Stop the tedium! [Constant Buff Recast]
By
-Urchin-,
Posted on: 2011-01-13 21:22 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
Quote:
If the patient is allergic to peanuts, but insists on eating PBJ sandwiches, then yes.
|
Originally Posted by Dromio
This, BTW, is the mark of a really good doctor, right?
|
Arc#314490: Zombie Ninja Pirates!
Defiant @Grouchybeast
Death is part of my attack chain.
Quote:
Well ...|
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
The subtext is that these powers already have 100% uptime. That is the result of their duration, cast time, endurance cost, animation time, and large benefit. It would be foolish not to put them up 100% of the time. So the question is how often do you have to do it? Right now its four or two minutes. A lot shorter than most games. The benefits of the actual power are higher. What is the right balance? We all have different opinions. Obviously.
|
If the baseline for the shields became one hour, SB one half hour, and mez prot 15 minutes (the current ratio is 4:2:1, I think), you'd see people with second accounts furiously PLing emps, kins, bubblers, and ringers. You'd see second account toons in RWZ and Cim. They'd be buffing people for high-end TFs ... and nothing else. They wouldn't even have to be invited to a team.
The insane whackiness a coordinated group of people could get up to is nucking futs. A team of blasters could go into the ITF with /hard/-capped defense and resistance (to all but psi); unbreakable mez protection; hard-capped recharge; endless endurance; possibly silly amounts of regen (not much mention of Regen Aura in this thread, mind you). I've done kill-all ITFs on RO teams in 50 minutes. A team of buffed sonic blasters could probably do it in half that.
To combat that level of extreme power-gaming, what would the devs do?
Quote:
Scrappy McScrapperton: Gee guys, I hate having to push these same buttons to attack these guys. It's tedious. How about, instead of pushing those buttons every so often, I have the game just do it for me?|
Originally Posted by Humility
Or... maybe said players just don't want to be forced to commit the exact same keystrokes every 4 minutes without any thought process requires just so they can fulfill the core function of their chosen powerset.
|
Now, replace the name Scrappy McScrapperton with Buffy McBufferton, and attack with buff, and it's the same thing. If you feel differently, it's a matter of perception.
The buffs need to have a noticeably short duration. This provides incentive for not only bringing the buffer along, but also to keep them alive. So hour-long buffs really aren't going to happen, both for that reason and for what BurningChick just said.
So, okay, we need to keep the buffer along and keep them alive. Why not make the clickies toggles? I don't think the game has yet had a way to have the same power toggle on seven people at once; typically that's done through PBAOEs. But the benefit of the shield buffs is that you don't need to stay close to the buffer, just so long as the shields are still up.
Okay, so let's go whole hog. Let's make a toggle that, when turned on, auto-buffs every ally on the map. Simplify the process. So what should be the endurance cost? Well, let's look at FF as an example. Deflection Shield is 7.8 end for a 4 minute buff. For a similarly balanced power, we're looking at 0.0325/s times 7 (for 7 teammates) for 0.2275/s (and no, you can't adjust it if you have fewer people on the team). That's actually in line with other toggle powers.
The problem is that the endurance cost may be in line with other toggles, but the power certainly isn't. We're talking something that covers the entire team on the entire map, regardless of line of sight, on a fire-and-forget toggle. That's powerful, and we don't have any toggle currently like that; all toggles that affect the team are only effective within a limited radius.
So what do we do? The power has to work this way for it to be a toggle yet retain the same functionality as the current clickies, so changing the implementation is out. (Changing the functionality is not really in the cards, I think; PBAOEs forcing the team to stick near the buffer are tedious for the team as a whole, not just the buffer.) That leaves us two options: either increase the end cost substantially, or else reduce the effectiveness of the power substantially. Neither is very attractive, I should think.
You see the problem with game design and balance. Change the balance one way, something else needs to give.
Personally, I wouldn't mind a small compromise: be able to increase the duration through enhancements. Schedule A or B, either one, which would allow the buffer to increase it to 6-8 minutes at the expense of endurance or potency or slots for other powers. But that would entail adding a new kind of enhancement, which has its own balance issues. But I don't think you can flat-out change the clickie to 6 or 8 minutes. I suppose it's possible without changing the team dynamic too drastically, but that requires more intel than I have available.
De minimis non curat Lex Luthor.
Quote:
This, I think, really hits it on the head.|
Originally Posted by Humility
The difference, in my opinion is one of context, judgment and situation. Every time you use footstomp, ripper or assassin strike is likely a little different. Different targets, different terrain, different team interaction. With shields there is no judgment. There is no decision. Just a matter of targeting and buffing every 4 minutes.
|
Yes, as others have noted, a lot of things do come down to hitting the same buttons repeatedly. The variance seems to come up in what's required for maximum performance. For the single-target buffs, this may vary with team composition, but is essentially static for the life of the team - the maximum is to have everyone who wants the buff to have it, and everyone who doesn't want it to not have it, all the time.
On the other hand, unless you're capable of consistently defeating entire spawns in x clicks regardless of circumstances, things do get a little more complicated. When my Dark Melee/Regen scrapper fights a Master Illusionist, there's a big difference between when I fight smart and when I fight stupid, in that the latter involves trips to the hospital. My Elec/Rad controller to maintain survivability has to avoid using some parts of her AoE damage chain in order to maintain survivability. My Katana/SR scrapper... okay, that gets pretty repetitive. But even then there's at least a question of "Do I go for the bosses first, or the minions?" and if I should have gone for the minions first, I will regret not having done so.
As for the "If you find single-target buffs tedious, why don't you play a set without?" line... What if you didn't know? I didn't team much with my /Kin controller until the late 30s. Speed Boosting the Imps (during the period where this was potentially useful) for a hard target fight was no big deal. I had no idea that trying to keep SB up on a team would drive me so crazy. So now I do, in fact, avoid the shield sets, because as noted elsewhere, I don't think twice the powers half as often would be an improvement. Not entirely due to this, but in large part. I'm wary of even doing a FF or Thermal mastermind, even though my biggest issue would not come up much in solo play.
(My biggest issue? Not having to reapply SB every two minutes actually. More how often I'll be trying to apply it and my target will have either gone out of range, or around a corner. And once I catch up with them, the next person will have gone off. Sometimes it feels like everybody's playing "Avoid the Buff". If the actual application was less of a hassle, the duration wouldn't bother me at all.)
-Morgan.
Quote:
The most obvious and recent example would be making Fitness inherent. A number of people were opposed to it for the (apparently) sole reason that "if they make Fitness inherent I guarantee you they'll nerf it in some way to compensate". The prediction did not come true. There's been others.|
Originally Posted by je_saist
Question: what previous game / power changes have been made that are similar to this situation?
|
(Apologies if I didn't respond to your whole post but it was quite large, and I got the impression early on that you'd misunderstood exactly which aspect of Claws' argument I was unconvinced by).
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
So you REALLY believe that we could get a massive increase in the duration of buff powers, without seeing an accompanying massive decrease in their effectiveness?
The devs seem to have decided that the balance point of those shields being as good as they are is having to recast them every 4 minutes. If the shields were more powerful, the duration would likely be shorter. If the duration was longer, the shields would be less powerful. |
I'm not sure I'd advocate "massive" increases (though I suppose that depends on your interpretation of massive), but I'd definitely like to see stuff like ID or SB increased a bit (and in anticipation: complaints from those who do not want those buffs is a whole other thread), and I'd not say no to a further increase in the shield buffs.
edit: I'll expand on not advocating "massive" increases in that I agree that durations of e.g. 30 minutes would create the scenario of people logging on buffbot alts before a mission, buffing the team, then switching back to the char they really want to play. It was common practice in the MUDs I used to play. I'd probably favour the mastermind-pet-upgrade style aoe effect instead, though it'd need coding not to affect the caster and the unwanted speedboost issue would likely need addressed. Or just don't make the increase that massive, 1.5x to 2x would improve quality of life without being hugely abusable.
Quote:
This needs to be patched in.|
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
But that's the last thing I'm going to say on this subject, because once we get on the "the whole game is unstrategic" and "all button presses are exactly the same" (not stated by you--by other contributors) train of relativistic weirdness there is no sensibility left in the discussion. Pressing a button might just as well reboot the server as summon Richard Simmons in a bunny suit.
|
Now.
The only question at that point becomes... is he here to fight the Nemesis Plot? Or is he part of it? /queue ominous music
Quote:
Everyone was taking Stamina because they needed that level of endurance recovery. Taking away a strong solution and giving a weak solution, even if it was free, would not have been satisfactory.|
Originally Posted by Biowraith
The most obvious and recent example would be making Fitness inherent. A number of people were opposed to it for the (apparently) sole reason that "if they make Fitness inherent I guarantee you they'll nerf it in some way to compensate". The prediction did not come true.
|
In this case, you're taking away the risk of shields dropping every 4 minutes. A more stable but weaker buff is absolutely keeping in balance. Again, I suppose it's possible that they might conclude extending the duration won't hurt balance, but this isn't as "dire" a situation as Fitness. (I still don't really agree with the decision, but that's done and gone.)
De minimis non curat Lex Luthor.
How about the "nerf" half of the request quality-of-life-buff (which it'd be massive, I'd be a lot more apt to play shield types) be that shields don't stack from the same caster anymore... even when you zone.
I'm just saying, I could totally live without the 100% immunity to mobs on pretty much any character, squishy or melee, that the short-duration double-stack gives if I found shielders/buffers more fun to play.
I thought the buff refresh if a teammate is within your big bubble (or fog/mist) to the max 4 minute duration was a great idea. Still worth having the buffer, but they don't have to be a slave to the clock, nor does it force the buff on everyone, yet they are still in danger to keep the buffs up, and it doesn't unduly benefit botting the buffer. (Really, if you're botting them like that, you just bot the whole thing with auto-keypress tools. It isn't like it'd be substantially harder to do than auto-following.)
Yes it requires code. And? So did the alpha slot. Anyone want to shout it down since it required code?
I mentioned a few pages back but I still think an easy and elegant (though probably a bit time consuming to program) solution would be to simply have the buffs auto-reapply when their duration is up by taking the End from the caster, if the caster is still on the team and in the same zone. So, it doesn't reapply when they're out of zone, out of team, or dead. This addresses a number of problems with other implementations.
1) Doesn't allow people to keep non-team members buffed for longer than they can now. There would no worry about these PLed buffers just zone sitting in RWZ or Cim, making teams invincible. It also doesn't mean people will dump the buffers after they get buffed.
2) Doesn't require a PBAOE that would make the sets even more annoying, regardless of buff duration
3) Keeps the power balanced in the End per Duration category. In fact, it doesn't change this dynamic at all.
I also think this brings a number of other benefits to the table as well, besides just reducing "tedium". What you're looking at is:
1) Slower and less experienced players would be more free to use their blast, control and other powers. You'd probably get more mileage out of those FF Defenders that either don't have the twitch reflexes and multi-tasking capabilities to focus on the battle and everyone's shields and you might see more effective use of FF's knockback and repel powers.
2) It'd be a lot more enjoyable for those who find it tedious. And, as evidenced by this thread, there is a portion of people who do find it tedious. The people who don't mind the tedium would just have a little more time freed up to blast without the change making these powers weaker or less convenient (as I'd fear the change to PBAOEs or upping the duration would do)
Edit: Also, in this proposed change, I'd propose the ability for the caster and the recipient to set the power to "Do not renew".
But you can't control when the end gets taken from you. That makes it a pretty bad idea. I know I've had moments on my Shield and SR characters where I was hurting for end...then before I could throw another attack, the clickie mez kicked in and sucked up that end I needed, because I had forgotten I'd put it on auto. And when it tries to pull end that you don't have 14 times in a row? You're boned.
De minimis non curat Lex Luthor.
Quote:
Which simply means you need to pay attention and manage your resources appropriately. Good players can easily do so, and bad players will still be bad it just won't involve the tedious set of keystrokes to demonstrate that fact.
|
Originally Posted by Bosstone
But you can't control when the end gets taken from you. That makes it a pretty bad idea. I know I've had moments on my Shield and SR characters where I was hurting for end...then before I could throw another attack, the clickie mez kicked in and sucked up that end I needed, because I had forgotten I'd put it on auto. And when it tries to pull end that you don't have 14 times in a row? You're boned.
|
Quote:
One problem is they will have to rewrite how buffs work. Buffs only keep track of the caster until a player zones. So even if you both zone at the same time the system would not know who to take the end from for the auto recast. Also if you quite team and join back before expiration, wouldn't you be a new team mate as well effecting how the power works for 4 minutes.|
Originally Posted by BlackBellatrix
I mentioned a few pages back but I still think an easy and elegant (though probably a bit time consuming to program) solution would be to simply have the buffs auto-reapply when their duration is up by taking the End from the caster, if the caster is still on the team and in the same zone. So, it doesn't reapply when they're out of zone, out of team, or dead. This addresses a number of problems with other implementations.
1) Doesn't allow people to keep non-team members buffed for longer than they can now. There would no worry about these PLed buffers just zone sitting in RWZ or Cim, making teams invincible. It also doesn't mean people will dump the buffers after they get buffed. 2) Doesn't require a PBAOE that would make the sets even more annoying, regardless of buff duration 3) Keeps the power balanced in the End per Duration category. In fact, it doesn't change this dynamic at all. I also think this brings a number of other benefits to the table as well, besides just reducing "tedium". What you're looking at is: 1) Slower and less experienced players would be more free to use their blast, control and other powers. You'd probably get more mileage out of those FF Defenders that either don't have the twitch reflexes and multi-tasking capabilities to focus on the battle and everyone's shields and you might see more effective use of FF's knockback and repel powers. 2) It'd be a lot more enjoyable for those who find it tedious. And, as evidenced by this thread, there is a portion of people who do find it tedious. The people who don't mind the tedium would just have a little more time freed up to blast without the change making these powers weaker or less convenient (as I'd fear the change to PBAOEs or upping the duration would do) Edit: Also, in this proposed change, I'd propose the ability for the caster and the recipient to set the power to "Do not renew". |
This is also a major problem for any longer duration idea. The way the system works is you can buff at a mission entrance, then enter and rebuff and stack your own buffs. Longer durations make this even more over powered.
Dirges
Quote:
Just like how I'm boned when I am in a prolonged fight on my /DA Scrapper and I have 9 toggles running, right?|
Originally Posted by Bosstone
But you can't control when the end gets taken from you. That makes it a pretty bad idea. I know I've had moments on my Shield and SR characters where I was hurting for end...then before I could throw another attack, the clickie mez kicked in and sucked up that end I needed, because I had forgotten I'd put it on auto. And when it tries to pull end that you don't have 14 times in a row? You're boned.
|
How many times has endurance prevented you from shielding your allies as a buffer? I can count the number of times on one hand, and that's generally as my Earth/Sonic controller. Just, like I recommended in my post, turn the auto-renew off if it looks like you're going to be end hungry and just be conscious of the fact. It's not much different from running Hasten or Rage or toggles.
Quote:
To be honest, I don't know much about how the code works. I would assume they would have a way to have a tag on the buff that says something like if(playername) is onteam then reapply buff and have the buff reapplying be based on the player name but like I said, I haven't seen the internal code, so I wouldn't know if it'd work.
|
Originally Posted by Dirges
One problem is they will have to rewrite how buffs work. Buffs only keep track of the caster until a player zones. So even if you both zone at the same time the system would not know who to take the end from for the auto recast. Also if you quite team and join back before expiration, wouldn't you be a new team mate as well effecting how the power works for 4 minutes.
This is also a major problem for any longer duration idea. The way the system works is you can buff at a mission entrance, then enter and rebuff and stack your own buffs. Longer durations make this even more over powered. |
NO.
I LIKE how the buffing powers currently work.
Do not change them. The changes I've seen so far would make playing a buffer UNFUN!
I like that strategic element of having to decide who I buff on the fly.
DO NOT make the AOE, do not increase their duration/end cost. Etc.
I LIKE how buffing currently works.
Keep it as is please.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
Quote:
I disagree. That's pretty much all I can say. I dislike the way it currently works.
|
Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
NO.
I LIKE how the buffing powers currently work. Do not change them. The changes I've seen so far would make playing a buffer UNFUN! I like that strategic element of having to decide who I buff on the fly. DO NOT make the AOE, do not increase their duration/end cost. Etc. I LIKE how buffing currently works. Keep it as is please. |
Quote:
Your solution doesn't account for the opportunity cost of shielding, and the tactical ramifications that may arise. Part of the cost of shielding is that while you are doing that, you are unable to do other things such as blast or control. As it is now, this cost scales with the size of the team, and is especially noticeable for MMs, who essentially shield two teams. With your system, the endurance cost scales with team size as it does now, but the opportunity cost is mostly negated after the initial application.|
Originally Posted by BlackBellatrix
I mentioned a few pages back but I still think an easy and elegant (though probably a bit time consuming to program) solution would be to simply have the buffs auto-reapply when their duration is up by taking the End from the caster, if the caster is still on the team and in the same zone. So, it doesn't reapply when they're out of zone, out of team, or dead. This addresses a number of problems with other implementations.
1) Doesn't allow people to keep non-team members buffed for longer than they can now. There would no worry about these PLed buffers just zone sitting in RWZ or Cim, making teams invincible. It also doesn't mean people will dump the buffers after they get buffed. 2) Doesn't require a PBAOE that would make the sets even more annoying, regardless of buff duration 3) Keeps the power balanced in the End per Duration category. In fact, it doesn't change this dynamic at all. I also think this brings a number of other benefits to the table as well, besides just reducing "tedium". What you're looking at is: 1) Slower and less experienced players would be more free to use their blast, control and other powers. You'd probably get more mileage out of those FF Defenders that either don't have the twitch reflexes and multi-tasking capabilities to focus on the battle and everyone's shields and you might see more effective use of FF's knockback and repel powers. 2) It'd be a lot more enjoyable for those who find it tedious. And, as evidenced by this thread, there is a portion of people who do find it tedious. The people who don't mind the tedium would just have a little more time freed up to blast without the change making these powers weaker or less convenient (as I'd fear the change to PBAOEs or upping the duration would do) Edit: Also, in this proposed change, I'd propose the ability for the caster and the recipient to set the power to "Do not renew". |
As such, this change amounts to a buff, which is fine.. if it is felt the sets need a buff. If not, the new hands-off approach would have to be offset with an additional cost to the player.
Further, the opportunity cost of shielding isn't simply represented by direct costs only to the player, but also influence how events unfold around him in critical situations.
In very difficult encounters a shielder may be in a situation where he has to decide between re-shielding Hero X or using one of his other abilities for which there is immediate need. With your system, such critical choices will never need to be made. Will that make shield sets more tedious in the end?
I suppose though, in way, it would make shielding similar to Willpower for melee archetypes.. Toggle and forget, and focus on using your other abilities. Lots of people like Willpower, so maybe having fire and forget shielding would greatly appeal... to some.
I'd personally be more attracted to making a shielding character if your idea was implemented, as I see these sets as a bit too fussy for me as they are.
However, some current shielders in this thread have posted they're content with the current system and they may be less enthused with your idea.
For some, having more time to use their other powers isn't why they chose these sets. For some, actively shielding is what they want to do. Replacing that with automatic shielding and more active use of their other powers may, to them, be a poor substitute.
What one finds tedious another finds enjoyable.
Perhaps, what could be done, is to leave some shield sets as they are now... cycle-based shielding... and change some shield sets (or introduce new ones) that are effectively toggle-based shielding, working in the manner that you describe.
Perhaps adding new ones would be best. It might be easier to add new archetypes than to rebalance old ones, and players wouldn't be faced with major changes to existing characters. Either way, it would give more options to players for shielders.
Quote:
If the option were given to have them as AOEs I would be behind this. But other than that no, I do not think you change how buffs work (which would probably come with nerfs) just because some folks don't like buffing.|
Originally Posted by BlackBellatrix
I disagree. That's pretty much all I can say. I dislike the way it currently works.
|
And its some as I constantly see buffing toons on tfs and sfs. I'd bet money that there are more people fine with the way it currently works than there are those that aren't. Hell a large network of sgs built their playstyle AROUND how buffs and debuffs currently work. That tells me that this "problem" is far exaggerated than the reality. I don't consider how buffing currently works to be tedium or a problem.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
Quote:
Fitness isn't not the only time that reasoning has been used to oppose a suggested change, just the most obvious and recent. In the case of inherent Fitness, it's actually made us more powerful rather than less.|
Originally Posted by Bosstone
Everyone was taking Stamina because they needed that level of endurance recovery. Taking away a strong solution and giving a weak solution, even if it was free, would not have been satisfactory.
In this case, you're taking away the risk of shields dropping every 4 minutes. A more stable but weaker buff is absolutely keeping in balance. Again, I suppose it's possible that they might conclude extending the duration won't hurt balance, but this isn't as "dire" a situation as Fitness. (I still don't really agree with the decision, but that's done and gone.) |
I'd also question exactly how much "risk" you're taking away - it's already pretty trivial to keep a team perma-bubbled (tedious at times which is why people sometimes request this change, but still pretty trivial). The shields aren't "unstable" - with a simple timer you can predict exactly when they'll fail, and even without you get a graphical warning early enough to ensure no actual downtime in buff. Increasing duration would increase quality of life but not really increase power levels (you're getting the same +def, and unattentive players aside it's usually going to be perma or close to it either way), whereas decreasing +def would definitely decrease power levels whatever the duration - on a powerset that many already consider to be somewhat struggling to compete with other buff/debuff sets. Sounds like weak solution vs strong solution to me.
But I want to stress, I'm not saying that a buff duration increase *definitely would not* mean a reduction in buff strength - it might. I'm not even arguing that we really must get an increase - it'd be nice, but I can see some potential pitfalls and I can cope with the current setup.
I'm just arguing against the assertion that it most definitely *would* result in a lower buff strength. It's a prediction that's been made often enough in similar scenarios and then failed to come true often enough that it's just not a given. Sometimes a buff comes without a nerf - and in this case, the buff is far more to quality of life than it is (if at all) to actual character power levels.
(Someone with better memory than me - did they not already increase Force Field and Sonic buffs' durations? I have this vague but nagging memory of them starting out as 2 minute buffs)
Quote:
The only thing I'll say is that some saw the lack of more slots when stamina went inherent as a semi nerf. There were people arguing that they wanted more slots, which the devs were opposed to.|
Originally Posted by Biowraith
Fitness isn't not the only time that reasoning has been used to oppose a suggested change, just the most obvious and recent. In the case of inherent Fitness, it's actually made us more powerful rather than less.
I'd also question exactly how much "risk" you're taking away - it's already pretty trivial to keep a team perma-bubbled (tedious at times which is why people sometimes request this change, but still pretty trivial). The shields aren't "unstable" - with a simple timer you can predict exactly when they'll fail, and even without you get a graphical warning early enough to ensure no actual downtime in buff. Increasing duration would increase quality of life but not really increase power levels (you're getting the same +def, and unattentive players aside it's usually going to be perma or close to it either way), whereas decreasing +def would definitely decrease power levels whatever the duration - on a powerset that many already consider to be somewhat struggling to compete with other buff/debuff sets. Sounds like weak solution vs strong solution to me. But I want to stress, I'm not saying that a buff duration increase *definitely would not* mean a reduction in buff strength - it might. I'm not even arguing that we really must get an increase - it'd be nice, but I can see some potential pitfalls and I can cope with the current setup. I'm just arguing against the assertion that it most definitely *would* result in a lower buff strength. It's a prediction that's been made often enough in similar scenarios and then failed to come true often enough that it's just not a given. Sometimes a buff comes without a nerf - and in this case, the buff is far more to quality of life than it is (if at all) to actual character power levels. (Someone with better memory than me - did they not already increase Force Field and Sonic buffs' durations? I have this vague but nagging memory of them starting out as 2 minute buffs) |
So I'm inclined to say that in the specific instance of increasing the duration of buffs SOME reduction of some other aspect WOULD occur. Especially with comments made by castle (Castle no longer being here doesn't really matter as someone above him would have to approve such a change) how buffing debuffing trivializes a lot of content. The devs at one point ALREADY tried to stop buffs from STACKING. (Technical aspects stopped them from pushing this through) See also how DR hits buffs in PVP.
All that evidence above tells me that it's a bit naive to think that positive changes would not come with negatives. And as a person who likes buffing AS IS, that would surely piss me off.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
Quote:
.... er... what?|
Originally Posted by je_saist
Sometimes, and I realize this might be a hard concept to grasp, the cake is really a lie. You just can't have it all. There is a price to be paid. There is a trade-off. There are choices. The impression I get from players that want to revamp the buff / debuff classes to be less intrusive is that those players want to have it all. They want to buff / debuff AND attack. They want to buff / defuff AND control. They want to buff / debuff AND Micromanage their personal army. I seriously doubt that the developers are ever going to seriously consider a system or revamp that let's players have it all and do it all. |
I was mostly along 'til you said the above. And I'm sorry, but if you think I can't buff/debuff AND attack/control NOW, you're mistaken. I do quite a bit of both, thanks, with the current setup.
If the setup were you had to constantly (and I mean 30 second duration on everything) buff/rebuff, well, then you'd have a point - but my sonic/sonic, earth/ff, ice/emp, dark/thermal, other sonic/sonic, ice/cold.... hell, let's just say "Long damn list of support characters that use these sets" have no problem buffing AND attacking, or buffing AND controlling. My characters are VERY active, TYVM, and not just re/applying buffs.
The devs likely don't want you to "buff once and forget it for the rest of the mission" (assuming it's not a very short misison.) I could see them stretching bubbles to MAYBE 5 minutes as opposed to 4 without affecting their strength or END cost, but past that, I doubt it.
tldr version: If that's "having it all," I've had it all for years now, thanks.
Quote:
Awesome reply, thanks!|
Originally Posted by -Urchin-
Your solution doesn't account for the opportunity cost of shielding, and the tactical ramifications that may arise. Part of the cost of shielding is that while you are doing that, you are unable to do other things such as blast or control. As it is now, this cost scales with the size of the team, and is especially noticeable for MMs, who essentially shield two teams. With your system, the endurance cost scales with team size as it does now, but the opportunity cost is mostly negated after the initial application.
As such, this change amounts to a buff, which is fine.. if it is felt the sets need a buff. If not, the new hands-off approach would have to be offset with an additional cost to the player. Further, the opportunity cost of shielding isn't simply represented by direct costs only to the player, but also influence how events unfold around him in critical situations. In very difficult encounters a shielder may be in a situation where he has to decide between re-shielding Hero X or using one of his other abilities for which there is immediate need. With your system, such critical choices will never need to be made. Will that make shield sets more tedious in the end? I suppose though, in way, it would make shielding similar to Willpower for melee archetypes.. Toggle and forget, and focus on using your other abilities. Lots of people like Willpower, so maybe having fire and forget shielding would greatly appeal... to some. I'd personally be more attracted to making a shielding character if your idea was implemented, as I see these sets as a bit too fussy for me as they are. However, some current shielders in this thread have posted they're content with the current system and they may be less enthused with your idea. For some, having more time to use their other powers isn't why they chose these sets. For some, actively shielding is what they want to do. Replacing that with automatic shielding and more active use of their other powers may, to them, be a poor substitute. What one finds tedious another finds enjoyable. Perhaps, what could be done, is to leave some shield sets as they are now... cycle-based shielding... and change some shield sets (or introduce new ones) that are effectively toggle-based shielding, working in the manner that you describe. Perhaps adding new ones would be best. It might be easier to add new archetypes than to rebalance old ones, and players wouldn't be faced with major changes to existing characters. Either way, it would give more options to players for shielders. |
You're right about opportunity cost. And I understand that some people like it how it is. I'm not saying it necessarily needs to be changed either. I'd argue that one set it could be changed for would be Force Field because with Cold Domination, IO Defense Buffs and, most recently, Fitness becoming an inherent, allowing more people to take Maneuvers from the Leadership pool, I've seen FF become even more marginalized. Most of the level 30+ teams I've been on have been swimming in defense. Maybe they need some other type of buff, but at least making their buffs auto-reapply would help them out.
Anyway, I'm with you. I'm not saying I think these changes should necessarily be implemented, just that I would be more likely to play a buffer if they were.
Quote:
None, because I can control when I do.
|
Originally Posted by BlackBellatrix
How many times has endurance prevented you from shielding your allies as a buffer?
|
De minimis non curat Lex Luthor.
Patient: Doctor, it hurts when I do that.
Doctor: Quit doing that.