How long will the exploits go on?
By
Acemace,
Posted on: 2010-11-24 20:30 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
If this were a musical, this is the song the devs would be singing right now about us:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ScD5Z_Yxi0
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Originally Posted by MunkiLord
mass banning everybody that took part in this exploit will just serve to piss off a lot of people. That is not a good thing for CoH. A small to medium sized MMO like this isn't in a position to piss off potentially thousands of people to teach them a lesson about power leveling.
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Perhaps they could hold off on the mass bannings until, say, March 31 2011, and they could give it an event name like, the exodus.
Just saying, I'm currently a lvl9 something, over in another something that's shiny and going to be something on March 31.
Maybe the purity police can get rid of all their undesirable fellow gamers in one shot.
A girl can dream.
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Even knocking them down to 1, erasing all enhancements, tickets, and inf would be suitable.
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
I think locking the PL'ed avatars for the average time it takes to get to 50 would be a suitable reward - no one loses anything, but they don't profit from it either
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lvl9? I got bored with the something before I got there.
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Originally Posted by Tank_Washington
Perhaps they could hold off on the mass bannings until, say, March 31 2011, and they could give it an event name like, the exodus.
Just saying, I'm currently a lvl9 something, over in another something that's shiny and going to be something on March 31. Maybe the purity police can get rid of all their undesirable fellow gamers in one shot. A girl can dream. |
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I understand your point, but do you really think that how to deal with exploits should be defined and calibrated by those three or four players who just joined in the last day?|
Originally Posted by Antigonus
Here's part of the problem when discussing exploits and banning the users of said exploits. Players new to the game don't know whan the "normal" XP rates are. A player that just bought the game isn't going to have any idea of how fast the game is going to allow them to level. All they know is that they got through the tutorial (which is also not an accurate indicator of level advancement), entered Atlas and responded to a broadcast for an AE team. This is especially true of a player that is picking up CoX as their first MMO. They did what they would have been expected to do as a new player and nothing else. Deleting that players characters or banning the player is a sure fire way to lose that account, so why would the Devs do such a thing? It's one thing to do that to a player that should know better, but something else entirely to do it to a new player that is far more likely to just uninstall because of it.
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Personally, I'm an old-school hard-liner. If they decide *activity* is wrong, then I'm all for deleting all characters that provably engaged in *activity*.
The crux here is that what I feel is irrelevant.
I ha
Ooh, a sarcasm detector. Oh, that's a *real* useful invention. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technolog...t-sarcasm.html
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And let us recall his 'intent' for MA was that it not be a farmer's paradise....so, yeah.
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Originally Posted by MunkiLord
No, writing a rant to your customers is never a good idea. Again, his intent is irrelevant.
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The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
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I'm making a note here so I can ask you why you are hanging around mid April.
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Originally Posted by Tank_Washington
Perhaps they could hold off on the mass bannings until, say, March 31 2011, and they could give it an event name like, the exodus.
Just saying, I'm currently a lvl9 something, over in another something that's shiny and going to be something on March 31. Maybe the purity police can get rid of all their undesirable fellow gamers in one shot. A girl can dream. |
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Yes, it should. Unless they are willing to commit the time and energy to examine each case on an individual basis to determine intent, it should be assumed that each case is a mistake and that no action should be taken. The only players that they can say absolutely did knowingly break the rules are the ones that actually made the exploitable arcs, in some cases even after those arcs were deleted previously. Those people have no excuse and action should be taken. All other cases should be treated as misunderstandings for the sole purpose of good customer relations on the off chance that even one of those people was a new player who didn't know better. That's just good business. In the long run they lose nothing by letting it slide. Taking a hardline approach could cost them a great deal.
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Originally Posted by Yomo_Kimyata
I understand your point, but do you really think that how to deal with exploits should be defined and calibrated by those three or four players who just joined in the last day?
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Yes. The Server is. If you don't want spam avoid Freedom. That is all |
Originally Posted by Legend_Light
This.
That place is insane. |
10 50's To Date! Check out Titan Sentinel; it got my CoH presence synced online
And to answer the title question; as long as the AE exists.
It doesn't matter if it's new specific enemy "errors" giving boss xp, or just a WAI weak enemygroup, people will continue making missions lowrisk/high reward. There are hundreds of people (the people who create and "abuse" these "exploits", since my numbers are about to be drawn into question. by these same forum people. again.) who are unhappy with the levelprogression of CoH. The idea of the game is pleasing, but there are people who only like the challenge of slotting a lv50, or only like Fullyslotted lv50 PvP, or would just like to play the game above lv30 so they have more/cooler powers etc.
The AE gives us "the keys to [the] kingdom" as massively.com said in their official Doom article with i14s release/followup; if the devs don't want to change the devcreated content for faster leveling options the players will use the keys to do it for themselves.
10 50's To Date! Check out Titan Sentinel; it got my CoH presence synced online
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Wow! I thought I was asking a rhetorical question!
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Originally Posted by Antigonus
Yes, it should. Unless they are willing to commit the time and energy to examine each case on an individual basis to determine intent, it should be assumed that each case is a mistake and that no action should be taken. The only players that they can say absolutely did knowingly break the rules are the ones that actually made the exploitable arcs, in some cases even after those arcs were deleted previously. Those people have no excuse and action should be taken. All other cases should be treated as misunderstandings for the sole purpose of good customer relations on the off chance that even one of those people was a new player who didn't know better. That's just good business. In the long run they lose nothing by letting it slide. Taking a hardline approach could cost them a great deal.
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Ooh, a sarcasm detector. Oh, that's a *real* useful invention. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technolog...t-sarcasm.html
Seriously, get over it.
The Spam can't be that bad. I play on Virtue, and except in Cap and AP, I see absolutely no spam for AE. Even in Cap and AP, I see some spam but never enough that it even registers to me anymore.
If I do notice it I'm usually like , "Huh? People still broadcast for AE farms? I thought that was over Like I15".
Exploits will continue until the game goes offline. Even if the developers plug every hole in AE, people will find that one magical little thing that yields them an extra 2% XP per kill and they will farm it to get to level 50 2% faster than before.
It's part of this game, it's part of ANY game, online or not, so seriously, get over it.
"Where does he get those wonderful toys?" - The Joker
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You made some good points, but let's not forget that the whole impetus behind AE was the reality television driver. "Wait, our clients want more content? Let's charge them AND make them develop new content for us. Brilliant! No, you are brilliant!"|
Originally Posted by Psychic Guardian
The AE gives us "the keys to [the] kingdom" as massively.com said in their official Doom article with i14s release/followup; if the devs don't want to change the devcreated content for faster leveling options the players will use the keys to do it for themselves. |
The way I look at it, the developers are just lazy and sloppy for asking their subscribers to create content AND for not fixing exploits related to that content creation. Hey, we are all lazy and sloppy to some extent. But I wouldn't hire any of these people if I had a serious job I needed done.
Ooh, a sarcasm detector. Oh, that's a *real* useful invention. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technolog...t-sarcasm.html
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Developing a system that was specifically asked for by a subsection of customers makes you lazy?
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Originally Posted by Yomo_Kimyata
You made some good points, but let's not forget that the whole impetus behind AE was the reality television driver. "Wait, our clients want more content? Let's charge them AND make them develop new content for us. Brilliant! No, you are brilliant!"
The way I look at it, the developers are just lazy and sloppy for asking their subscribers to create content AND for not fixing exploits related to that content creation. Hey, we are all lazy and sloppy to some extent. But I wouldn't hire any of these people if I had a serious job I needed done. |
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That's a really cynical\mean way to look at it.|
Originally Posted by Yomo_Kimyata
The way I look at it, the developers are just lazy and sloppy for asking their subscribers to create content AND for not fixing exploits related to that content creation. Hey, we are all lazy and sloppy to some extent. But I wouldn't hire any of these people if I had a serious job I needed done.
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AE isn't just about making it so we make content and they don't have to. Since I14 when AE was launched they've released 4 more free issue updates with plenty of Content, and each one has given us new types of content, new types of missions and new tech in the missions. It's not like they released AE and said, okay now we just pop out a couple more Defeat alls in each Issue and the rest of the content is done for us.
AE is a really cool little tool. It allows us, the player base, to make new challenges for ourselves and our friends and write our own stories. CoH is the first MMO to not only encourage you to make your fan fiction, but to put in their game. That's pretty freaking sweet and I think it's remarkably cynical to say it's just lazyness on their part that made them want to do it.
As for the exploits. Everyone complains about the AE exploits, but no one bothers to mention that before AE there were plenty of other exploits people complaining about. Honestly if AE was pulled from the game now, in a week people would be farming something else and other people would be whining about it. Exploits are not the fault of the Devs, Exploits are the fault of greedy\lazy\whatever players that will always look for a way to cheat\game the system and get the most rewards per hour even if it's an abuse to the game system. The Devs are human beings, these exploits don't exist on account of them being Lazy or dumb or not caring, they exist because as human beings they have only so many hours in the day that they can devote to fixing the exploits that crop up, and they are outnumbered. They have tens of people in an office who are trying to fix exploits that are being hunted by hundreds or thousands of players.
AE is a great tool, it wasn't designed so the Devs could stop making content and the Devs aren't responsible for people abusing it. People should stop being pissed at the Devs for the fact that other people abuse the system, start getting pissed at the people who exploit the system, they are the problem.
"Where does he get those wonderful toys?" - The Joker
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Not just that, but developing a better way to *create and release the devs own content* and releasing a (somewhat less powerful) way of doing so, with the supporting systems, to the community in response to their (our) own requests.|
Originally Posted by LISAR
Developing a system that was specifically asked for by a subsection of customers makes you lazy?
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Maybe that's the lazy part - darn the devs not wanting to keep using Excel to create missions! Lazy, lazy, lazy!
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Originally Posted by Yomo_Kimyata
You made some good points, but let's not forget that the whole impetus behind AE was the reality television driver. "Wait, our clients want more content? Let's charge them AND make them develop new content for us. Brilliant! No, you are brilliant!"
The way I look at it, the developers are just lazy and sloppy for asking their subscribers to create content AND for not fixing exploits related to that content creation. Hey, we are all lazy and sloppy to some extent. But I wouldn't hire any of these people if I had a serious job I needed done. |
You really believe that? I would love to hear the logic behind that. I'm begging you to fill me in on your amazing insight.
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People on both sides of this argument have some points. But this quote of yours is a bit of a misrepresentation of the side opposite your argument. It would have been more accurate to say "..for anyone who does not use AE as it was intended to be used." Paragon Studios has been clear from the start about AE's purpose as a content creation tool. It was never intended to be used as a leveling treadmill, and in fact, such use of AE is counter to the stated goal of Paragon Studios to maintain a risk/reward ratio that has taken years to achieve.|
Originally Posted by Bad_Influence
Content Police are people like those in here salivating at the thought of mass bannings for anyone who does not use AE as they think it should be used.
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So instead of debating on whether some forumites are overreacting, maybe the REAL question here is whether you think Paragon Studios should revise its stance regarding leveling treadmills (farms).
The introduction of AE and subsequent farms never impacted my playstyle. Such is my stubbornness that I continued to play my way irrespective of any changes to the game. Therefore I'm quite distanced from all of this. And being a neutral party with an unformed opinion, I'd appreciate seeing reasonable arguments rather than misrepresentations.
@Captain-Electric � Detective Marvel � The Sapien Spider � Moravec Man � The Old Norseman
Dark-Eyes � Doctor Serpentine � Stonecaster � Skymaiden � The Blue Jaguar
Guide to Altitis � A Comic for New Players � The Lore Project � Intro to extraterrestrials in CoH
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But the devs ARE responsible if sloppy coding or system design allowed these exploits to exist - and not just the once. And the company IS responsible if those exploits once identified are not removed quickly. If you run a 24/7 365 day service then you need the resources in place at all times to deal with urgent issues.|
Originally Posted by Ice_Wall
AE is a great tool, it wasn't designed so the Devs could stop making content and the Devs aren't responsible for people abusing it.
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Originally Posted by Ice_Wall
People should stop being pissed at the Devs for the fact that other people abuse the system, start getting pissed at the people who exploit the system, they are the problem.
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Will we all be banned or have toons deleted this week? I hope the devs realise that the "typical" AE farmer may actually be a much larger proportion of the players than some would suggest.
Well the 2 most popular ones are gone.
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I don't frown on playstyles that are different from mine, but cheating for in-game rewards is extreme enough to peak my curiosity. Major_Control, what motivates you to take these sorts of risks with your account? Experience points or other in-game rewards?|
Originally Posted by Major_Control
I abused the system, ALL my sg abused the system, ALL the sg leaders abused the system - and this is the 2nd biggest sg on Defiant. We all made lots of toons we had never tried and took them to level 22ish. Many of these will get deleted this week. We made some extra inf - and we spent some extra inf. We had some fun and we got bored.
Will we all be banned or have toons deleted this week? I hope the devs realise that the "typical" AE farmer may actually be a much larger proportion of the players than some would suggest. |
Also, are you suggesting that groups of cheaters, like the one you're a member of, are large (and by extension influential) enough to break the Terms of Service and Code of Conduct with fewer worries than individual cheaters?
If you and your super group (or some other super group) suffered minimal consequences or no consequences after cheating, do you think large groups of cheaters might begin to feel as though they could keep Paragon Studios and NCSoft at a disadvantage? No one's saying it, but that seems to be one of the implications I'm reading between the lines here.
@Captain-Electric � Detective Marvel � The Sapien Spider � Moravec Man � The Old Norseman
Dark-Eyes � Doctor Serpentine � Stonecaster � Skymaiden � The Blue Jaguar
Guide to Altitis � A Comic for New Players � The Lore Project � Intro to extraterrestrials in CoH
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I think he was just trying to say by mentioning his SG that farming is widespread and enjoyed by many, and that every time they nerf something it angers a whole group of people and a wave of subscriptions tend to end1 . The forumites like to make farmers out as a minority and vilify them. I wouldn't call it "cheating" either, some players enter those maps with a goal in mind, use it to get to it, and leave, cheating sounds reckless |
Originally Posted by Captain-Electric
I don't frown on playstyles that are different from mine, but cheating for in-game rewards is extreme enough to peak my curiosity. Major_Control, what motivates you to take these sorts of risks with your account? Experience points or other in-game rewards?
Also, are you suggesting that groups of cheaters, like the one you're a member of, are large (and by extension influential) enough to break the Terms of Service and Code of Conduct with fewer worries than individual cheaters? If you and your super group (or some other super group) suffered minimal consequences or no consequences after cheating, do you think large groups of cheaters might begin to feel as though they could keep Paragon Studios and NCSoft at a disadvantage? No one's saying it, but that seems to be one of the implications I'm reading between the lines here. |
.They also don't ban every account/delete every character that completes an "exploit" arc; some of them may be genuine AE supporters hoping for a good story and enter it unaware, that wouldn't be fair to them. After it was announced that the AE was not meant for farming and there would be "consequences" rule #1 of farming became "don't use the word farm in your description and don't leave it blank. Even if the cover-story is just plain stupid use one."2, so it's very conceivable people looking for stories could believe that's what they're signing on for when they start the arc.
Some characters also use it for a few levels then leave. Say someone spent a year alting around and take an alt at lv35 and make it 42 in an afternoon from an "exploit", does that character and all of it's honest progress deserve to be wiped off the server for putting a small dent in it's lvl? It is usually the 1-50s that get wiped. Some say it's not fair to the new players who "didn't know any better"...but whether the new person knew better or not it should be deleted, nobody wants these lv50s who just upgraded from their trial yesterday running around.
Then on the other side are people with the 78 month vet badges who've played every AT and powerset twice and want to try a new combo out. They know the powers, they know the AT, if they go 1-50 in 10 hours they aren't a hindrance to anyone they team with at 50; they know enough to know what they're doing.
1-when the first exploit of AE was removed and the devs explained that they gave us the ability to make what we want, but only within their specific imaginary guidelines 100s were enraged and left, some just out of priniciple who never farmed anyway. They didn't want to be a part of a company that ran like that. I'd be comfortable saying maybe 1,000 even. Then the following nerfs as exploits were found put the nail in the coffin for much smaller numbers of players, but still money lost..and for what really?
2-Something the devs hate, "pollution" of the stories in the AE. Which is why farmers have suggested a "Farm" content label and just be left alone. But in the devs eyes it still leaves the "pl to boredom" and "scaring away noobs" issue I guess.
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Originally Posted by Captain-Electric
No one's saying it
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Originally Posted by Captain-Electric
I'm reading between the lines here.
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I am saying that an awful lot of players have seen and used the exploit - and do not think of ourselves as "cheaters". It was fun while it lasted but good riddance when its gone.
What I would like is some kind of "protoyping AE mission" where super fast levelling was possible but that toon was locked into AE and only those missions with no rewards other than the levels - with possibly an option to "buy" a release with merits or some other game mechanic.
"Trying out an AT" is what attracted every one of my friends to this exploit and a way to do this legitamately would add to the game (my very personal opinion).
The idea that anyone partaking of these farms will be banned is ridiculous. Didn't happen after Positrons post-Meow-meow rant and won't happen this time.
Two things will probably happen :
1) The devs will fix it and remain silent on the issue. This seems to be their new modus operandi with a lot of things nowadays (as Munki says earlier this could be as directed by NCSoft in general).
2) A few "worst offenders" will be made examples of and have the offending toons stripped of XP. This won't be even close to the number of people who have run the arcs, it will tend to be the 1-50 in 2 hours crew. People who used the arcs to get over boring sections of the game will be untouched.
I wish I'd know about it earlier, I'd probably have used it to avoid the 1-20 game with a few characters I've been experimenting with.
I think locking the PL'ed avatars for the average time it takes to get to 50 would be a suitable reward - no one loses anything, but they don't profit from it either
@Golden Girl
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