Stop the tedium! [Constant Buff Recast]
By
-Urchin-,
Posted on: 2011-01-13 21:22 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
I used to think my ill/sonic controller was the laziest char around. Apply debuff toggle, buff every 4 minutes, drop pets, use Liquify every now and again and drink tea. Then I started playing her seriously and played well she is very busy. Shields, clarity, pets, debuff, reapply toggle which dropped, attack, etc etc.
However, I think almost every set is. How many chars do you actually use a few powers then stop? (I'm really trying not to make a snarky comment about my bots/ff mm.) None as I can think of, so really being a shielder isn't that different. (I'm ignoring CM/clarity/thaw/SB etc because it isn't feasible/necessary to keep them up 100% of the time.)
So a shielder has to reapply up to 14 powers in 4 minutes. I wonder how many times footstomp is used in that time? Or Ripper? Or Assassin Strike?
I can see the argument for either an AoE shield like Regen/Recovery Aura or a longer lasting shield, BUT I can also see the valid counter arguments.
(1) An AoE would likely be a much weaker buff with a huge endurance cost.
- Generally I will buff half the team, wait two minutes then buff the other half otherwise I'm going to drop toggles
- An AoE end-heavy buff would be a poor trade off for me and doubly so if that buff is then smaller than currently
- Individual shields allow me to prioritize; if I'm short on time/end I know I can skip someone and they'll be fine without; an AoE would take out that flexibility and if I miss a squishy I get to burn all that end again
I'm too tired to do a good mathematical comparison right now but check out AoE buffs like Regen/Recovery aura. End cost 26 for 90s and recharge 500s (all unenhanced). That's a compared to a sonic shield of 7.8 end for 4 mins (negligible recharge time). My guess is the two shields as an AoE would bottom out my sonic.
(2) Longer lasting buffs
- Depends on the length, a minute ... ok, 10 minutes ... "you've got shields, afk now" 
... 20 minutes "you've got shields" *kick*
- CoX has a great community but there's always going to be idiots and I don't see any need to encourage them
A good buffer is worth their weight in gold. They keep the team up, they think fast, react fast and most of the time you don't even know they're there. I don't think increasing the buff length is going to improve someone's playskills. I don't want a wanna-be blaster on the team when I expect and invited a buffer. Pretty sure if I showed up on a tank with Aid-Other, you'd rather I took aggro over casting my little heal. 
Thermal is a busy set. So is a good sonic, a good emp, a good kin. Pretty much a good anything. It's part of the AT.
On balance I don't see a good enough justification for changing the way the shields work except a few people saying "they're annoyingly repetitive". Well my assassin strike being interrupted or the team knocking stuff out of my melee range annoys me a great deal. I don't see assassin strike having its activation time halved or KB being changed to KD (the latter would likely cause a celebration across RI and PC ) and I suspect both would be more easy to do than what you're suggesting.
Additionally, while I know you are only talking about shields, it is pretty predictable that the next complaint will be "shields now last 8 minutes and are an AoE so why can't CM/clarity/thaw/sb/id/ir be like that?". At which point we get "CM etc doesn't need to be up 100% of the time" and "I don't want SB/ID on a melee char" "You suck" "No it alters my control" "You have better recharge" "Which I can't use because I'm either stuck on a wall or over shoot and aggro three extra mobs and cause a team wipe" "You suck" argument.
For the effort it would take to change the shields, I'd rather have a new TF coded which me and seven of my friends will enjoy.
This is my view based on my experiences of being a buffer and a buffee. I'm certain not everyone will agree but I'd appreciate it if any response contained a lot less snark than has been posted previously.
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I support the current setup not because I find it tedious, but because I find it fun. Since you find it tedious, you should play other sets. There are plenty out there that do not require buffing. Do not change the sets I find fun because you want them all to be like Radiation Emission (a set I find tedious).|
Originally Posted by Humility
The fact that people in the thread are flat out equating support with tedium speaks volumes. If has been outright said, if you don't like tedium, don't play X, Y and Z support selections.
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I wish AM would be changed to a 2 minute duration ally buff with a base 60 seconds recharge like Fortitude. I think Radiation Emission would be better that way.
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
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The difference, in my opinion is one of context, judgment and situation. Every time you use footstomp, ripper or assassin strike is likely a little different. Different targets, different terrain, different team interaction. With shields there is no judgment. There is no decision. Just a matter of targeting and buffing every 4 minutes.|
Originally Posted by Capa_Devans
So a shielder has to reapply up to 14 powers in 4 minutes. I wonder how many times footstomp is used in that time? Or Ripper? Or Assassin Strike? |
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Originally Posted by Capa_Devans
(2) Longer lasting buffs
- Depends on the length, a minute ... ok, 10 minutes ... "you've got shields, afk now" ... 20 minutes "you've got shields" *kick* - CoX has a great community but there's always going to be idiots and I don't see any need to encourage them |
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Originally Posted by Capa_Devans
A good buffer is worth their weight in gold. They keep the team up, they think fast, react fast and most of the time you don't even know they're there. I don't think increasing the buff length is going to improve someone's playskills. I don't want a wanna-be blaster on the team when I expect and invited a buffer.
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Originally Posted by Capa_Devans
Thermal is a busy set. So is a good sonic, a good emp, a good kin. Pretty much a good anything. It's part of the AT.
On balance I don't see a good enough justification for changing the way the shields work except a few people saying "they're annoyingly repetitive". Well my assassin strike being interrupted or the team knocking stuff out of my melee range annoys me a great deal. I don't see assassin strike having its activation time halved or KB being changed to KD (the latter would likely cause a celebration across RI and PC ) and I suspect both would be more easy to do than what you're suggesting. |
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Originally Posted by Capa_Devans
Additionally, while I know you are only talking about shields, it is pretty predictable that the next complaint will be "shields now last 8 minutes and are an AoE so why can't CM/clarity/thaw/sb/id/ir be like that?". At which point we get "CM etc doesn't need to be up 100% of the time" and "I don't want SB/ID on a melee char" "You suck" "No it alters my control" "You have better recharge" "Which I can't use because I'm either stuck on a wall or over shoot and aggro three extra mobs and cause a team wipe" "You suck" argument.
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Originally Posted by Capa_Devans
For the effort it would take to change the shields, I'd rather have a new TF coded which me and seven of my friends will enjoy.
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Originally Posted by Capa_Devans
This is my view based on my experiences of being a buffer and a buffee. I'm certain not everyone will agree but I'd appreciate it if any response contained a lot less snark than has been posted previously.
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Meh. The four minute duration and quick cast has never been a problem to me. In fact, I think for what it does, it's just about right.
What I hate is the two minute duration of Speed Boost. :/ If it was four minute duration like the other shield sets, I'd actually beable to play a KIN.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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But how would I benefit from the recharge in AM? That would cause a great deal of consternation amongst fans of Rad.
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Originally Posted by StratoNexus
I support the current setup not because I find it tedious, but because I find it fun. Since you find it tedious, you should play other sets. There are plenty out there that do not require buffing. Do not change the sets I find fun because you want them all to be like Radiation Emission (a set I find tedious).
I wish AM would be changed to a 2 minute duration ally buff with a base 60 seconds recharge like Fortitude. I think Radiation Emission would be better that way. |
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There is no such existing power in the game, nor does Thaw do that.|
Originally Posted by Humility
We already know the game has coding that exists so that when POWER X goes off, it removes EFFECT Y as shown by powers like thaw.
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What does Thaw do? At level 50 on a Corruptor, it subtracts mag 10.38 from your stun/held/etc. status. What does, say, Char do to you? It adds mag 3 to your held status.
Thaw doesn't remove anything, it merely modifies a value, exactly the same way defense buffs and debuffs do.
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Originally Posted by Maelwys
Speed Boost and Inertial Reduction could really do with increased durations though. it DOES get very tedious to reapply buffs for Full Teams whenever they only last for two minutes or less (60 secs, in IR's case!) and similarly for Fortitude, Clear Mind, and Clarify.
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As for Fortitude/Clear Mind/Clarity/etc., why would you ever bother to maintain that on all of your teammates? That's beyond silly, if you ask me. Sure, stick it on the squishies when you run into a pack of Mentalists or something, but non-squishies don't need it, and many encounters don't warrant it at all, even for squishy characters. On the other hand, it's just as useful to use after your teammate has been mezzed, to get them back into the fight.
http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
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It was late, I was tired and crotchety, in my defence |
Originally Posted by halfflat
Regardless of the merits or otherwise of changing how these buffs work, this is a nonsense argument. If it were valid, then there would be no reason to change anything in the game at all, and we'd be at I1 with bugfixes.
Further, mechanics are not a simple binary 'fine' or 'not fine'. It turns out that something can start good, and be made better! Or something can be fun and annoying by turns! This. |
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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Originally Posted by Fleeting Whisper
There is no such existing power in the game, nor does Thaw do that.
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Resurrect does that.
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See "People may not want them."|
Originally Posted by Humility
(1)Give it a generous area, enough to cover a good sized room [and see point 3]
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| (2)I was speaking in reference ONLY TO DEFENSE/RESIST SHIELDS. No one has reason to not want these, |
** (I was one of these, and one of the more vocal proponents to change this, arguing for it for a year and a half before it finally got changed. Having this as an AOE buff that couldn't skip would have led to me dropping teams frequently and/or either me or an SG mate being left off SG teams. Yeah. "Fun." )
Gee, looks like several reasons to not want shields.
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| even if you don't need them there is nothing detrimental about having them. |
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| (3)Recreate the power with the following functionality: When you cast the shield buff it creates an invisible pet entity at your location (which then follows you) which exists for 20 seconds. Every 2 seconds it sends out an aoe which will cast the shield on anyone within range. |
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| There ya go, no need to call for a team gather and since you can move closer to anyone out of range, you won't miss anyone unless they are a very hefty distance away from you. Problem solved. |
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| Thermal for instance has a lot of interesting things in the set. It is much more than *just* shields. So people should be denied enjoyment playing thermal because a core part of the set is based around a bad mechanic? |
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| These are the things that should define a good player. Not mindlessly recasting the same 2 buffs every 4 minutes for hours on end. |
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| You're right, telling anyone that they shouldn't play a full robust interesting powerset simply because the shield buffing is badly done is a terrible approach. It is blindingly obvious. |
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| I've seen only your opinion, |
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| not anything even vaguely factual to indicate that it would damage gameplay. |
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| You don't like the idea, everyone gets it. You've prevented no evidence that changing DEFENSE and RESIST SHIELDS in such a manner would hurt the game. |
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| I'm not talking about any other buffs, and never have been. That was other people. |
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| See, here's the kicker. That's your opinion, which you're presenting as stone cold fact. The fact of the matter is, apparently these threads pop up regularly, which means that a number of people believe that changes like this would improve gameplay. Since you've presented nothing other than your opinion, presenting such as fact just makes it hard to take you seriously. |
That doesn't even go into how (else) the powers might be nerfed if this horrid idea were implemented.
And threads popping up "regularly" does not make anything more true. (See "Accuracy was nerfed" that comes up after almost every issue.)
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| Just a thought... if you don't post in the tone of an arrogant condescending *****, people might find it easier to give your feedback serious consideration. |
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Except, of course, that your change would reduce the amount of fun these sets are NOW for others. But hey, you keep ignoring that viewpoint, because obviously yours is all that matters and those of us arguing against it are just doing so to keep you down.|
Originally Posted by Humility
Upping the end cost wouldn't cripple it, and if it helped achieve the desired quality of life changes, it would be 110% worth it. Gotta toss something to the people who are pretty sure that reducing tedium will somehow cause the game to implode and cease to be fun.
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| The difference, in my opinion is one of context, judgment and situation. Every time you use footstomp, ripper or assassin strike is likely a little different. Different targets, different terrain, different team interaction. With shields there is no judgment |
"Am I surrounded by enemies? Yes? Foot stomp."
"Is the shield about to expire? Yes? Reapply."
Or I could turn that around. "You can use the shields in situations that are a little different - different team makeup, different team playstyle, different terrain." It's just as true. (Or, rather, just as "not really true.")
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| If anything, I would think that making shields a team buff instead of single target means that nuke oriented buff players would be MORE likely to actually give you your buffs. This won't change the player, it will just make it easier for them to do the tedious boring portion of their job, so those not inclined to do so would actually be more likely to if such a change happened. |
In addition, if you're calling this a team buff - or looking at your pet idea, which would likely affect *only* the team - you've just taken away the ability for my higher levels to offer shields to lowbies going into the Sewers, or through the Hollows, or other places that they tend to be appreciated.
Plus, if you're arguing at ME for "having no facts," you need to hold yourself to the same standard.
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| Opposing or supporting a change because people might as for similar treatment to other powers is a pretty weak argument. |
Silas:
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| I'd be happy with bumping Speed Boost to 4 minutes. |
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| Speed Boost and Inertial Reduction could really do with increased durations though. it DOES get very tedious to reapply buffs for Full Teams whenever they only last for two minutes or less (60 secs, in IR's case!) and similarly for Fortitude, Clear Mind, and Clarify. |
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I'm not sure this is a valid point right now. Castle is leaving or gone and there's a new person taking over powers. That person may have slightly differing views on debates that have previously been discussed. If anything, right now is the BEST time to bring up things like this again simply because of that change.| ... except, of course, that others have already asked for similar treatment for other powers in this, and other, threads. |
I've been considering bringing up some of the changes I would like to see, I've just been waiting for the new powers person to show up.
EDIT: Shoot, I should have done something bigger for my 1000th post. Maybe some cussing or giant yellow font stuff! Nah, I'll stick with this.
Add me to those saying "Don't change it." I like it right now because of all the choice I DO have with it. I don't find it "tedious and boring" in the least - and you have to stop putting that in like it's a fact that it is. That's a preference or an opinion.
Also, if you'd stop ignoring or just brushing off the complaints, maybe you wouldn't have irritated him to the point where he put it in inch high bright yellow letters. Just a thought. You ask to be treated with respect, don't just dismiss the oposing point of view like it reads like you have been. It doesn't sound like you've really thought through what this change would do past "I would like it, so everyone else obviously would," tbh.
Wanted: Origin centric story arcs.
If you've only played an AT once (one set combo) and "hate" it - don't give up. Roll a different combo. It may just be those sets not clicking for you.
It's not tedious to me either. It's only a bit tedious when I'm used to playing a cold and then start playing a FF'er, as the rebuff downtime is almost double.
I think the best and easiest thing to do would be to make all the shield buffs the same in terms of cast time. Make it a short cast time, like Cold and Thermal's cast times. I don't think FF and Sonic are at risk of becoming overpowered because of that.
While we're at it, make Speed Boost's cast time match that of two shield buffs, and make its duration the same as shield buffs.
I can't see any harm in that, and all the buff sets will have a more familiar and comfortable feel as you play them.
Mains (Freedom) @Auroxis
Auroxis - Emp/Rad/Power Defender Pylon Video Soloing an AV
Pelvic Thunder - SS/Elec/Mu Brute
Sorajin - Elec/Nin Stalker
Neuropain - Sonic/Mental/Elec Blaster
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*ding ding ding* We have a winnah!|
Originally Posted by Stormbird
maybe you wouldn't have irritated him to the point where he put it in inch high bright yellow letters
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(Admittedly, part of it was a bit of irritation from work, too, which crept into that.)
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Originally Posted by Auroxis
I think the best and easiest thing to do would be to make all the shield buffs the same in terms of cast time. Make it a short cast time, like Cold and Thermal's cast times. I don't think FF and Sonic are at risk of becoming overpowered because of that.
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I like the way buff shields work, 'tedium' is a really subjective term. Strange how that seems to go past all the proponents of this change, while simultaniously accusing people arguing against it of 'opinions' and 'no facts'.
I wouldn't be opposed to changes if there were better alternatives, but I haven't seen any in this thread so far.
Speedboost is a power I do have some problems with, but I remedy that by just applying it before big battles, or on people who are obviously in need of some endurance. Kinetics has much more useful tools than speedboost anyway.
@True Metal
Co-leader of Callous Crew SG. Based on Union server.
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You wouldn't. But I don't really want them to change how AM works, because when I want to play a buffer I can grab my FF, Emp, Kin, or Sonic. I would indeed prefer the AM I proposed, but that does not seem a good enough reason to alter its current methodology.
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Originally Posted by ketch
But how would I benefit from the recharge in AM? That would cause a great deal of consternation amongst fans of Rad.
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Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
There is usually a few problems with threads claiming that a change is needed for X powerset(s).
Lack of positive threads: Very rarely do players start threads praising a powerset. And if someone does, it quickly gets eaten into obscurity as it usually garners few responses. The more likely thread is someone wanting a tweak or rework of the set. Now, most times when everyone comes out of the woodworks to defend said sets, they are considered to 'not be open to change' or 'not in a frame of mind to judge unbiasly' the suggestions of the person starting the thread or even 'openly hostile.'
Players don't have access to the real numbers like the Devs do: We as players cannot datamine. We can give our opinions if we feel something is wrong with a set but we cannot see the ingame numbers- how many heroes or villains have which powersets, how much playtime do those powersets get, which defensive set dies more often, which offensive/ control/ defensive set uses more endurance, what powers are taken and which are skipped.
Most thread starters don't really think thru their ideas and just throw them out there looking for support. But then they are disappointed and hurt and/or angry when the support doesn't arrive or too many people give their own opinion in direct contradiction of their own. Best thing to do: look at a situation from all sides first and comment on those points about why your suggestion is better. If you cannot see all the sides of an argument, then don't be surprised when it gets ugly.
There are numerous forums: Is this the proper forum for this discussion? Simple enough I think.
Original Ideas: Let's face it, your idea has probably been thought of by someone else and has already been discussed in some shape or form already. Forumites (defined as those peeps that inhabit the forums) have seen these discussions before and they can tend to be a bit short if you haven't done your homework already. In other words, have you searched for same topics or thought out your ideas? Patience of forumites runs thin when they have to defend their positions every other day on the same topics or when something has already been relegated to the "BAD IDEA" list.
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I can see normalizing the cast times a bit, although I am fine with how they currently are. I am actually still disappointed in the CM animation change. Totally happy that it is shorter. Very disappointed that it is the SB animation.
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Originally Posted by Auroxis
I can't see any harm in that, and all the buff sets will have a more familiar and comfortable feel as you play them.
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Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
I like how the shields sets play, as is, currently. Somedays I feel like micro-managing, some days I dont. When I don't, I just play the other buff sets that dont have single target buffs.
And remember the cottage rule.
Tedium is subjective. I enjoy applying shield buffs.
Arc#314490: Zombie Ninja Pirates!
Defiant @Grouchybeast
Death is part of my attack chain.
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Hrm, I've not heard of issues from my playing on my Shield-less Dark/Cold. Could be 'cause I'm too bust tossing out Sleet/TT/Nightfall/Benumb/HL and making mobs kittens... but nah, couldn't be. I must be a sucky player.
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Originally Posted by Stone Daemon
You're playing a support role. I don't see the problem with taking a couple seconds every 4 minutes to, y'know, fulfill that role. If you're all about the pew pew and find supporting tedious, may I introduce you to the blaster?
Oh, and yes, it does separate the good players from the bad. Bad support players don't touch/pick up their shield powers. |
I am the 99%. Occupy the World.
Minister of Infinity's Secret Police, Official Mooch of dUmb and League, Official Purveyor of Free Straws, the Most Interesting Man in the World.
http://www.change.org/petitions/ncso...city-of-heroes
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I'm pretty sure that most of us have been saying the if (general) you find it tedious, don't play. Not that it's tedious for everyone that plays their character is a support role.|
Originally Posted by Humility
The fact that people in the thread are flat out equating support with tedium speaks volumes. If has been outright said, if you don't like tedium, don't play X, Y and Z support selections.
No one sees anything wrong with that? |
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| How is tedium interesting gameplay? If the devs cannot come up with some sort of solution that doesn't involve mindlessly pressing the same 2 buttons every 4 minutes for 7+ targets, that is just flat out lazy and defending it seems like some pretty rabid fanboiism to me. |
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| Many of the other sets are considered to be extremely powerful (Rad, Dark, Kin anyone?) and they don't have the tedium of shields to get that performance (kin has SB, but this is specifically about shields in relation to performance). |
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Telling someone who is trying to get a discussion to improve gameplay "if you don't like it, don't play" is pretty offensive to be honest. It's just closed minded pointless resistance to change in the name of tradition. I've seen a number of people shout down the idea, and I've seen a number of people who know the devs innermost thoughts on the matter. What I haven't seen is any information that indicates a change making shields function like mastermind upgrades would damage gameplay in any way shape or form. So if it won't damage gameplay, and it will in fact improve gameplay for a number of people, the hostility and resistance to the idea is pretty baffling. |
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Extra lulz in the thread have been provided by the gamer e-thugs "If you don't like tedium you're bad and shouldn't play!" /thuggin EDIT: On rereading my response it seems a bit hostile. I'm not mad, just a bit surprised at the pointless mindless "NO" being shouted out here. I think it might be a matter of this having been discussed to death in the eyes of some forum regulars, in which case maybe they should just avoid threads they don't really want to be in? Just seems like a lot of "NO! Just because!" being tossed out. |
There are people out there with systems who's performance are affected by certain buffs (see Bill's comments.)
For me personally, Forcefields and some of the really horrendous colours people choose to apply to them (myself included) gives me a headache.
Anyone who thinks that they could increase the duration without affecting the Endurance cost or the power's effectiveness is deluding themselves.
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I can't quite recall the old animation, but I do remember the rooting time making things a bit tedious. Wasn't it something like a hand raised out, palm down? It was something that appeared a bit more gentle and appropriate for a power called Clear Mind. |
Originally Posted by StratoNexus
I can see normalizing the cast times a bit, although I am fine with how they currently are. I am actually still disappointed in the CM animation change. Totally happy that it is shorter. Very disappointed that it is the SB animation.
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Also, I had never really noticed the difference between cast time in Force Field v. Cold Domination and Sonic v. Thermal, but that is largely due to only having recently tried the new sets. So I did a comparison and it really did stand out. With nearly a second's difference per shield, two shields per ally, and typically seven allies to shield that makes a big difference, nearly 12 seconds. It certainly would be nice to see the cast times on those two sets reduced.
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Even when they're highly visible. |
Originally Posted by Red Valkyrja
Is has been spelled out, repeatedly, in this thread and the ones that came before it. You've apparently chosen to ignore those comments.
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Suggesting any sort of positive change without some manner of tradeoff will draw louder and more fervent cries of DOOOOOOOOOOOM than the simple act of suggesting change does
Upping the end cost wouldn't cripple it, and if it helped achieve the desired quality of life changes, it would be 110% worth it. Gotta toss something to the people who are pretty sure that reducing tedium will somehow cause the game to implode and cease to be fun.