Stop the tedium! [Constant Buff Recast]
By
-Urchin-,
Posted on: 2011-01-13 21:22 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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STANDARD|
Originally Posted by Humility
It's as simple as a y/n flag in the code
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CODE
RANT
Also buffs are fine as is. If you can't spend 30 seconds every four minutes actually buffing then why are you playing a set with buffs at all?
I'll take a bit of tedium in exchange for being loved and admired by all around me.
De minimis non curat Lex Luthor.
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/this.|
Originally Posted by Stone Daemon
You're playing a support role. I don't see the problem with taking a couple seconds every 4 minutes to, y'know, fulfill that role
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shift-1, 8, 9, shift-2, 8, 9, shift-4 (assuming you're in the #3 slot,) 8, 9 - etc. Done quickly, go back to blasting/controlling/whatever. Doesn't take that long.
If you find buffing tedious, don't play a buffer.
If you find being squishy tedious, don't play something squishy.
If you don't like melee, don't play a tank/scrapper/brute/stalker.
If you don't like control, don't play a controller/dominator.
Amazingly enough, people do this *all the time* and delete their tanks/scrappers/defenders/corruptors/controllers/etc.
If you want to play "support" but not deal with this type of buff, look into Rad, Dark, Traps, etc. There are other options.
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See prior comments for (a) why that change went in - a reason not a part of Defender/Controller/Corruptor play, and (b) the problems associated.|
Originally Posted by Obscure Blade
I've liked the idea of changing single target shields to work like the newer Mastermind upgrades since the Mastermind change went it.
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| Yes, it *is* that tedious to a lot of people; the majority I suspect. How tedious something is is a completely subjective thing. |
Besides. It's pushing buttons. You have something else targeted. How is this less tedious than pushing buttons at enemies?
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Naaah...that would, y'know, require too much tolerance and common sense! You're asking people to do that on the internet? What's wrong with you?!|
Originally Posted by Nihilii
Here's an idea : why don't people who dislike buffing just play other powersets, rather than try to nerf buffing powersets for everyone?
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Short version; No. They're fine as they are. If they weren't, they'd have been changed. Don't like it? Well, don't play 'em. Easy.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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Regardless of the merits or otherwise of changing how these buffs work, this is a nonsense argument. If it were valid, then there would be no reason to change anything in the game at all, and we'd be at I1 with bugfixes.|
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
Short version; No. They're fine as they are. If they weren't, they'd have been changed. Don't like it? Well, don't play 'em. Easy.
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Further, mechanics are not a simple binary 'fine' or 'not fine'. It turns out that something can start good, and be made better! Or something can be fun and annoying by turns!
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Originally Posted by Obscure Blade
"balance by tedium" is poor game design.
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I wish any time someone brought up a personal take on things, people wouldn't just dismiss it altogether.
I'm pretty much in agreement with most that are fine with how it is, but...
I have wondered if it would be okay to bump the duration of those 4 minute shield powers to 5 minutes or 5-8 minutes.
While one extra minute may not seem like a lot, I think it could offer just enough time to subtract a little bit of the borderline tedium some players feel from the 4 minute timers.
Going up to 8 minutes... I'm not so sure.
I don't think the effects of the powers would need to be lowered with such an increase (at least, not for a 5 minute duration).
Any thoughts/reasons why a slight increase would be bad? (not saying it should or shouldn't happen, but I, personally, could see value in it, at a glance)
@Zethustra
"Now at midnight all the agents and the superhuman crew come out
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
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If you increase it by a little it likely wouldn't matter as people will either want more or not care.|
Originally Posted by Electric-Knight
I wish any time someone brought up a personal take on things, people wouldn't just dismiss it altogether.
I'm pretty much in agreement with most that are fine with how it is, but... I have wondered if it would be okay to bump the duration of those 4 minute shield powers to 5 minutes or 5-8 minutes. While one extra minute may not seem like a lot, I think it could offer just enough time to subtract a little bit of the borderline tedium some players feel from the 4 minute timers. Going up to 8 minutes... I'm not so sure. I don't think the effects of the powers would need to be lowered with such an increase (at least, not for a 5 minute duration). Any thoughts/reasons why a slight increase would be bad? (not saying it should or shouldn't happen, but I, personally, could see value in it, at a glance) |
If you increase it by a lot then double buffing and cast time per minute becomes a potential balance issue, which isn't something a dev wants.
I'm all for making SB in line with the shield buffs duration and increasing its cast time in return, but you honestly don't want the devs to take a look at kinetics.
Mains (Freedom) @Auroxis
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Neuropain - Sonic/Mental/Elec Blaster
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Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
Dev thoughts: Their strength/utility is balanced in part by their duration.
Player thoughts: Don't like it, don't play a buff set. It's really *not* that tedious. Prioritize a bit, as well. Hell no. (1) Do it that way and I have to stop the team to apply them. (2) Do it that way and people who DON'T want a buff get them anyway. (3) Do it that way and people I *Do* want to buff, who may be out of range that moment, miss the buff and have to wait - yet I've still burned that end. Masterminds got that buff because they essentially *could not play* until they finished setting up. Pre-AOE-buff, it'd be like throwing a timer on a blaster so they'd have their first Tier1 blast right away, the next few powers opening up a minute into the mission, and the final (and their secondary) opening up two minutes in. It was a massive problem... for that AT, and for anyone teaming with them. |
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Originally Posted by Nihilii
Here's an idea : why don't people who dislike buffing just play other powersets, rather than try to nerf buffing powersets for everyone?
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Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
/this.
shift-1, 8, 9, shift-2, 8, 9, shift-4 (assuming you're in the #3 slot,) 8, 9 - etc. Done quickly, go back to blasting/controlling/whatever. Doesn't take that long. If you find buffing tedious, don't play a buffer. If you find being squishy tedious, don't play something squishy. If you don't like melee, don't play a tank/scrapper/brute/stalker. If you don't like control, don't play a controller/dominator. Amazingly enough, people do this *all the time* and delete their tanks/scrappers/defenders/corruptors/controllers/etc. If you want to play "support" but not deal with this type of buff, look into Rad, Dark, Traps, etc. There are other options. |
These are pretty much my thoughts on playing a support role.
I'd certainly like the shield powers in the Mastermind sets to have longer durations or turned into PBAoEs.
Branching Paragon Police Department Epic Archetype, please!
The fact that people in the thread are flat out equating support with tedium speaks volumes. If has been outright said, if you don't like tedium, don't play X, Y and Z support selections.
No one sees anything wrong with that?
How is tedium interesting gameplay? If the devs cannot come up with some sort of solution that doesn't involve mindlessly pressing the same 2 buttons every 4 minutes for 7+ targets, that is just flat out lazy and defending it seems like some pretty rabid fanboiism to me.
Many of the other sets are considered to be extremely powerful (Rad, Dark, Kin anyone?) and they don't have the tedium of shields to get that performance (kin has SB, but this is specifically about shields in relation to performance).
Telling someone who is trying to get a discussion to improve gameplay "if you don't like it, don't play" is pretty offensive to be honest. It's just closed minded pointless resistance to change in the name of tradition.
I've seen a number of people shout down the idea, and I've seen a number of people who know the devs innermost thoughts on the matter. What I haven't seen is any information that indicates a change making shields function like mastermind upgrades would damage gameplay in any way shape or form.
So if it won't damage gameplay, and it will in fact improve gameplay for a number of people, the hostility and resistance to the idea is pretty baffling.
Extra lulz in the thread have been provided by the gamer e-thugs "If you don't like tedium you're bad and shouldn't play!" /thuggin
EDIT: On rereading my response it seems a bit hostile. I'm not mad, just a bit surprised at the pointless mindless "NO" being shouted out here. I think it might be a matter of this having been discussed to death in the eyes of some forum regulars, in which case maybe they should just avoid threads they don't really want to be in? Just seems like a lot of "NO! Just because!" being tossed out.
I think Speed Boost should have its duration halved and when you cast it at someone, pop up a dialog box that asks "Are you sure you want to do this? They're going to go really fast!" Because clearly, there is no threshold where buffing is tedious, and if you think it sucks, why play a buffer?
P.S. I don't want the Mastermind upgrades. I think Sonic, Force Field, and Cold shields should renew themselves if someone you placed them on enters the radius of your bubble or fog. You would only have to recast the shield completely if they spent 4 minutes outside your aura. Thermal and Kinetics would receive the same treatment for Warmth and Transfusion. That way you can't just leave the buffer at the door. This bonus would only apply to always-up shield powers, and not "rolling buff" powers like Fortitude or Forge. Specifically:
- Force Field shields
- Cold shields
- Sonic shields
- Speed Boost
- Thermal shields
The Four-minute recast time jobbies I don't have a problem with.
Speed Boost and Inertial Reduction could really do with increased durations though. it DOES get very tedious to reapply buffs for Full Teams whenever they only last for two minutes or less (60 secs, in IR's case!) and similarly for Fortitude, Clear Mind, and Clarify.
Nerf the recharge time to double (or quadruple) it's current value, and double (or quadruple) the duration to bring it up to four minutes. Exactly the same recharge/duration ratio but alllowing you more time to use other powers between recasts. Job done.
Concerning longer 4-minute "bubble" buffs... I've a Cold/ and a Sonic/ Defender, a /Thermal Controller and a /FF Mastermind. The only time I have problems reapplying buffs is on my Mastermind. I don't mind bubbling all 7 allies on a full team, or bubbling all 6 of my pets, but doing BOTH every 4 minutes (And saving "Power Boost" for the teammates) makes it seem that it's practically all I'm ever doing...
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I like this idea, it sounds like a fair middle ground.|
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
I think Speed Boost should have its duration halved and when you cast it at someone, pop up a dialog box that asks "Are you sure you want to do this? They're going to go really fast!" Because clearly, there is no threshold where buffing is tedious, and if you think it sucks, why play a buffer?
P.S. I don't want the Mastermind upgrades. I think Sonic, Force Field, and Cold shields should renew themselves if someone you placed them on enters the radius of your bubble or fog. You would only have to recast the shield completely if they spent 4 minutes outside your aura. Thermal and Kinetics would receive the same treatment for Warmth and Transfusion. That way you can't just leave the buffer at the door. This bonus would only apply to always-up shield powers, and not "rolling buff" powers like Fortitude or Forge. Specifically: - Force Field shields - Cold shields - Sonic shields - Speed Boost - Thermal shields |
Now I do see people calling buffing tedious, that is not quite right. This is a MMO with many different players, and tedious for one will be fun for another. I myself do not find buffing tedious, now I wouldn't mind the quoted idea, but I would not like my shields to be changed like MM buffs were. There is no telling what else would be changed to balance them, and I do not like the idea of losing control on how and when I use the buff.
Dirges
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How about this;|
Originally Posted by Fleeting Whisper
Well, to be honest the trouble would generally be the other way around in such a situation. Games where a player can hand out very strong, very long buffs (on the order of an hour) often end up with buff players hanging out in a hub area, charging people for buffs.
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If the buff is cast on a team-mate, it auto-reapplies when the duration is up, taking the requisite amount of endurance from their team-mate. If the team-mate is dead or out of endurance or no longer a team-mate, the buff expires and has to be reapplied manually.
Boom, tedium gone but pretty much everything else stays the same.
Edit: To qualify, I don't think buffs are tedious to the point of not wanting to play them, but this would allow more support toons to focus on the other side of their AT, especially newer players.
Here's how to do it.
1) Drive-by shields cast on random people should last 4 minutes... maybe 6 or so, but not that long.
2) Shields for teammates should last a good 30 minutes to an hour.
3) SB should still not last that long, but should have an AE effect that does not affect the caster
4) Mez-breakers such as Clear Mind, if the player has no current target, should auto-target the nearest friendly who is slept/held/immobed/stunned.
There ya go! Buff sets are no longer so annoying to play.
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Not any more than "If you don't like micromanaging, don't play masterminds," or "if you don't like the fact you'll get mezzed and don't want to carry breakfrees, don't play a squishy." |
Originally Posted by Humility
The fact that people in the thread are flat out equating support with tedium speaks volumes. If has been outright said, if you don't like tedium, don't play X, Y and Z support selections.
No one sees anything wrong with that? |
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| How is tedium interesting gameplay? If the devs cannot come up with some sort of solution that doesn't involve mindlessly pressing the same 2 buttons every 4 minutes for 7+ targets, that is just flat out lazy and defending it seems like some pretty rabid fanboiism to me. |
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| Many of the other sets are considered to be extremely powerful (Rad, Dark, Kin anyone?) and they don't have the tedium of shields to get that performance (kin has SB, but this is specifically about shields in relation to performance). |
Oh my god! I hope you had sunglasses on. That was blindingly obvious.
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Telling someone who is trying to get a discussion to improve gameplay "if you don't like it, don't play" is pretty offensive to be honest. It's just closed minded pointless resistance to change in the name of tradition. |
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| I've seen a number of people shout down the idea, and I've seen a number of people who know the devs innermost thoughts on the matter. What I haven't seen is any information that indicates a change making shields function like mastermind upgrades would damage gameplay in any way shape or form. |
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Hell no. (1) Do it that way and I have to stop the team to apply them. (2) Do it that way and people who DON'T want a buff get them anyway. (3) Do it that way and people I *Do* want to buff, who may be out of range that moment, miss the buff and have to wait - yet I've still burned that end. Masterminds got that buff because they essentially *could not play* until they finished setting up. Pre-AOE-buff, it'd be like throwing a timer on a blaster so they'd have their first Tier1 blast right away, the next few powers opening up a minute into the mission, and the final (and their secondary) opening up two minutes in. It was a massive problem... for that AT, and for anyone teaming with them. |
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| So if it won't damage gameplay, |
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| and it will in fact improve gameplay for a number of people, |
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| the hostility and resistance to the idea is pretty baffling. |
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| Extra lulz in the thread have been provided by the gamer e-thugs "If you don't like tedium you're bad and shouldn't play!" /thuggin |
OH MY GOD, sorry, think I may have blinded you again. No "thugging" as you put it, and no comment one way or the other on your playing ability.
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Shield applied as teammate.|
Originally Posted by BugeyeJack
2) Shields for teammates should last a good 30 minutes to an hour.
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Sheidler then leaves the team, or just sits at the door.
No.
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| 3) SB should still not last that long, but should have an AE effect that does not affect the caster |
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1. What if I accidentally apply Speed Boost to someone who doesnt' want it? They now get re-SB'd every time unless they leave the team or die. |
Originally Posted by BlackBellatrix
How about this;
If the buff is cast on a team-mate, it auto-reapplies when the duration is up, taking the requisite amount of endurance from their team-mate. If the team-mate is dead or out of endurance or no longer a team-mate, the buff expires and has to be reapplied manually. Boom, tedium gone but pretty much everything else stays the same. |
2. Other buffs such as Fortitude, I *don't* want to apply to the same person. I'll reapply as needed. I wouldn't WANT those auto-renewed. Same with Clear Mind/Clarity. Those don't need constant reapplication.
3. What about "buff/heals," such as O2 boost? I don't want that getting reapplied continually, and they likely don't need to be healed that often.
You've just introduced a whole new set of problems.
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Well it took 3 pages, but eventually the "every button click is the same" argument had to come up. So why not just make every power take 2 button clicks? Or 3? Or 4 and a confirmation screen? And make Tankers click their armor toggles every time they start a fight? It's all just pressing the same few buttons. Scrappers and Blasters even push 5 or 6 every 15 seconds. | As opposed to pressing the same few buttons to fire attacks off? |
Now, I'm not going to put this in falsely objective terms. In my opinion, the buff GUI sucks. I have nothing to back this up except that it is my opinion. It annoys me. I like buffing in other games. I like the effects of buffing in this game. But I do not like the mechanics. This is not a contradiction in terms.
Specifically, the design principals I feel clash are the "always up" buffs of the "bubble" and Speed Boost type with relatively short durations. I have dealt, in this game and others, with powers with much shorter durations than these. But those powers did not reward you for keeping the power up all of the time. It's nursing these buffs of unchanging duration and a locked-in strategy where the only satisfactory tactic is keeping them perma that causes the frustration. As I have said of Speed Boost specifically in the past, it is a power balanced by frustration. And IMO, balancing a power by frustration just means people will be frustrated.
Pointless clicking is pointless clicking whether its in City of Heroes or the Papa John's website. And Opinions about what is useful are opinions.
Although most of us probably agree that 30 point text in Sunrise Yellow detracts from the our experience.
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Seems an excellent idea to me. |
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
I think Speed Boost should have its duration halved and when you cast it at someone, pop up a dialog box that asks "Are you sure you want to do this? They're going to go really fast!" Because clearly, there is no threshold where buffing is tedious, and if you think it sucks, why play a buffer?
P.S. I don't want the Mastermind upgrades. I think Sonic, Force Field, and Cold shields should renew themselves if someone you placed them on enters the radius of your bubble or fog. You would only have to recast the shield completely if they spent 4 minutes outside your aura. Thermal and Kinetics would receive the same treatment for Warmth and Transfusion. That way you can't just leave the buffer at the door. This bonus would only apply to always-up shield powers, and not "rolling buff" powers like Fortitude or Forge. Specifically: - Force Field shields - Cold shields - Sonic shields - Speed Boost - Thermal shields |
I have to stop the team to apply the PBAoE buff!
- No, the team just has to orbit near you every four minutes or so.
People who don't want a buff get them anyway!
- No, the shields are still single target, they just get renewed as a PBAoE. If they don't want it, they don't get it. If they get it by accident they just stay out of the radius and let it wear off. In fact this would actually make it easier to handle the "I don't want that buff" characters since you'd probably only have to remember NOT to buff them once.
I might burn extra END because I missed someone with my PBAoE buff!
- It's not PBAoE, it's single target. If they forget to come near you within the four minutes just bubble them manually.
The only drawback I see is END cost. The auto renew could be going off an awful lot on full teams, and that's a lot of shields. END cost for renewal would have to be made minimal to offset the possibility of a team of 8 MM's running around with no END, and no choice to turn auto renewing off. I think there would have to be an END cost, but it would have to be figured as small. Most of the shields have pretty small END costs as it is, so I don't think that would be a huge problem.
Pretty cool idea Oedipus Tex!
I agree, the aura renew sounds like a good idea but it also seems like a very difficult to code idea.
(quoted the original post to remove obnoxious formatting of the followup)
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If we're going to use large font and act like the other guy is a moron... (scratch that, I'm just not enough of a tool to use that kind of obnoxious formatting to try and make a simple point)|
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
Hell no.
(1) Do it that way and I have to stop the team to apply them. (2) Do it that way and people who DON'T want a buff get them anyway. (3) Do it that way and people I *Do* want to buff, who may be out of range that moment, miss the buff and have to wait - yet I've still burned that end. |
(1)Give it a generous area, enough to cover a good sized room [and see point 3]
(2)I was speaking in reference ONLY TO DEFENSE/RESIST SHIELDS. No one has reason to not want these, even if you don't need them there is nothing detrimental about having them. Please note that OTHER PEOPLE are suggesting other powers. If you want to respond specifically to my posts, then kindly READ MY POSTS and do not lump in other peoples statements when refuting the point that I am making. Me. Not them. Complicated, I know.
(3)Recreate the power with the following functionality: When you cast the shield buff it creates an invisible pet entity at your location (which then follows you) which exists for 20 seconds. Every 2 seconds it sends out an aoe which will cast the shield on anyone within range.
There ya go, no need to call for a team gather and since you can move closer to anyone out of range, you won't miss anyone unless they are a very hefty distance away from you. Problem solved.
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| Many of the other sets are considered to be extremely powerful (Rad, Dark, Kin anyone?) and they don't have the tedium of shields to get that performance (kin has SB, but this is specifically about shields in relation to performance). |
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Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
So... as I said before, if you want to play support without the "tedium" as you put it of shielding sets, play one of the *other* sets.
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Applying heals at the right times and right places instead of kicking warmth to auto and going afk.
Reactive/proactive application of Thaw and similar powers to the correct targets.
Appropriate timing and targeting of debuffs like melt armor.
These are the things that should define a good player. Not mindlessly recasting the same 2 buffs every 4 minutes for hours on end.
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Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
Oh my god! I hope you had sunglasses on. That was blindingly obvious.
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| So if it won't damage gameplay, |
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Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
... which it will,
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| and it will in fact improve gameplay for a number of people, |
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Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
which it won't...
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Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
Hmm. DOn't like control, don't play a controller. Don't like the shield setup, don't play one.
OH MY GOD, sorry, think I may have blinded you again. |
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| telling anyone that they shouldn't play a full robust interesting powerset simply because the shield buffing is badly done is a terrible approach. It is blindingly obvious. |
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Originally Posted by Dromio
The only drawback I see is END cost. The auto renew could be going off an awful lot on full teams, and that's a lot of shields. END cost for renewal would have to be made minimal to offset the possibility of a team of 8 MM's running around with no END, and no choice to turn auto renewing off. I think there would have to be an END cost, but it would have to be figured as small. Most of the shields have pretty small END costs as it is, so I don't think that would be a huge problem.
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I personally don't see any reason that it should cost extra endurance. Endurance is only a minor factor in the strategy of these powers currently. The exception is Sonic, and that set needs a buff to endurance friendliness specifically.
I've liked the idea of changing single target shields to work like the newer Mastermind upgrades since the Mastermind change went it. It isn't like the change would screw up balance by making anything stronger, you can already bubble everyone on the team; it's just extremely irritating to do so. And if that is meant for balance, "balance by tedium" is poor game design.
Arc #40529 : The Furies of the Earth