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Well, just one reason...|
Originally Posted by Ironik
And there isn't even a reason to do it.
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Dr. Todt's theme.
i make stuff...
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disagree with your disagreement.|
Originally Posted by Ironik
Disagree.
That's EXACTLY the canon definition of magic, according to War Witch-NPC. If you were to postulate Jackie Chan not having his amazing physical gifts until the magical Well of Furies unleashed its mojo on the world, then you aren't talking about a Natural Scrapper but rather a Magical one, plain and simple. If Tony Stark couldn't come up with Iron Man until after being touched by the Well's "inspiration," then you're no longer talking a Tech hero but rather a Magic one. There's simply no getting around the fact that if the source of all inspiration is Magic, then everything it touches automatically becomes of Magic origin, too. |
darth maul used a martial arts style based on manipulating a underlying force in conjunction with physical skills. he did so no through ritual, alchemy or contact with higher planar entities , but instead through mental and physical training. had he not had access to that underlying force, his discipline and training would still have allowed him to act as something comparable to a scrapper, but as he gained mastery of the force as well as his own physical capacities, he became to normal people like what an incarnate is seemingly to a normal superhero, simply above their capacity. his origin of power is still discipline and training, so he still is "natural" through our definitions, even if his capacities are well above what someone natural could do.
similarly, in marvel zombies, reed richard's zombie used his super science to simulate the silver surfer's power cosmic and injure galacticus. he was not a cosmic entity, but through technology he still wielded a force beyond what his technology had previously been capable of. in theory if , as in your example, iron man had gained access to the underlying source of the power cosmic by some element of his power armor, then it still would be the technology that gives him his power, not his own command of the power cosmic.
As for war witch's comments on the origin of power arc..honestly i have only done that as a villain, but from how he and others discussed powers, it really seemed more their interpretations of where the power came from, rather than the hard truth. so i viewed that particular arc as a nice in character bit of how those who wield the powers viewed them, but canon contradicts elements of the mutant thing already with the priest who was a mutant but lived well before the atomic bomb, so i saw it more as an exposition of npc motivations (the vil magic guy is a power mad Nietzscheian, marshall brass has a chip on his shoulder) as a hard and unchangeable bit of canon .
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Originally Posted by Ironik
The game used to be wide open, but they got infected with the "directed gameplay" meme at some point when designing CoV and it's been hanging around ever since. Just add the mechanics and let us decide how to roleplay them. Easy-peasy. Even better for the Devs because then they don't have to bend over backwards coming up with utter nonsense like Powerset Proliferation explanations. Frees up all kinds of time for them to write story arcs.
Have you ever rolled a robot character -- or, heck, just a BALD one -- and gone into a mission where the pop-up text reads, "You slick back your hair and get ready to fight." It simply doesn't fit your character at all. Origin of Power, Powerset Proliferation and Incarnates are exactly like that pop-up, writ large and affecting every single character in the game. And there isn't even a reason to do it. |
And thus an argument for why Jedi are Natural Origin.
i suspect i really do not want into any argument that intersects the venn diagram of star wars fans and origin rp fanatics 
I predict a terrible storm of nerd rage.
Jedi's are natural origin if they were master martial artist before they used the force and still concentrate on their martial arts.
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Funny enough, for me it's the opposite (kind of).|
Originally Posted by Emberly
Are people seriously worked up about how they are or are not going to RP the incarnate system?
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At first I intended to completely ignore all the incarnate stuff, but with how cool the Mender Remiel arc was, I was thinking of playing it out a bit differently, like the first mission being that, my main character, discovers that as powerful as he's become through the Incarnate process, he's also being equally a raging @#$%&bag and bat@#$% insane, but in the end, even now I'm still debating HOW to INTEGRATE this incarnate lore with him.
My other toons will have less of a problem.
My blaster's basically going to become an Exalted (Sidereal or solar, not sure which) and that's basically the same thing as an Incarnate, really. (maybe?)
My Empath's going to simply hit a magical version of a technological singularity within herself.
My DB brute... is simply going to take more levels in badass. (Incarnate lore I'll ignore with him, just because, IMO, he's my coolest toon out of all of them, and I often see his fighting style being like what you see in Batman, the Borne Identity trilogy, or the Assassin's Creed franchise)
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
City of Heroes is a game about freedom of expression and variety of experiences far more so than it is about representing any one theme, topic or genre.
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With this sentence, you've converted me. I agree with you fully.
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Originally Posted by Ironik
Just add the mechanics and let us decide how to roleplay them
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Hey, dudes! It all started when a friend gave me some magic coffee beans. As you surely know, you can't just throw beans in a cup with hot water and have coffee, you have to grind them and then brew them! So I got on eWay and found this way cool coffee grinder that was supposed to have been stolen from the flying saucer that crashed at Roswell. It's got lots of weird blinking lights and when you turn the handle the room gets all warpy. Yeah! Then I brewed the ground up beans in a Crey 9000 Coffee Maker I found behind a dumpster in Brickstown. It had some kind of wacky glowing goop all over it, but most of it off rinsed right off. Anyway, for some reason when I drank the coffee it interacted with my 'naturally pre-disposed to mutation' biosystem and turned me into one tough SOB! So tough, in fact, that the lab guys have classified me as a 'tanker'. Pretty cool, huh. Anyway. Want some coffee?
Interestingly so the two 'known' slots can be used by multiple Origins.
So you're natural and you've got the Alpha slot unlocked.
Guns:
+Damage: Specialised bullets beyond the normal 'regular/cold/toxic/flame' rounds. For more damage against Flesh targets you are now using Hollowpoint rounds for more damage against Robots etc. you are now using Armour piercing rounds. For the exotic rounds...well you found a supplier with a more potent variant of said rounds or you figured out how to make them better.
+Accuracy: This one is pretty damn easy, either you now have a scope for long range or you tweaked your iron sights so they are now more accurate than they were before.
+Endurance: You now have a shoulder stock on your guns which helps lower recoil and thus you don't have to strain to keep them trained on the target when firing for Pistols or you got a strap which spreads the weight for Assault Rifle meaning it is less effort to heft around.
+Recharge enhancement: Auto-ammo reloaders, larger magazine size allowing you to fire more often.
Swords:
+Damage enhancement: Given your blade a good sharpen with a whet stone, picked up a new sword with a sharper edge, added a new material to the edge (like you now have am Impervium/Diamond cutting edge instead of just regular metal).
+Accuracy: You just know where to hit and when and your extensive training with your favoured blade(s) is showing through. That or you simply improved the weight spread of the blade so it allowed you to strike with more accuracy.
+Endurance: Lighter blade design, better weight distrubtion which means you don't strain as hard.
+Recharge: Better weighted blade means that you're not struggling to overcompensate for it on the follow through but it still remains a heavy blade.
The Alpha slot is fairly easy to explain away in 'Natural' terms. It is going to be the next slots which are tough.
Though judging by the leaked [Ion Storm Final Judgement] there is definitely an additional tech option for Judgement (that name SCREAMS Ion Cannon bombardment AoE), don't think it's much of a leap for a Natural person to be able to call in an Ion Cannon strike using a target designator mounted on their guns.
Interface, if it remains the same as it was during the leak on test will be the harder one to explain, the stacking -res debuff option/stacking -def debuff option/stacking -regen debuff option/+Fire damage (would work similar to Fiery Embrace now works) option.
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For a comics example of a god with a gun, please see the central character of Mark MIllar's "Wanted:" perhaps the greatest ode to supervillains ever.| A man using barehands and feet, or utilizing any element, I'd understand(for the bare-handed godlikes, see the Dragonball saga), but if you are simply a man(or woman)with a gun or sword(however technologically advanced), how would that work? |
The gun does not make you a god. It is your abilities that make you a god; the guns are just how you get things done. I see no logistical problem with it. If you didn't have guns, you'd have something else.
With that said however, I find the DP set very lacking - and so underpowered that I deleted my level 24[?] DP character. I won't be back until the set is adjusted because its just woefully sub-par IMO.
I'd say that Roland of Gilead makes a pretty good 'Incarnate shootist' type. The descriptions of his shooting in the Dark Tower books go a bit beyond the normal, I'd say. He's magnitudes better than any 'normal awesomely good shooter' type.
Eco.
MArcs:
The Echo, Arc ID 1688 (5mish, easy, drama)
The Audition, Arc ID 221240 (6 mish, complex mech, comedy)
Storming Citadel, Arc ID 379488 (lowbie, 1mish, 10-min timed)
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
[The Incarnate System is] Jack Emmert all over again, only this time it's not "1 hero = 3 white minions" it's "1 hero = 3 white rocks."
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I don't think lack of specificity needs to be also bland. Let me try to make up a couple.|
Originally Posted by rian_frostdrake
several robots, but ya know, back from issue 1 i somehow got the vahzilok wasting disease, despite being a robot or angel. maybe im just more relaxed about things, but i understand where they are going with it and appreciate the attempts to add color to the text, even if it misses some times, because frankly i found a lot of early coh story content amazingly bland because of that very lack of specificity. i even felt that the ancillaries were poorly handled because of that, seemed silly that i just went from kicking and dodging really well to suddenly shooting lazers from my eyes. ultimatly there will always be situations where they hold too tight, and some where they seem bland for lack of detail, and there really isnt a right answer to how much of each to give or take.
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"There are people screaming in terror in here. Time to make them scream louder."
There is not a single thing there that talks about your character but it's dripping with menace. You're a villain and you might be motivated for all sorts of reasons to make them suffer, but it says nothing about your motivation or even how to accomplish your goal. Are you going to kill a few to terrify the others, use your magical "Scare Stare" power or simply be menacing? It's all up to you.
"The bad guys are here already. They won't be staying... or ever coming back."
Same deal as above. Nothing about your hero is contained there, but it's hardly bland.
"Inside the door, the temperature is noticeably lower. Time to bring the heat."
How do you notice it? Are you a regular person so you're now chilly? A robot with an on-board thermometer? An alien who can tell just by how it looks that it's cold? Player's choice.
The Alt Alphabet ~ OPC: Other People's Characters ~ Terrific Screenshots of Cool ~ Superhero Fiction
The phrase "God with a Gun" makes me think of one scene from the Ultron book in Mighty Avengers. Ultron is controlling all of the suits Iron Man has ever built, and fighting the Avengers with them. Ares leaps into the fray, with his usual armament, and starts destroying them. Wait, aren't Iron Man suits supposed to be pretty tough to destroy?
For the melee weapons you could point to his godly strength. But in one panel he uses what is clearly a normal rifle to blow apart several Iron Man suits. There are no rifles that can blow apart Iron Man like that. So how does it happen?
He's the God of War. In his hands, any weapon is an instrument of divine power. Yes, he's also extremely skilled, and accurate, and strong, and fast, but part of his power also seems to be that his weapons become more powerful.
That's my view on how a divine being with a mundane weapon might work. The power isn't in the weapon.
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Ooh, ooh, I have some!|
Originally Posted by Ironik
I don't think lack of specificity needs to be also bland. Let me try to make up a couple.
"There are people screaming in terror in here. Time to make them scream louder." "The bad guys are here already. They won't be staying... or ever coming back." "Inside the door, the temperature is noticeably lower. Time to bring the heat." |
"The sign above the door said Exit but you went in anyway."
"You entered through an office door and now you're in a blue cave. There's something wrong here. Something terribly, terribly wrong."
"Is that pie you smell? A la mode? No. It's just cream cheese on whole wheat toast. Fine. If that's how it's going to be, that's how it's going to be. No pie. No mercy. No quarter."
I think people need to stop thinking of Incarnates as gods like Zeus level nigh-omnipotent things. You won't get that power. Also, people that go "I'm an Incarnate! I wiggle my eyebrows and Pluto crashes into your face!" will be hit with my own Incarnate power: Global Ignore. Godmodding and power level pissing contests is boring.
You might be closer to the legendary Epic Heroes than the modern concepts of gods. Probably a better way to think of it. You're closer to, say, Hercules or Gilgamesh or Cuchulain or Achilles than Zeus or Ares or the Archangels. You're powerful, sure, but you're also a badass. Skill with power, rather than just epic overwhelming power. And in many of the stories, the epic hero had to think fast to beat the monster. Hercules figured out how to keep Hydra's heads from regenerating, etc. They didn't just wave their massive god powers at them to make the monsters keel over. They earned those victories by also being tough and cunning warriors.
Also notice that a lot of legendary heroes had their signature gear. Cuchulain had Gae Bulg, Hercules had that coat made from the Nemean Lion, Arthur had Excalibur, etc.
Or, hell, just don't say that being an incarnate means you can beat Loki in an eating contest. That seems sensible. I think people are really, really over-emphasizing the "power of the gods" thing to an absurd level.
You want to know the secret of the world? It's this: Save it, and it'll repay you, every second of every day.
@Dr. Reverend - My DeviantArt Gallery
Crow Call - Gods of the Golden Age
I haven't seen anyone make such radical claims.
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Those are some VERY poor choices for "not hax power level" heroes.|
Originally Posted by Doc_Reverend
I think people need to stop thinking of Incarnates as gods like Zeus level nigh-omnipotent things. You won't get that power. Also, people that go "I'm an Incarnate! I wiggle my eyebrows and Pluto crashes into your face!" ... Godmodding and power level pissing contests is boring.
You might be closer to the legendary Epic Heroes than the modern concepts of gods. Probably a better way to think of it. You're closer to, say, Hercules or Gilgamesh or Cuchulain or Achilles ... |
Hercules altered geography on a small scale to clean out a stable and soloed a GM, Gilgamesh Duoed what would probably amount to the Cathedral of pain, and then killed the bull of Heaven, and Cu Chulainn CUT THE HEADS OFF OF MOUNTAINS WITH A MISSED SWORD SWING.
I'm sure if the old world understood planets and moons as being as large as they actually were/could see some of them you would have found myths involving epic heroes LEAPING INTO SPACE AND SLAM DUNKING PLANETS INTO THEIR FOE'S FACES.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
City of Heroes is a game about freedom of expression and variety of experiences far more so than it is about representing any one theme, topic or genre.
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I could see an argument for Jedi being Magic too.
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Originally Posted by LISAR
Jedi's are natural origin if they were master martial artist before they used the force and still concentrate on their martial arts.
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See? It's not hard at all.
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Originally Posted by Flarstux
Ooh, ooh, I have some!
"The sign above the door said Exit but you went in anyway." "You entered through an office door and now you're in a blue cave. There's something wrong here. Something terribly, terribly wrong." "Is that pie you smell? A la mode? No. It's just cream cheese on whole wheat toast. Fine. If that's how it's going to be, that's how it's going to be. No pie. No mercy. No quarter." |
The Alt Alphabet ~ OPC: Other People's Characters ~ Terrific Screenshots of Cool ~ Superhero Fiction
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Midochlorians. |
Originally Posted by ThePill
I could see an argument for Jedi being Magic too.
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(Dramatic music to cover the nerds dying from rage)
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"That's what she said!"|
Originally Posted by Ironik
See? It's not hard at all.
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"Donuts, you sense donuts. There are pastries somewhere in here."
"It is dark here. You are likely to be eaten by a Grue."
"The trail of discarded apple butter jars led here."
Yup, it is pretty easy.
Edit: i probably shouldn't write mission entry text on an empty stomach. Time to go cook some food.
Dr. Todt's theme.
i make stuff...
Natural Origin. You are in absolute peak human physical conditioning.
Even so, you have inherent limitations, some physical and some psychological.
When you encounter the Incarnate force, it permeates every part of your body, mind, and soul at a subatomic level...removing your limitations, smoothing over your psychological issues, releasing your perfect self.
You're you. You're Natural. You're just an absolutely perfect You.
You could have reached that point on your own, given enough time.
The Incarnate force just showed you the way.
ha but my heroes dislike pie, that text would ruin my play experience, stifle my creativity, delete all the video games off my hard drive and sign me up for bonzi buddy.
Have you ever rolled a robot character -- or, heck, just a BALD one -- and gone into a mission where the pop-up text reads, "You slick back your hair and get ready to fight." It simply doesn't fit your character at all. Origin of Power, Powerset Proliferation and Incarnates are exactly like that pop-up, writ large and affecting every single character in the game. And there isn't even a reason to do it.
The Alt Alphabet ~ OPC: Other People's Characters ~ Terrific Screenshots of Cool ~ Superhero Fiction