Quick question: For mutants, won't the Well just accelerate their mutation and make them Omega Level and not gods?
Form Wiki:
Omega-level mutants
"An Omega-level mutant is one with the most powerful genetic potential of their mutant abilities. The term was first seen in the 1986 issue Uncanny X-Men #208, but was completely unexplained (beyond the obvious implication of it referring to an exceptional level of power). The term was not seen again until the 2001 limited series X-Men Forever. Some abilities depicted by mutants described as Omega-level include immortality, extreme manipulation of matter and energy, high psionic ability, strong telekinesis, and the potential to exist beyond the boundaries of the known physical universe. No firm definition has been offered in comics. Mutants that have been confirmed as Omega-level include Jean Grey, Vulcan,Rachel Summers, Iceman,Legion, Elixir, and Franklin Richards."
Not magic, but a science that just unlocked mutant potential to unknown levels maybe?
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What I actually said was that if someone uses a mojo hand, then they aren't magic because it's just a tool. That's the same as using a rifle or a car or a mechanical pencil. The Well of Furies, though, changes something fundamental inside your character via magic, thus changing your origin from whatever it was to Magic. It's the "fundamental change" part that people seem to keep forgetting. Your cyborg was great, all due to his Technology origin. But now he's awesome, because the Well of Furies has permanently and irrevocably infused his being, his very essence, with abilities beyond even his normal ones, and it does it with magic. Thus, your character has been changed on a fundamental level and has become Magic origin.|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
So you're saying that someone using devices far beyond real world technology, such as the Traps or Devices powersets, is actually Natural. Even though they wouldn't have those abilities without the devices they use?
You kind of missed my point. Incarnate abilities don't change your initial abilities. Without them, you are still just as super as you were before. They simply give you new abilities. If my cyborg Claws/Regen scrapper gets a shot of magic, he is still technology origin, because if you take that magic away he will remain a cyborg. He does not suddenly become a magic creature just because he got some extra powers from another source. Your statement I quoted was implying that if someone uses magic, or gains something from magic, it irrevocably changes the origin of the powers they had before. I was pointing out the fallacy of that statement, but doing it in a tongue in cheek way. |
Before... could your cyborg do what he does because of Technology? Yes.
After... can your cyborg do what he does because of Technology? No. He does it because of magic. Ergo, his Origin has changed. He has changed on a fundamental level.
If you get an inoculation against the flu, then you are protected via science but are still Natural origin. However, if that inoculation changes the way your cells operate, then you become Science origin. I don't know how many times I can say the same thing before you guys get my point.
Maybe it's the word "origin" that's the hang up, but I'm using that the way the game does, as a synonym for "power source" NOT as a synonym for "beginning." Yes, your cyborg started out as a tech guy, but after he becomes an incarnate he will be a magic guy. Magic has changed the basic way he works and he couldn't operate on that level without magic, therefore he is magic. It may not be expressed in stereotypical magical ways -- he still shoots lasers or whatever -- but nonetheless his very being is dependent upon magic to operate. And yes, if you took the magic out or sent him back in time before the Well changed him, then he would revert to being a technology guy. But as long as he relies on the Well's magic to perform at Incarnate levels, then he's Magic.
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First of all, ixnay on arvelMay. Different universe, different rules. Marvel's mutants are not Paragon's mutants, so whatever works in *their* universe does not work here. Here the Well makes you into an Incarnate, which seems to be code for demigod. Since the Well is magic, then it doesn't accomplish anything through science. No one's making a note here, it's not a huge success.|
Originally Posted by LegionAlpha
Quick question: For mutants, won't the Well just accelerate their mutation and make them Omega Level and not gods?
Form Wiki: Omega-level mutants "An Omega-level mutant is one with the most powerful genetic potential of their mutant abilities. The term was first seen in the 1986 issue Uncanny X-Men #208, but was completely unexplained (beyond the obvious implication of it referring to an exceptional level of power). The term was not seen again until the 2001 limited series X-Men Forever. Some abilities depicted by mutants described as Omega-level include immortality, extreme manipulation of matter and energy, high psionic ability, strong telekinesis, and the potential to exist beyond the boundaries of the known physical universe. No firm definition has been offered in comics. Mutants that have been confirmed as Omega-level include Jean Grey, Vulcan,Rachel Summers, Iceman,Legion, Elixir, and Franklin Richards." Not magic, but a science that just unlocked mutant potential to unknown levels maybe? |
To couch it in Marvel terms -- if Iceman suddenly became permanently uberpowerful because he was exposed to the super soldier treatment, then he would have started as a Mutant and become a Science. If Dr. Strange gave him an amulet to use in emergencies, he'd still be Mutant using a Magic tool. However, if Dr. Strange cast a spell on Iceman and he became permanently uberpowerful as a result, he becomes Magic. He's still making ice slides and throwing snowballs and whatnot, but doing it at a vastly improved rate and increased scale ONLY BECAUSE of magic... then he's magic. If he's doing because of his secondary mutation, then he's still a Mutant.
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Here's the thing, its a game with your character being the center of the storyline. The game is based on comics, so the number one rule is that anything is up for grabs.
If you want, your natural character's story can involve the well of the furies, or whatever gives you your incarnate powers, actually failing and your character rises to a new level of being out of sheer willpower due to a simple need for being better then s/he is. Then you could even say that character succeeded where Statesman failed, tossing a jab at the idea that he was ever the best yet here you end up beating him, succeeding at his lie.
My current toy is a Dual pistols/Traps defender, he's magic origin and he's been around longer than Statesman or even Nemesis. He was at one time trained by Merlin himself. Yet the game says implies there were no powers before the pandora's box bussiness. How does this work? The game makes assumptions based on what the characters speaking believe and could know, meaning they could be wrong. This let's the story have structure, but allows writers the ability to change what they want when they want. The plus is, as the writer for your character you can use this to your advantage and change stuff as well.
I say that powers existed before Pandora's box was open, and that's why my character works. I rectify this contradiction to game cannon by saying that as far as people knew there weren't powers before then, but they were wrong and simply speaking based off of their experience up and until the point they met my character. Sister Psyche does the same thing in the origin of powers mission. "Well they think this, but really that's just a guess and I disagree with them. I think this." to paraphrase. You could do the same thing for any mutant origin character. Try this:
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I made one character based soley on the idea I had for how powerset proliferation worked. I made up a whole story for how proliferation worked and made a character based on it simply because I liked the story. This is allowed, it's your character's story, so change stuff to fit. Your allowed. 80 ITF's might be run in one day, but when your character's team does it, they're the only ones that can, have or ever will. It's your character's story, make it what you want.|
Originally Posted by Some mutant, pissed off about ignoring mutant existance prior to 1938
"People thought we didn't exist until 1938. Huh, if they only knew. Spliting an atom is one way to cause a mutation, but there have been Mutants and mutations since there have been living creatures. You may not have named us, you may not have know us, but you may not ignore us"
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Tech: You invent a device that siphons the power of the well allowing it's use as a new energy source for your tech, supercharging your devices. Yes, the well is the catalyst, but that's all it is, it's the tech that harnesses the power and makes it usable otherwise the well would be like a batery with nothing to power. The well would exist, but without the tech it would do you no good.I.E. your character does what he does because of the tech not the well. Any power source at that level could have worked, the well was just convinient.
Mutation: Your genetic structure undergoes a secondary mutation due to proximity to the well. Again the well is a catalyst, similar to the spliting of the atom which is science itself, yet was catalyst to many mutations. The mutation is what allows you to actually do anything. Again, the well would exist, but if it weren't for the mutation the well would do you no benefit, additionally such a mutation could have been triggered by another source. In this case, however, it just happened to be the well.
Magic: Abracadabra, the well makes you stronger.
Science: After rigorous experimentation on the well you develop a way to generate water matching that of the well of the furies within your body.
Natural: You made it to the well of the furies, but you didn't take a drink because you weren't thirsty. Such a display of badassery sends you to a new level of enormity. Stay thirsty my friends. You needed the well a lot more than I did.
Nothing will ever be perfect, but most issues can be fixed with enough creativity.
Oh and just something I want to ask, where is it said that the well of furies is magic and not a fundimental part of the natural order, and the functioning of the primal earth's universe? Where has any origin been given to the well, or incarnate powers for that matter?
Murphys Military Law
#23. Teamwork is essential; it gives the enemy other people to shoot at.
#46. If you can't remember, the Claymore is pointed towards you.
#54. Killing for peace is like screwing for virginity.
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Thank you. People tend to forget that this is a comic book game and the rules do not apply to the CoX universe. |
Originally Posted by William_Valence
Here's the thing, its a game with your character being the center of the storyline. The game is based on comics, so the number one rule is that anything is up for grabs.
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| I say that powers existed before Pandora's box was open, and that's why my character works. I rectify this contradiction to game cannon by saying that as far as people knew there weren't powers before then, but they were wrong and simply speaking based off of their experience up and until the point they met my character. Sister Psyche does the same thing in the origin of powers mission. "Well they think this, but really that's just a guess and I disagree with them. I think this." to paraphrase. You could do the same thing for any mutant origin character. |
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| Mutation: Your genetic structure undergoes a secondary mutation due to proximity to the well. Again the well is a catalyst, similar to the splitting of the atom which is science itself, yet was catalyst to many mutations. The mutation is what allows you to actually do anything. Again, the well would exist, but if it weren't for the mutation the well would do you no benefit, additionally such a mutation could have been triggered by another source. In this case, however, it just happened to be the well. |
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| Oh and just something I want to ask, where is it said that the well of furies is magic and not a fundamental part of the natural order, and the functioning of the primal earth's universe? Where has any origin been given to the well, or incarnate powers for that matter? |
Really. You and I need to exchange ideas man, I like the way you think.
Think of it this way, the well is an amplifier, and your origin is the source.
Sure, it amplifies your innate abilities, but without those innate abilities, it would have nothing to amplify. It even works that way in the Alpha Slot gameplay, the powers enhance the abilities you have, but not you yourself.
That's why it doesn't change your origin.
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I disagree. I think a tool (whether a magical sword, a gun or whatever) can change a characters origin. The critical question is if you took away their special item and gave them a generic one from a store how much ability would they lose?|
Originally Posted by Ironik
What I actually said was that if someone uses a mojo hand, then they aren't magic because it's just a tool. That's the same as using a rifle or a car or a mechanical pencil.
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If you gave Inigo Montoya a magical sword that was sharper and stronger than his ancestral weapon (ignoring the morale bonus he gets for wielding that) he would still be a Natural character since his "core" ability is his skill with a sword. On the other hand if you gave me (a person notoriously clumsy) a magical sword that granted me Inigo Montoya skill levels while I was wielding it I would become magical origin since my abilities are dependent on magic to work, replace my magic sword with a standard one and I'd be useless with it. If Inigo and I swapped our magical swords this would be even more apparent, his skill level would be basically unchanged while a magically sharp sword doesn't do me any good.
If the tool enhances existing abilities then or grants abilities that are minor compared to existing ones (like the example I used a while back of a master swordsman who gets a sword that shoots fireballs) then I agree that it doesn't change their origin but when the tool is fundamental to their abilities I think it does.
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| The Well of Furies, though, changes something fundamental inside your character via magic, thus changing your origin from whatever it was to Magic. It's the "fundamental change" part that people seem to keep forgetting. Your cyborg was great, all due to his Technology origin. But now he's awesome, because the Well of Furies has permanently and irrevocably infused his being, his very essence, with abilities beyond even his normal ones, and it does it with magic. Thus, your character has been changed on a fundamental level and has become Magic origin. |
It's also completely ignoring the possibility of character who, storywise, are not getting any direct power from the Well but instead are gaining knowledge that they can use to enhance existing powers. The Natural character who, in his dreams, is trained in swordplay by the heroes of Greek mythology. The Technology character who gains the ability to telepathically communicate with his alternates in other dimensions to collaborate on research projects. In both cases the new ability granted to the character is magical but it doesn't directly impact their abilities as a super hero, instead ti grants them the knowledge they need to improve their own abilities.
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| Maybe it's the word "origin" that's the hang up, but I'm using that the way the game does, as a synonym for "power source" NOT as a synonym for "beginning." Yes, your cyborg started out as a tech guy, but after he becomes an incarnate he will be a magic guy. Magic has changed the basic way he works and he couldn't operate on that level without magic, therefore he is magic. It may not be expressed in stereotypical magical ways -- he still shoots lasers or whatever -- but nonetheless his very being is dependent upon magic to operate. And yes, if you took the magic out or sent him back in time before the Well changed him, then he would revert to being a technology guy. But as long as he relies on the Well's magic to perform at Incarnate levels, then he's Magic. |
Your assumption seems to be that the magic from the Well is changing all of your abilities to work due to magic but I see nothing in the Incarnate content that suggests that. The magic is, at most, providing a boost up to your existing abilities. Suppose you have a cyborg who has the ability to shoot laser beams from his eyes. Even after becoming an incarnate he still needs the laser eye beam projectors to do this which is why his origin remains technology. He uses magic to boost up his powers but without the technology the magic is useless.
A few examples:
My Pistols/Storm Corruptor Jack Steam is Magic Origin. However his pistol skills are entirely natural. His magical skills lie in his ability to manipulate the atmosphere in a localized area, he lacks the fine control to use this to shoot more effectively and he sucks at enchantment so his pistols are perfectly ordinary guns. He has two power sources: magic for his storm abilities and natural for his pistol skills. I selected Magic for his origin since of his power sources I think this is the one that really sets him apart. If you took away his guns he could still toss you around the room, if you took away his magical abilities he's just a punk with a gun.
Taking your example of a Cyborg who gains Incarnate powers. He now has two different power sources: Technology and Magic. Which one is his origin? I would say Technology. That is the fundamental source of his powers, the magic is simply providing a power up. If you took away his rocket launcher or his laser eye beam projectors he can't use magic to replicate the effects, if you take away the magic he can still use his abilities, just at reduced effectiveness.
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When you can have an Arachnos Soldier with a Crab Spider Backpack or a Bane Spider Mace and 2 to 5 robotic spiders following you around and still be Natural... I don't think that's the case.
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Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
I disagree. I think a tool (whether a magical sword, a gun or whatever) can change a characters origin.
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That's more an issue with the limitations of the system than anything else. My personal feeling on the matter is that Wolf Spiders are Natural, Crab Spiders are Technology and Bane Spiders are somewhere in between.|
Originally Posted by BenRGamer
When you can have an Arachnos Soldier with a Crab Spider Backpack or a Bane Spider Mace and 2 to 5 robotic spiders following you around and still be Natural... I don't think that's the case.
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The Wolf Spider powers mostly represent basic military skills and training with equipment that, while fancy, is not especially important (the arachnos rifle doesn't seem to be significantly more fancy than a regular gun and the armor is just basic body armor).
The Crab Spider skills are based around the Crab Backpack which due to the tech level and the need to surgically attach it I think counts as Tech origin.
Bane Spiders could go either way depending on what you view as their main skills. The melee attacks could easily be natural attacks but the ranged skills are definitely more tech in nature so I guess what matters is are those the critical powers or the melee attacks?
The robotic spiders I actually consider to be natural powers. The SoA didn't design them and he didn't build them. His ability to control them is caused by his membership in Arachnos so his "power source" for them is natural.
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Nevermind that the game lore contradicts that.|
Originally Posted by BenRGamer
Think of it this way, the well is an amplifier, and your origin is the source.
Sure, it amplifies your innate abilities, but without those innate abilities, it would have nothing to amplify. It even works that way in the Alpha Slot gameplay, the powers enhance the abilities you have, but not you yourself. That's why it doesn't change your origin. |
Look, we can make up anything we want, no one's disputing that. I even said that first, because rationalization is the only way many of my characters can exist with the powers they have. If what you said there floats your boat, have at it. I do similar things with most of my characters already, so the Incarnate stuff isn't going to change that. All I've been saying this entire time is that the game's writers are bound and determined to treat this MMO like a single-player game without regard to what we might bring to the table. Whether they simply aren't considering the ramifications of their stories or they just don't care is a judgment call I leave to you.
The Alt Alphabet ~ OPC: Other People's Characters ~ Terrific Screenshots of Cool ~ Superhero Fiction
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Apparently you're trying to explain that to me (I guess?), but that's PRECISELY what I've been saying all along. A gun is a tool, so is the Iron Man suit. The latter crosses the line and changes your power source (aka "origin"). So if it's the magic sword that makes you awesome, then in Russian comic book terms, the tool is using *you*. Unfortunately you contradict yourself later in your post, but this part right here aligns with what I've been trying to say.|
Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
I disagree. I think a tool (whether a magical sword, a gun or whatever) can change a characters origin. The critical question is if you took away their special item and gave them a generic one from a store how much ability would they lose?
If the tool enhances existing abilities then or grants abilities that are minor compared to existing ones (like the example I used a while back of a master swordsman who gets a sword that shoots fireballs) then I agree that it doesn't change their origin but when the tool is fundamental to their abilities I think it does. |
Let me try yet another analogy: hybrid cars. Are they electric or gas? If you're running on the batteries, then they're electric. Switch to the gas and they're gas. They aren't both at the same time (car guys don't chime in here with how it really works, I know how it really works -- this is an oversimplification for clarification purposes only). In this simplified example, they are one or the other, not both. Same thing with a Magical Cyborg. Either he's tech (as the car is electric when running on batteries) or he's magic (as the car is gas when running on fossil fuel). Switching between magic and tech for him is more complicated than it is to switch between the electric-powered and gas-powered versions of the hybrid car, but the basic concept is the same.
The Alt Alphabet ~ OPC: Other People's Characters ~ Terrific Screenshots of Cool ~ Superhero Fiction
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How am I contradicting myself?|
Originally Posted by Ironik
Apparently you're trying to explain that to me (I guess?), but that's PRECISELY what I've been saying all along. A gun is a tool, so is the Iron Man suit. The latter crosses the line and changes your power source (aka "origin"). So if it's the magic sword that makes you awesome, then in Russian comic book terms, the tool is using *you*. Unfortunately you contradict yourself later in your post, but this part right here aligns with what I've been trying to say.
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| Let me try yet another analogy: hybrid cars. Are they electric or gas? If you're running on the batteries, then they're electric. Switch to the gas and they're gas. They aren't both at the same time (car guys don't chime in here with how it really works, I know how it really works -- this is an oversimplification for clarification purposes only). In this simplified example, they are one or the other, not both. Same thing with a Magical Cyborg. Either he's tech (as the car is electric when running on batteries) or he's magic (as the car is gas when running on fossil fuel). Switching between magic and tech for him is more complicated than it is to switch between the electric-powered and gas-powered versions of the hybrid car, but the basic concept is the same. |
The same thing applies to the magical cyborg. Unless magic is his primary power source (like the Tin Mage) his primary power source is technology.
Here's the way I look at it for a character with multiple power sources. When you take one away what happens to the powers granted by the others? If you take the combustion engine out of a hybrid car it won't run since it needs that to charge the electric motor. If you take the electric motor out you've converted it back to a regular car (yes, this isn't a perfect analogy but you get the point).
If you take the Magic out of the Cyborg he's still a Cyborg if you take the Cyborg out of the Cyborg he promptly vanishes in a flash of logic. The Magic needs the Cyborg to work but the Cyborg doesn't need the Magic. As such the Cyborg is the more fundamental power source and to me THAT is what defines origin.
It's worth noting that it's pretty much getting to the point now where a "natural" origin character could never accomplish the new content in a story/lore sense. Cole and his alternate dimension counterparts are the most powerful beings in the CoH universe. I don't care HOW skilled your natural origin character has become. There is absolutely no way he/she could ever hold a candle to him, or his War Walkers, for that matter.
It may also be a bit of a slip-up by the devs for the game to state that you have the ability to become even more powerful than Statesman or Recluse because your starting point is already one of supernatural ability, whereas they started out as just regular dudes. It kind of just ignores the fact that lots of people may just be playing a regular dude themselves.
One way someone could work in an RP sense would be similar to what I said earlier. The Well doesn't actually give your body any kind of supernatural abilities. Maybe it morphs it's behavior to match your character's wants and attributes. You never had superpowers to enhance and never wanted/needed them. However, to facilitate your need to take on these new threats it enhances the tools you have always used. When you pick up your sword it becomes so powerful it can cut any substance and/or project energy blasts to damage enemies around you.
You aren't becoming super, the well just powers up any weapon you happen to be holding. It's not doing any of the work you, and it's still up to your natural expertise and years of hard work and dedication to wield this powerful new weapon in a useful way.
It's really not that different than how physics (science origin) allows a sword to cut and slash in a way that is proportional to how you manipulate it or how a combination of your marksmanship and ballistics determines where your bullet impacts and with how much force.
Your natural abilities are still absolutely the source of your accomplishments, you just happen to be using tools that are -vastly- more powerful than the ones you've been using.
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I would disagree, but I think this is more a fundamental difference in what we see Origin as. For me personally? I see Origin as just that: the -origin- of your abilities, what got you started, everything you had at your disposal at level 1 (which I admit can be tricky to decide for many characters). To me this makes a Crab Spider as natural as, say, an AR/Dev Blaster. Do they have a big backpack with robot arms with guns and claws attached to them surgically? Oh, yes. Definitely.|
Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
The Crab Spider skills are based around the Crab Backpack which due to the tech level and the need to surgically attach it I think counts as Tech origin.
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But they started off as a Wolf Spider, where they gained all their skills in tactics and combat and such. They only get access to the big guns AFTER proving themselves worthwhile. And in my view the Crab backpack isn't anything more than a really advanced, really cool looking assault rifle. Or four assault rifles I guess. It would be nearly worthless in their hands (on their backs?) without the skills gained previously.
A lot of my characters are Natural Origin, including my main villain (whose ultimate goal was to become an Incarnate). They've gained quite a few abilities that are from sources outside of themselves, but their origin does not change because their origin is where they started. My Mercs/Poison MM would not be anywhere if he had not harnasses his own Natural abilities; neither would my MA/WP Scrapper, nor would my DP/Rad Corruptor. Nothing can change where they started from, no matter how many super serums are injected into them or what magical artifacts of ability enhancement they carry.
I suppose you could argue against my view with "but Statesman and Recluse were natural at the beginning", but this is about the origin of their superpowers right? They both only became special through the Well, thus they are Incarnate origin. My MA/WP scrapper only became special through hard work and physical training. I could go on and on and on with this, honestly.
And that's really all the Incarnate system is for me. Unless they explicitly relabel your origin as "Incarnate", which from what I've read is not the case, then you're just an enhancing the abilities which stem from your origin. Or your origins, if you're playing something which blends them like some of my characters.
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Actually I pretty much agree with that classification (although I word it differently). It's just that for the SoAs I consider level 24 to be level 1. Level 24 is when they actually become "supers", the bits before that are their origin story |
Originally Posted by MaxXavier
I would disagree, but I think this is more a fundamental difference in what we see Origin as. For me personally? I see Origin as just that: the -origin- of your abilities, what got you started, everything you had at your disposal at level 1 (which I admit can be tricky to decide for many characters). To me this makes a Crab Spider as natural as, say, an AR/Dev Blaster. Do they have a big backpack with robot arms with guns and claws attached to them surgically? Oh, yes. Definitely.
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. This also explains why the respec at level 24 allows them to change powers. They were a wolf spider relying on natural training and basic gear but now they hit "level 1" and get promoted to Crab Spider at which point they are officially super.
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That's an interesting way to look at it. Actually, put that way? The Spider AT does thus somewhat resemble the old idea that was mentioned in another thread about starting as a simple mook and then gaining superpowers.|
Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
Actually I pretty much agree with that classification (although I word it differently). It's just that for the SoAs I consider level 24 to be level 1. Level 24 is when they actually become "supers", the bits before that are their origin story
. This also explains why the respec at level 24 allows them to change powers. They were a wolf spider relying on natural training and basic gear but now they hit "level 1" and get promoted to Crab Spider at which point they are officially super. |
I think both interpretations might be valid depending on what you did with the characters. A Crab Spider who was a top-tier Commando-esque Wolf Spider vs. an average Wolf Spider who survives long enough to become a Crab Spider, for one example.
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In response to what people have said about Sister P's little speach about mutants what she actually says is:
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http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Percy_..._Sister_Psyche| Did you know that there were no mutants as we call them before 1938? |
Emphasis is mine. She doesn't say mutants didn't exist before 1938, they were just different from the ones now. What that means, I don't know, but from how I understand it she isn't contradicting any other existing cannon within game.
I personally don't have any issue with them adding a story behind the incarnate system - I will adapt it to fit my own personal story of my characters. I personally think it is still quite vague to be adjusted to anyone.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
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If you read more of that she's suggesting that regular mutants were 1938 and psionics were before, and she, explicitly, is a psionic, not a mutant.
The writing of the whole origin of powers nonsense is very bad at multiple levels.
* Insulting dialogue non-choices that require you to guess wrong to Psyche, call yourself stupid to Tarikoss, claim to not know about Rikti or mythology, etc. This is even more egregious when you consider that it was created as the first example of 'dialogue choices' in the game.
* Misinterpretation of natural origin as meaning no powers. It can also be an alien or such, and the very same issue had fortunata players, natural-only! Both of them tell the natural origin player, explicitly, that they have no powers.
* No mutants before 1938, other than psionics. Only villains are told there are 'sub-types of mutants that perhaps were their own origin,' which at least is a tiny consideration for player origins.
* The idea that human fission was some cosmic event, as if it was the first time in their universe atoms ever got smaller rather than combining?
* Both Synapse and Shelley tell you that you were created in some experiment by somebody else. That ignores most of the sci origin superheroes ever created, working only for those like Synapse and... Captain America? What about those who did it themselves? Accidents like most of Marvel 60's heroes?
* Explaining power proliferation. So, for example, if you were a defender, you couldn't pick up a rifle or use traps until Dr. Brainstorm did some messing with the universe?
* Explaining magic as invented by humans, which must make a lot of sense to, say, a magic origin void creature who reads that arc.
A game is not supposed to be some kind of... place where people enjoy themselves!
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A god with a gun? Right here baby! |
Originally Posted by wildsider316
I was thinking about the Incarnate system, and found this idea intriguing.
How does a "normal" with a gun or a sword(replace "sword" with any melee weapon, "gun" is universal as it pertains to firearms)handle growing godlike powers? A man using barehands and feet, or utilizing any element, I'd understand(for the bare-handed godlikes, see the Dragonball saga), but if you are simply a man(or woman)with a gun or sword(however technologically advanced), how would that work? |
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That is true, I had forgotten about she had said next - just reading the forum I thought "Im pretty sure she didn't say that there were no mutants". It would be interesting to find out what this "semantic" (as she puts it) difference is between current mutants and psionics but doubt we will. |
Originally Posted by ChaosExMachina
If you read more of that she's suggesting that regular mutants were 1938 and psionics were before, and she, explicitly, is a psionic, not a mutant.
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Personally I like the base idea behind the arc, that there is central source of all power in the universe, but agree with you Machina that the arc itself is very poorly written to take into account the diversity of the players backgrounds.
Some of my science toons aren't results of cruel experiments and some of my naturals aren't just well trained humans.
If the devs rewrote the arc to allow branching dialogue choices such as:
* So [player] you're a science origin toon, how did you get your powers:
a) I volunteered to be part of an experiment that gave them to me
b) I decided to give them to myself
c) Some cruel evil misfit used me as a lab rat
d) It was just a complete accident
or
* So [player] you're a magic origin toon, how did you get your powers:
a) Im a trained sorcerer/sorcereress
b) I found a magic artifact that gave me power
c) They were magically granted to me
c) Im an inherent magical being
I think it would be better and remove the referrence to power proliferation because, as you say, its a bit stupid.
Thinking about it I would have written the arc like this:
a) You find each of the chatty NPCs in a short mission (either rescue/assist them) and have the chat with branching dialogue options
b) You find out Dr Brainstorm who has been looking into the origin of origins (but hadn't actually caused power proliferation) has been kidnapped and you have to rescue him. At most maybe you can give him a line like:
"Ever wonder why some super people have differet origins but can have similar powers? Well I believe this is because of etc etc etc"
c) You then have to go break up some multi faction attack (with a group representing each origin) who are looking for the same artifacts as the CoT were in the original arc
I think this would be good to not conflict (as much) with people's origin stories and actually have a fun(ish) arc to play on multiple toons
Anyway this all just opinion so feel free to disagree
Member of GGRRR, a SG on Defiant - check out our website - GGRRR
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
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There was this PC game that was Lord of the Rings meet the Industrial age. Its argument was that magic bent the laws of nature and physics to achieve its goals, whereas science used the laws. Due to this, there was strife between magicals and technologists. |
Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
I prefer "Any Sufficiently Analyzed Magic is Indistinguishable from SCIENCE!"
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Magicians could not use guns because their magical field could alter the properties of gunpowder or the gears and springs and make the weapon blow up. Technologist could not wield magical items because they could not fathom or understand how the laws could be altered.
You could build your character anywhere you liked, but if you made him a very powerful wizard, they wouldn't let you take the train, as you'd make it explode. If you magically inclined, they'd make you sit way in the back.
I always liked this definition.
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I don't see how gaining some magic mojo would change how my cyborg sticks an energy claw in someone's spleen. |
Originally Posted by Ironik
Before... could your cyborg do what he does because of Technology? Yes. After... can your cyborg do what he does because of Technology? No. He does it because of magic. Ergo, his Origin has changed. He has changed on a fundamental level. |
It's very simple: He extends an arm with an energy claw on the end of it in a violent motion. How exactly does the addition of magic change how that happens? Does teh technology simply stop working? Does he become paralayzed? How does that magic have anything to do with his ability to stab someone?
Sure, he might be able to do other stuff now that he has some magic, but he was not changed into a magical being because of it. If I could stab someone via technology before, I can still stab them via technology after. Whether there is magic or not, my original abilities remain the same.
By your logic, if I gained magic and then lost it, my technology would cease to function. I disagree on a massive level with that. Adding magic doesn't change what you could do without it. It simply adds new things.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
Not to offend Sister Psyche fans, but I don't consider her pet theory to have much in the way of proof (other than because she said so).
Issue 23: All your base are belong to us?
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Yeah I played that game and liked it a lot. The conflict between magic and technology was well thought out and made sense within the story of the game. In general I can support either option as long as it makes sense in context, I tend to prefer the "magic is simply an advanced science" explanation in more science inclined settings and "magic and science are opposed forces" in more fantastic settings.
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Originally Posted by Tormentoso
There was this PC game that was Lord of the Rings meet the Industrial age. Its argument was that magic bent the laws of nature and physics to achieve its goals, whereas science used the laws. Due to this, there was strife between magicals and technologists.
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You kind of missed my point.
Incarnate abilities don't change your initial abilities. Without them, you are still just as super as you were before. They simply give you new abilities.
If my cyborg Claws/Regen scrapper gets a shot of magic, he is still technology origin, because if you take that magic away he will remain a cyborg. He does not suddenly become a magic creature just because he got some extra powers from another source.
Your statement I quoted was implying that if someone uses magic, or gains something from magic, it irrevocably changes the origin of the powers they had before. I was pointing out the fallacy of that statement, but doing it in a tongue in cheek way.
See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately.