Most Overhyped Power Set Combos?
By
Aaron Islander,
Posted on: 2010-12-12 07:06 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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In reality a build that is good for soloing AVs is also good at killing/tanking/debuffing single hard targets whether solo or in a group. A good farming character is going to be good at handling groups in 0/X8 and +1/X8 (or more) when in a group as they are when solo. |
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
I think what's hyped in general is performance versus AVs and on farms. Almost as if the rise from lvls 1-50 isn't a significant part of the game. Or THE game, until very recently.
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This isn't a game where good builds are entirely situational. A good AV/GM killer or farmer will still be plenty useful on a team.
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This. A thousand times this. Add in all the crappy players who gravitate toward the combo because it's teh uberz for farming, and I cringe every time one joins the team.|
Originally Posted by Talen Lee
Fire/kin controllers are very, very good at knocking down tuned groups of a specific type without interference and provided nothing odd gets thrown at them.
They do not bring anything to a variable situation that other control/support combos don't seem to bring as well, if not better. Great farmers, but if you're rolling one for non-farm purposes, the combo is quite ho-hum. |
Elec/Shields. Yeah, sure, you get two awesome mini-nukes, but they're on long timers, and your single-target damage sucks. Making one awesome isn't cheap, so you might as well take the inf you were going to spend to make "teh awesome farmer" and go spend it on the characters you're farming for. And if you're not spending the inf to make it awesome, you're not killing anything when you're faceplanted.
Stone Armor. Get a Willpower or an Invul, invite a bubbler or a Cold or an Empath who knows what Fortitude is and you'll have a tank that's just as survivable, and without the drawbacks. Plus the bubbler or Cold or Empath will be keeping everybody else alive.
Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World
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Agree with you everywhere else, but I think this is a little unfair. I enjoy my fire/kin on a team because it has the ability to fill a great deal of roles very effectively. Some skill is required, yes, but it allows me to play a wide variety playstyles with great effectiveness.|
Originally Posted by Eva Destruction
This. A thousand times this. Add in all the crappy players who gravitate toward the combo because it's teh uberz for farming, and I cringe every time one joins the team.
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You'd like playing with mine.
Open the pod bay doors, Hal.
Hyper in-game and hyped on the forums are often different. In-game, at least by my perception, Dark Miasma seems underrated. Almost never see one. In-forum, Dark Miasma gets a lot of "This set is awesome!"
My own list, including several frequently mentioned. Note that this doesn't necessarily mean I dislike these sets. Some I play.
Fire/Kin Controller
Kin/Fire Corr
Elec/SD Scrapper
Super Strength anything
Willpower anything
Bad Empaths (I'd argue good Empaths are under-hyped)
Sonic Resonance (Let's be clear here: any amount of hype for this set is overhype. Compared to all the other options, it's, in my opinion, that bad. I like the set, but it really, really needs a look)
Rad/Sonic Defender
Power Mastery on Defenders
Body Mastery (and equivalents) on Scrappers/Brutes/Tanks
Illusion/Rad Controller
Psy/EM Blasters (In PvP only. Yeah, well built they kick serious butt, but there's plenty of other viable alternatives (and ATs). Maybe or maybe not in the top-end competitive scene, but I've never played or seen that level).
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On the other hand, most of those sets do deserve the hype they get
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Originally Posted by TwilightPhoenix
Hyper in-game and hyped on the forums are often different. In-game, at least by my perception, Dark Miasma seems underrated. Almost never see one. In-forum, Dark Miasma gets a lot of "This set is awesome!"
My own list, including several frequently mentioned. Note that this doesn't necessarily mean I dislike these sets. Some I play. Fire/Kin Controller Kin/Fire Corr Elec/SD Scrapper Super Strength anything Willpower anything Bad Empaths (I'd argue good Empaths are under-hyped) Sonic Resonance (Let's be clear here: any amount of hype for this set is overhype. Compared to all the other options, it's, in my opinion, that bad. I like the set, but it really, really needs a look) Rad/Sonic Defender Power Mastery on Defenders Body Mastery (and equivalents) on Scrappers/Brutes/Tanks Illusion/Rad Controller Psy/EM Blasters (In PvP only. Yeah, well built they kick serious butt, but there's plenty of other viable alternatives (and ATs). Maybe or maybe not in the top-end competitive scene, but I've never played or seen that level). |
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I don't deny that there are some Fire/Kins that are very useful to a team. It is a support AT after all. That requires the player to actually play it as a support AT though, and to keep in mind that they're NOT farming solo. And as you said, some skill is required.
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Originally Posted by The_Ringer
Agree with you everywhere else, but I think this is a little unfair. I enjoy my fire/kin on a team because it has the ability to fill a great deal of roles very effectively. Some skill is required, yes, but it allows me to play a wide variety playstyles with great effectiveness.
You'd like playing with mine. |
Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World
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You NEVER see a DM in game? I have numerous ones.. Thugs/DM MM.. 50 level Rogue, Bots/DM MM .. 45 level Vigilante (started her career in Praetoria, DS/DM MM .. 50 leve Rogue. I think what some people don't realize or understand is that every single one of the powers in DM has some form of Debuff, Slow, Disorient.. whatever. YES I heal a lot.. NO it's not because I am working on heal badges or just like to see green numbers flying over people's heads.. My heals also have 2 slots of To Hit Debuff and I am making life tougher for the villains in front of you to do any damage. Yeah I have a Rez but it also has the ability to disorient a Boss or even an EB so I strongly suggest you carry some awake because I am NOT promising it will be available if you face plant! My MMs are very popular on ITFs since they tend to leave Romulus swatting at thin air while the team pounds him senseless. Don't get me wrong I also have RAD defenders I love and several versions of Controllers that provide great buffs but I have seen some listing DM as over hyped. I've seen quite a few players on Virtue using it and using it very well.
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Originally Posted by TwilightPhoenix
Hyper in-game and hyped on the forums are often different. In-game, at least by my perception, Dark Miasma seems underrated. Almost never see one. In-forum, Dark Miasma gets a lot of "This set is awesome!"
My own list, including several frequently mentioned. Note that this doesn't necessarily mean I dislike these sets. Some I play. Fire/Kin Controller Kin/Fire Corr Elec/SD Scrapper Super Strength anything Willpower anything Bad Empaths (I'd argue good Empaths are under-hyped) Sonic Resonance (Let's be clear here: any amount of hype for this set is overhype. Compared to all the other options, it's, in my opinion, that bad. I like the set, but it really, really needs a look) Rad/Sonic Defender Power Mastery on Defenders Body Mastery (and equivalents) on Scrappers/Brutes/Tanks Illusion/Rad Controller Psy/EM Blasters (In PvP only. Yeah, well built they kick serious butt, but there's plenty of other viable alternatives (and ATs). Maybe or maybe not in the top-end competitive scene, but I've never played or seen that level). |
�We�re always the good guys. In D&D, we�re lawful good. In City of Heroes we�re the heroes. In Grand Theft Auto we pay the prostitutes promptly and never hit them with a bat.� � Leonard
�Those women are prostitutes? You said they were raising money for stem cell research!� � Sheldon
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If they're thinking DM is overhyped, it may just be because they've run into a lot people not playing the set optimally.|
Originally Posted by Wicked_Wendy
You NEVER see a DM in game? I have numerous ones.. Thugs/DM MM.. 50 level Rogue, Bots/DM MM .. 45 level Vigilante (started her career in Praetoria, DS/DM MM .. 50 leve Rogue. I think what some people don't realize or understand is that every single one of the powers in DM has some form of Debuff, Slow, Disorient.. whatever. YES I heal a lot.. NO it's not because I am working on heal badges or just like to see green numbers flying over people's heads.. My heals also have 2 slots of To Hit Debuff and I am making life tougher for the villains in front of you to do any damage. Yeah I have a Rez but it also has the ability to disorient a Boss or even an EB so I strongly suggest you carry some awake because I am NOT promising it will be available if you face plant! My MMs are very popular on ITFs since they tend to leave Romulus swatting at thin air while the team pounds him senseless. Don't get me wrong I also have RAD defenders I love and several versions of Controllers that provide great buffs but I have seen some listing DM as over hyped. I've seen quite a few players on Virtue using it and using it very well.
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AV fights for instance, I've run into lots of DM users who just aren't using HT to apply the -Regen. And during normal missions, they're saving HT as a rez, not using it as an AOE stun.
I've seen people skip HT, since they didn't want a rez. Nevermind everything else is does.
I've seen one DM user skip Tar Patch :/ I figure there has to be others out doing that as well :/
When not using it to it's fullest, it can seem very overhyped.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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Originally Posted by BrandX
If they're thinking DM is overhyped, it may just be because they've run into a lot people not playing the set optimally.
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The thing is that I, at least, view "hype" as a measure of distance in performance between the set and other sets. I think few people question whether some of the sets they've mentioned are good. What they (or at least I) question is whether they are so clearly superior to other alternatives that we should see 10 of them to every 1 of another.
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Well, on the grounds that people want to solo and team, I'd say Dark Miasma would be popular for that reason alone.|
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
The thing is that I, at least, view "hype" as a measure of distance in performance between the set and other sets. I think few people question whether some of the sets they've mentioned are good. What they (or at least I) question is whether they are so clearly superior to other alternatives that we should see 10 of them to every 1 of another.
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I found my Dark Miasma users to solo a lot better than my Rads.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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Same here. My DM is probably the first character I ever felt confident taking on hazard zone spawns with at high levels.
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Originally Posted by BrandX
Well, on the grounds that people want to solo and team, I'd say Dark Miasma would be popular for that reason alone.
I found my Dark Miasma users to solo a lot better than my Rads. |
Having Vengeance and Fallout slotted for recharge means never having to say you're sorry.
Shield Defense. The way some people go on about it you'd think all the other armor sets ceased to exist the day Shields got added to the game.
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I like Kinetics because it plays like Brutes used to before the Fury changes... you have a perpetual damage buff that you have to keep moving to maintain, and the faster you play, the better it performs. Other people hated the old way Fury worked for the exact same reasons, though, so I can see it.|
Originally Posted by Carnifax_NA
Kinetics is one which suffers from this most IMO. Yes, eventually it does indeed have the best damage buff in the game, but it takes 32/38 (and those 6 levels difference are for me usually a killer) to get there. It's also fragile and one of the sets worst affected by lag or a slow PC. I ended up loathing my Dark/Kin Corruptor because the 20s was so damn boring for him (he's both deleted and on an inactive account now).
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Originally Posted by Carnifax_NA
Fire/Dark corruptors, to my mind, are overhyped for the opposite reason to Kinetics, their ridiculous amounts of AOE firepower before level 20. You can have a lethal cocktail of debuffs and AOE attacks by level 10. On a Steamrolling team in the 30s upwards they actually aren't that far ahead of other combos.
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As for overhyped: pre-nerf Energy Melee. It was overhyped enough that the devs actually listed "people on the forums going lol for taking non-EM" as one of the reasons that it was nerfed, and never did anything well except single-target damage and single-target stuns... and it was only great at single-target once you got ET cycling every 6-7 seconds (230% recharge and up). At mid-levels of recharge, SM outperformed it with the old mallet animations while providing far better crowd control if/when needed, and SS can provide high-end single-target damage along with top-tier AoE.
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
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How are all these sets over hyped when a lot of them just work extremely well ?
The hard things I can do--- The impossible just take a little bit longer.
If numbers are so much more important than a teammate who is fun to play with, forget about the game altogether and go play with a calculator instead. -Claws and Effect-
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it's not that they work well (which as said...when used right can be VERY good) as it's more of the fact that many practically claim them as the end-all, be-all of powersets/combos. |
Originally Posted by Airhammer
How are all these sets over hyped when a lot of them just work extremely well ?
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"i wanna make a troller...suggestions?" "MUST BE FIRE/KIN! THEY R THE BEST!"
"I'm looking to make a new melee toon." "ELEC/SHIELD OR SS/SHIELD! UBER!"
...so on and so forth. Some people will take these suggestions (and others as i only used a few) and make said toons and find them to be much more lackluster than advertised unless they're built to certain specs. Hence...overhyped.
RaikenX is currently seeking new quotes to add to his signature.
Someone say something funny.
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Originally Posted by Smiling_Joe
::looks at RaikenX's signature::
Something funny. |
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Because the level of hysteria and reverence about them is out of proportion to how well they actually do work (see also Harry Potter for details).|
Originally Posted by Airhammer
How are all these sets over hyped when a lot of them just work extremely well ?
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They do work well, but they also get more adolation than they really deserve
Shields would be another i'd throw in there. In fact Shields is a more cut-and-dry example because without IOs it's actually a bit squishy.
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Pretty much, it's really rare for me to run across any but my own DM/Rad Defender. And I frequently find myself wondering why I don't see more while I'm able to make teams take on massive spawns with no issues (or take them on myself).
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Originally Posted by Wicked_Wendy
You NEVER see a DM in game?
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You know, as someone with a Shield character as one of his favorite characters, the amount of hype Shield gets still blows me away. I remember once I was on my Spines/SR shortly after making him (I think I was on a sewer run) and I got a tell saying something like, "Hey man you should reroll to Shield Defense, it's way better." I don't think he realized my primary was Spines, but you get the idea.|
Originally Posted by Steel_Shaman
Shield Defense. The way some people go on about it you'd think all the other armor sets ceased to exist the day Shields got added to the game.
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So I add Shield Defense to my (short) list, most definitely. It's the only time I've ever had anyone tell me that I should reroll into a "better" powerset.
Wild Streak - Lv. 50(+3) Beast Mastery/Sonic Resonance Mastermind, Amnesty - Lv. 50 Staff Fighting/Dark Armor Stalker
H34lorz in game - overhyped
H34lorz in forums - underhyped
I've never started a TF or mission team on the condition of an Emp/ or Pain/ being present. They're nice to have along, but frequently not played as effectively as they could/should (in all fairness, playing an emp/ or pain/ effectively is tedious, exhausting, and kinda boring.)
That said, when my HP are crashing into the red and a Warwolf is about to food up on me, I want a H34lor. Throwing an ice shield or force bubble around my soon-to-be corpse is cold comfort. No pun intended.
Some more:
/Traps in game = underhyped
/Traps in forums = overhyped
/Trick Arrow in game = underhyped
/Trick Arrow in forums = overhyped
Mind/ in game = underhyped
Mind/ in forums = overhyped
Shield in game = overhyped
Shield in forums = overhyped
I don't mind elec/shield brutes or scrappers, but I HATE it when the lead tank is a SD/ELEC. They have too much control over the pace of the team, and will sit on their hands until Shield Charge and/or Lightning Rod are recharged. Never mind that they have 7 fully capable damage dealing and support teams ready to charge on. It's all about them. >:-|
Stay Gold, Paragon. Stay Gold.
Nolite te bastardes carborundorum.
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Ignore the crash haters.|
Originally Posted by BigFish
Taunt, Footstomp, and Knockout Blow will still keep you useful during the crash
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Some people just aren't willing to pay a 10 second tax for 110s of awesome.
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Originally Posted by Carnifax_NA
Rad is indeed pretty good but (like Fire/Dark corruptors) it does suffer from the "snowball effect" where it's popularity is still way out of proportion to how much better it is than other sets (also known as the Harry Potter effect).
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To use a bit more technical terminology, it allows you to pew pew pew.
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Originally Posted by Eva Destruction
Elec/Shields. Yeah, sure, you get two awesome mini-nukes, but they're on long timers, and your single-target damage sucks. Making one awesome isn't cheap, so you might as well take the inf you were going to spend to make "teh awesome farmer" and go spend it on the characters you're farming for. And if you're not spending the inf to make it awesome, you're not killing anything when you're faceplanted.
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Those "long recharge" nukes are on 28s timers, i.e. one is up every 14s.
Both are supplemented by Thunder Strike (which doesn't get enough credit for the DPA that it has), Ball Lightning & Chain Induction.
Softcapped, no purples, no PvP IOs and post AMs the entire build was put together for about 500 mill and 10-12 Alignment Merits.
It is a specialized Softcapped & highly survivable, high burst AoE damage dealer and is in fact as good as a lot of it's hype.
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Originally Posted by BrandX
Well, on the grounds that people want to solo and team, I'd say Dark Miasma would be popular for that reason alone.
I found my Dark Miasma users to solo a lot better than my Rads. |
This build, with inherent fitness, can have 3 AoEs, 3 ST Attacks, and all of it's primary debuffs & controls by L20.
I think Fire/Rad is a stronger end game build, but my experience matches yours and for leveling I found Fire/Dark Corr the much better solo build.
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That's very true I love teaming but my DMs have no trouble at all Soloing and your right BrandX like most other sets mentioned here, or not, its not the set that is the problem its the person at the keyboard knowing how to use it. I take and use everything in that set and especially when teaming spend more time debuffing than attacking with anything BUT my minions. If everything else is recharging or already cast I will start blasting but I figure its a lot easier to defeat anything onces it has two or three -to hits, a slow, a disorient and a fear cast on it :-D Since my Thugs MM has just finished up getting her uncommon incarnate slotted please speak to Romulus in Cimerora, The Honoree in the RWZ and Reichmann in.... wherever that secret base of his is located.. for references! LOL
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Originally Posted by BrandX
Well, on the grounds that people want to solo and team, I'd say Dark Miasma would be popular for that reason alone.
I found my Dark Miasma users to solo a lot better than my Rads. |
�We�re always the good guys. In D&D, we�re lawful good. In City of Heroes we�re the heroes. In Grand Theft Auto we pay the prostitutes promptly and never hit them with a bat.� � Leonard
�Those women are prostitutes? You said they were raising money for stem cell research!� � Sheldon
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This I don't get. I mean, yeah, Shields is awesome, I have one and love it, but it would be so BORING to play the same thing over and over again.|
Originally Posted by Crashed
You know, as someone with a Shield character as one of his favorite characters, the amount of hype Shield gets still blows me away. I remember once I was on my Spines/SR shortly after making him (I think I was on a sewer run) and I got a tell saying something like, "Hey man you should reroll to Shield Defense, it's way better." I don't think he realized my primary was Spines, but you get the idea.
So I add Shield Defense to my (short) list, most definitely. It's the only time I've ever had anyone tell me that I should reroll into a "better" powerset. |
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Originally Posted by MaHaBone23
I don't mind elec/shield brutes or scrappers, but I HATE it when the lead tank is a SD/ELEC. They have too much control over the pace of the team, and will sit on their hands until Shield Charge and/or Lightning Rod are recharged. Never mind that they have 7 fully capable damage dealing and support teams ready to charge on. It's all about them. >:-|
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Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
I don't use mine for farming, I use mine for wiping out entire spawns on TFs unsupported.
Those "long recharge" nukes are on 28s timers, i.e. one is up every 14s. Both are supplemented by Thunder Strike (which doesn't get enough credit for the DPA that it has), Ball Lightning & Chain Induction. Softcapped, no purples, no PvP IOs and post AMs the entire build was put together for about 500 mill and 10-12 Alignment Merits. It is a specialized Softcapped & highly survivable, high burst AoE damage dealer and is in fact as good as a lot of it's hype. |
The lackluster single-target damage is the biggest drawback of Electric melee for me. The Elec/Shield hype tends to conveniently ignore that aspect. Not that other powerset combos don't have their drawbacks, they all do. It's just that part of the problem with overhyping a set is that the downsides aren't mentioned, and people gravitate toward the set thinking it's awesome at everything and end up horribly disappointed when it doesn't do what they wanted it to.
Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World
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I have no illusions about the ST damage, it is very poor (I should do a pylon test one of these days just to see how bad it really is).|
Originally Posted by Eva Destruction
Yeah well....it doesn't take me forever to kill bosses, so there.
The lackluster single-target damage is the biggest drawback of Electric melee for me. The Elec/Shield hype tends to conveniently ignore that aspect. Not that other powerset combos don't have their drawbacks, they all do. It's just that part of the problem with overhyping a set is that the downsides aren't mentioned, and people gravitate toward the set thinking it's awesome at everything and end up horribly disappointed when it doesn't do what they wanted it to. |
Generally I'm running through tips at 0x8 with bosses off, or I have 7 other friends to take care of the bosses - because I took care of nearly everything else.
I like when people are horribly disappointed, because it means they didn't actually bother to read up on a set before they used it.
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That's what I try to remind people in my SG, friends in game, when asked for help.|
Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
I have no illusions about the ST damage, it is very poor (I should do a pylon test one of these days just to see how bad it really is).
Generally I'm running through tips at 0x8 with bosses off, or I have 7 other friends to take care of the bosses - because I took care of nearly everything else. I like when people are horribly disappointed, because it means they didn't actually bother to read up on a set before they used it. |
A lot of theUBER builds you see, are UBEr because they took the right powers, and they slotted the right IOs.
Shields is a case for this.
"OMG! I thought Shields was suppossed to be all that! I die so easily! It sucks!"
*check their build* "You lack Tough and Weave, and have no set bonuses for added defense."
or
"I have the uber combo, but I suck"
*check build* "Well, you're lacking this and this power"
"It doesn't work with my concept."
"Then you're missing part of the combo.
"And the worst ever...
"I'm the uber healer! I took just my first attack!"
"You're archery, at least take RoA!"
"But then I wouldn't be focusing on being uber healer!"
"
"
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
[EDIT: Removed accidental quote]
Kinetics is one which suffers from this most IMO. Yes, eventually it does indeed have the best damage buff in the game, but it takes 32/38 (and those 6 levels difference are for me usually a killer) to get there. It's also fragile and one of the sets worst affected by lag or a slow PC. I ended up loathing my Dark/Kin Corruptor because the 20s was so damn boring for him (he's both deleted and on an inactive account now).
Rad is indeed pretty good but (like Fire/Dark corruptors) it does suffer from the "snowball effect" where it's popularity is still way out of proportion to how much better it is than other sets (also known as the Harry Potter effect).
Fire/Dark corruptors, to my mind, are overhyped for the opposite reason to Kinetics, their ridiculous amounts of AOE firepower before level 20. You can have a lethal cocktail of debuffs and AOE attacks by level 10. On a Steamrolling team in the 30s upwards they actually aren't that far ahead of other combos.