Stop the tedium! [Constant Buff Recast]

The cottage rule doesn't apply to the suggested changes. Defense buffs would remain defense buffs, resistance remain resistance. The cottage rule is a change to the core use of the power. Energize is the perfect example. It went from just a -end cost power, to a -end cost, a heal, and a +regen power.

No.

Tedium has weight when people say that it is tedious. That is the best any of us can say. I find it tedious. I don't find it tedious. That's it. There is no objective point when something becomes tedious. It's a value judgment.

If I don't actually make a comment saying that something is tedious, no one will ever know. I've made that comment. You've made a comment to the opposite. Let's leave it at that without claiming change never happens without a magic bullet from a systems report.

Meanwhile, I will be waiting for the post from Thermal Mastermind who just can't get enough of casting shields on 8 players and 6 pets.

P.S. didn't we have this exact same debate about mezzes detoggling armor buffs some years ago? Including accusations about just trying to get powerful, statements that it shouldn't be done because the devs would "make us pay for it in some way," and claims that people who didn't like it should just avoid taking toggle powers? None of that means the change should be made, but this game has a long history of "concrete reasons" being presented showing why a change shouldn't happen, followed by that exact change with few of the originally stated consequences.

The alternative is at the character creation screen, where one has total control over the character they make.

There are many sets available that suit a wide variety of tastes. Not all of them require cyclical re-shielding.

It seems a bit ridiculous to choose to play - or to continue to play - a power set one feels to be tedious.

Pick... something... else...

There are many that choose shield sets precisely because they work the way they do.

Why should they potentially lose out on the mechanics and play style that they chose to enjoy when those that don't like how shields work can pick another set?

Changing the way shields work to suit the desires of those that don't like the sets as they are now could result in those that do no longer enjoying their characters.

It seems to me the easiest and best fix is for players to choose sets they enjoy the mechanics of, rather than trying to shoehorn sets into mechanics they enjoy.

Well thank you for the advice to reroll 4 of my 6 50s, but I think I'll pass. As it happens, I rolled them because I like playing a buffer. I tolerate the mechanics because if you want to play a buffer, you play by the mechanics that are given to you.

Actually it is a very valid argument.

Explained:

If you have a problem with something, but many other people do NOT have a problem with it, then it should not be changed just to suit YOUR desires, while ignoring the desires of the many others.

A few people saying "I don't like this" is NOT a valid reason to make a change, especially when there is a another camp saying "I like it just fine how it is". Now, if everyone said "I don't like this", it might be a different story, but I highly doubt you are going to get such a consensus.

Therefore, if you do not like buffing, you should play something else, instead of trying to get buffing sets turned into something you like, which may not be well received by those people who enjoy the sets as they are.

Simply put: The easiest solution is for the players who do not like spending time buffing to play different sets, and leave the buffing sets to the people who enjoy using them. With as many options as this game offers, I'm sure you can find some powerset that AT offers that you will enjoy.

It is not only impossible to make powersets EVERY player will enjoy, it is also foolish to try. The devs are well aware that their playerbase likes different things, they are NOT going to change their powersets around for a limited section of the playerbase, when there are other players who like it like it is already.

Those buffs are as potent as they are because of the short duration. I can all but guarantee that, if durations were increased, the potency would take a sharp drop off.

Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately.

My advice to players, in general, was if they don't like the mechanics of a set to play one with mechanics they enjoy.

Since you, in particular, have played four buffers to 50, presumably you liked the mechanics as they are well enough.

Otherwise... you would have played something else.

Soooo... I don't see how you felt my post was all about you, but feel free to indulge in that interpretation if you wish.

Anyway, as I see it, the issue is pretty simple.

Patient: Doctor, it hurts when I do that.
Doctor: Quit doing that.

Play it if you like it. If you don't, play something else. Applying cyclical shields isn't the only game in town.

You want to play a buffer but don't really want to push keys that buff all that often. That seems a contradiction.

There are ways to do that...
1) Leadership pool.
2) AoE "centered on self" buffs. (Dispersion Bubble, Sonic Dispersion, Soothing Aura)
3) Long cooldown AoE buffs (Recovery Aura, Regeneration Aura)
4) Long cooldown "pick your target and stick with it" buffs (Adrenalin Boost, Forge)

Do note that picking the single target shields in Force field is merely an option. If you don't like them, there's other abilities to pick.

I don't think you read what I was quoting when I said the argument was invalid.

Bring back toggle dropping at once! Scrappers and Brutes loved it and wouldn't have played the sets if they weren't 100% comfortable with every aspect of it.

In seriousness, I don't get why having an opinion about sets I actually play is viewed so dimly. I'd be a lot more wary of people who don't play them.

Maybe I'm being too forceful--I tend to have that problem. I'm not going to quit playing buff characters if the change doesn't happen. But as a QOL thing, I would love for a change to happen. Because there is no strategy to buffing. Its just something you do with the precision of a kitchen timer. (This change has happened in several other MMOs btw for precisely the reasons listed. It is also why I helped edit durations when I was a game developer for another game, and when I was building a server for Neverwinter Nights.)

I am unconvinced by your certainty, especially given previous game/power changes where players had been making similar assertions prior to the change.

Question: what previous game / power changes have been made that are similar to this situation?

Are you referring to the market merge? Last I checked the developers said they didn't want to merge the markets because it required a load of work on the back-end of the database, and they weren't happy with potential market events. I think the market fears have been justified given the explosive inflation of recipe prices.

Are you referring to the power customization? Last I checked the developers said they didn't have the manpower and resources to reprogram the background processing engine and produce the art resources. When the developers GOT those resources it still took them over two years and the system still doesn't cover all costume possibilities; namely Costume-Overlays such as Granite Armor, Mastermind Pets, and Kheldian Shape Shifting; pool powers; epic pool powers; and patron pool powers.

Are you referring to Enhancement Diversification? That doesn't hold up either. The original enhancement design that went into the game gave some certain power combinations over-whelming advantages and made all but a select few enhancement types worthless. Pre-ED was simply bad-game design

Are you referring to the Global Defense Nerf?

Thing is, the only situation I can come up with that even remotely fits a mega-change to how the game works / doesn't work situation presented in this thread is the PvP-rebalance from Issue 13. I think PvP's failure to draw any kind of player-base for over 3 years (2005-2008) pretty much proved that PvP couldn't use the same basis as the PvE game and draw any kind of paying player-base. The vocal PvP contingent doesn't like it, but F.Grubb and the other developers behind him took PvP play in the right direction with the changes. Note: right direction does not equal where it should wind up, or what it should be.

Now, given that the tech is now in the game to separate the PvP and PvE powers, trying to use the PvP changes from I13 as justification for anything else that occurs in the game goes beyond stupid to plain asinine.


I have to echo other players in this thread with my own thoughts:

If you don't like how a buff / debuff set plays, don't play it.

One of the problems I have with suggestions to change how buffs / debuffs work, or for most game mechanic changes for that matter, is that most of the suggestions try to revamp the game's mechanical system from the ground up largely resemble other games that just hit the market. I find it interesting that this thread was started right around DCUO wrapping up, and that some of the suggestions to deal with buff / debuffs seem to be based on what DCUO did.

Over the past 7 years CoH has basically made a name for itself by not doing what the other MMO's do. CoH isn't known for doing cliche of the month. CoH isn't known for revamp at the drop of a new title.

I really hate to bang on it, but a lot of new MMO players these days have never heard of, much less played, Verant / SOE Planetside. Under SOE the development team tasked to Planetside made the mistake of trying to implement what was popular in top selling third-person and first-person shooters. The result was a complete disaster. SOE Planetside bled subscribers as the player-base evaporated to franchises like Call of Duty, Unreal Tournament, Battlefield, Medal of Honor, and Enemy Territory. Players weren't going to hang around and pay SOE for gaming experiences that they could get in other games.

CoH is unique in how it, as a game, handles the concept of buffs and debuffs within the game world. Changing that system on an entire basis? Modeling it after what another game does? That's just going to hurt CoH as a game.

Now, I won't argue that some individual powers probably need to be re-adjusted. The really-low effect time on Increase Density for example.

However, I am also able to step back and recognize that there is a deliberate design trade-off in how those buff powers operate. A Defender or Corruptor who actively buffs team-mates and debuffs enemies will have less time to use their own attacks. A mastermind who actively buffs team-mates, bots, and debuffs enemies will have less time to micro-manage their bots. A controller who actively buffs team-mates, pets, and debuffs enemies will have less time to control a mob.

That is intentional.

Sometimes, and I realize this might be a hard concept to grasp, the cake is really a lie. You just can't have it all. There is a price to be paid. There is a trade-off. There are choices.

The impression I get from players that want to revamp the buff / debuff classes to be less intrusive is that those players want to have it all. They want to buff / debuff AND attack. They want to buff / defuff AND control. They want to buff / debuff AND Micromanage their personal army.

I seriously doubt that the developers are ever going to seriously consider a system or revamp that let's players have it all and do it all.

So you REALLY believe that we could get a massive increase in the duration of buff powers, without seeing an accompanying massive decrease in their effectiveness?

The devs seem to have decided that the balance point of those shields being as good as they are is having to recast them every 4 minutes. If the shields were more powerful, the duration would likely be shorter. If the duration was longer, the shields would be less powerful.

Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately.

I am so busted. No one else could see past my scheming, but you, hero, are different than the rest. But alas, you are too late! Because once I hit Submit Reply and the Devs read my opinion about what is fun and not fun about playing my characters, I will already be on my way to becoming totally unstoppable! Nothing will ever be the same once I succeed at my master plan for a QOL change to Force Field and Thermal and Sonic Resonance. I will buff and debuff and control THE. WHOLE. WORLD.

[BRB have to go refresh shields.]

Or... maybe said players just don't want to be forced to commit the exact same keystrokes every 4 minutes without any thought process requires just so they can fulfill the core function of their chosen powerset.

There's no conspiracy here. This isn't a Nemesis plot (or is it?). Some of us just want more engaging gameplay. Literally, a trained monkey could manage this particular portion of gameplay. It's dull, uninteresting and tedious.

My fire / fire dom:

1.) Flashfire > Cages > Rain of Fire > Fireball > Acid Reflux Breath

Next spawn:

2.) If Flashfire not up then Cinders > RoF > Fireball > Acid Reflux Breath

3.) Otherwise 1

4.) Occasionally hit Dom or Hasten to break the tedium

That is, IME, every bit as repetitive, and possibly more so, than playing my FF / rad -- because I can use buffing to break up the tedium of my attack chain. But I prefer my dom. Why?

The subtext to people disliking re-buffing is, IME, that they object to clicking powers that don't cause orange numbers [edit] or provide some form of direct self benefit.

I laughed so hard at this. The funny is overwhelming.

Alt 1 2 3 4. That's usually the extent of the keys I hit at the start of every mob on my dark/dark corruptor. After that most of it is usually dead, maybe I can still get a dmg attack or 2 off on a boss. Often I don't even get that far.

4 1 2 3 1. That's what my SS brute does, for the most part. Repeat once or twice per mob, depending on the teams kill speed.

alt 1 1 3 4 2. Blaster.

All forced to commit the exact same keystrokes every few seconds without though process just so they can fulfill the core function of their chosen powersets. And for their powersets it actually holds true. As opposed to the buff sets that have a slew of other powers that fullfill other functions.

The subtext is that these powers already have 100% uptime. That is the result of their duration, cast time, endurance cost, animation time, and large benefit. It would be foolish not to put them up 100% of the time. So the question is how often do you have to do it? Right now its four or two minutes. A lot shorter than most games. The benefits of the actual power are higher. What is the right balance? We all have different opinions. Obviously.

But that's the last thing I'm going to say on this subject, because once we get on the "the whole game is unstrategic" and "all button presses are exactly the same" (not stated by you--by other contributors) train of relativistic weirdness there is no sensibility left in the discussion. Pressing a button might just as well reboot the server as summon Richard Simmons in a bunny suit.