro-shedder panic button that gives defense and drops your threat super low while its on.
Eh, basically just build each with specific tasks in mind rather than needing them to stack (which isn't very useful in PvE anyway and annoying in PvP).
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I agree. I particularly like your take on Invisibility. |
Originally Posted by Leo_G
Eh, basically just build each with specific tasks in mind rather than needing them to stack (which isn't very useful in PvE anyway and annoying in PvP).
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I really like Grant Invisibility on my kinetic guys. They can hit teammates/allies with speed boost and grant invisibility. Some folks can use the extra invis when they aren't used to the extra speed or have lag issues and 'overshoot' in combat situations. It's also great for pushing a team through missions you want to stealth if your assemble the team is on cooldown. Finally, grant invis is another layer, albeit a thin layer, of defense for teammates.
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That's Targeting Drone, not Cloaking Device.
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Originally Posted by Leo_G
Cloaking Device has an additional damage component to Assault Rifle's snipe.
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If you guys are paying 80 million for a stealth IO then I have a brooklyn bridge to sell you because you are getting royally ripped off.
I would like to see the concealment pool buffed.
Remove speed debuff as well as remove the defense suppression if you attack from Stealth
Make Invisibility useful, why was it ever made to not be able to interact with anything when used was beyond me.
Grant Invisibility is fine as is
Phase Shift is a delicate thing and honestly I think it is fine the way it is right now. I remember when it used to be awesome in that you were doing the McHammer while being able to interact with glowies.
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I can't help but feel that the Concealment Pool and Stealth in particular need some fixes. Given that you can turn any movement power to Stealth with 80 or so mil, why pick Stealth over Combat Jumping except for concept reasons, especially when CJ buffs your movement speed and offer immob protection? I'm aware that the whole pool is awesome as a mule for LoTG, but can't see why Stealth needs that speed debuff. I seems kinda outdated and all, now that you can replicate most of the pool with temp powers and IOs without wasting a single power choice.