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Originally Posted by LISAR
If that is what you wish your religion to be like, so be it.
Get ordained on the internet and start a church. But I think we've crossed the moderator line on this with that picture...and any response to it. We'll see on Monday I suppose. |
It's just a picture of a bloke who needs a shave stood in front of a yellow moon.
Why get so stressed?
Thelonious Monk
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Only one of those guys is Natural origin...
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Originally Posted by Ironik
Every week on Supernatural Sam and Dean take on all manner of magical baddies, and all they have is guns, guts and a kickin' Chevy.
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not mention there's quite a few times of them using MAGIC (or at least a magical ritual) to defeat their foe.
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Originally Posted by NarfMann
Only one of those guys is Natural origin...
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
City of Heroes is a game about freedom of expression and variety of experiences far more so than it is about representing any one theme, topic or genre.
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That's the equivalent of calling every character that went through Dean McArthur's arc with the Ajax fight (where you had to use technology to weaken him enough to defeat him) Science or Technology just because they went through that arc.
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Originally Posted by AzureSkyCiel
not mention there's quite a few times of them using MAGIC (or at least a magical ritual) to defeat their foe.
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that would be true, but with ironik, his rules are this
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Originally Posted by BenRGamer
That's the equivalent of calling every character that went through Dean McArthur's arc with the Ajax fight (where you had to use technology to weaken him enough to defeat him) Science or Technology just because they went through that arc.
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Originally Posted by Ironik
A regular guy getting a shot of magic? He becomes magic, period. |
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I actually said the opposite, but go ahead and think what you want. Just don't oversimplify my complex explanation.|
Originally Posted by rian_frostdrake
that would be true, but with ironik, his rules are this so any small use of magic (and presumably technology that enhances his crime fighting or any form of scientific enhancement) changes his origin and is some kind of major crime against his character.
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To clarify: using a gun doesn't make you Tech. Wearing powered armor does. Using a mojo hand doesn't make you Magic, but increasing your abilities via the Well of Furies does.
NarfMann makes a very good point about the Natural/Magic aspect of Sam and Dean which underscores my larger argument. They both started out as Natural Scrappers, but then Sam got hopped up on demon blood and thus became Magic-based. In fact, now that I think on it, Sam may have been Magic-based from the start since he and others like him were chosen by the yellow-eyed demon to do his dirty work on Earth. Either way, Sam is definitely Magic-based in the current season, despite the fact that he only uses Natural means to accomplish his goals, whereas in Season 4 he was using innate magical abilities all the time.
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| dont expect canon to accommodate all the whacked out origins we can possibly come up with. we were never promised that, and we sure as heck aint going to get it. |
I'm cool like that.
The Alt Alphabet ~ OPC: Other People's Characters ~ Terrific Screenshots of Cool ~ Superhero Fiction
Take a look at it this way, Ironik, your character is Natural, that means they're just that good, Well of the Furies or not.
While the Well of the Furies may make them better, they'd still be super without it, and that's why their origin doesn't change.
I haven't gone through the whole topic but here's my thoughts on the matter. A regular weapon user could still technically have incarnate abilities. From what I understand from Ramiel's arc, the well of furies is a somewhat enigmatic entity that channels it's energy to the chosen person. The form that it takes can be different from person to person. For example, an assault rifle can be totally normal until held in the hand of a person chosen by the well of the furies and it suddenly becomes immensely powerful beyond any normal physical capability. The well channels your incarnate abilities through your body and into the weapon.
As far as incarnates go and roleplaying natural characters, I think people are just going to have to accept that they are going to be strengthened by a super natural force. If they don't like it then they don't have to participate in the incarnate content.
i was annoyed? care to quote that?
only thing i'm annoyed with is that marcian didnt go along and set me up for the "with friends like your teammates, who needs enemas" joke. i'm crushed about that.
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That's what I said.|
Originally Posted by BenRGamer
Take a look at it this way, Ironik, your character is Natural, that means they're just that good, Well of the Furies or not.
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| While the Well of the Furies may make them better, they'd still be super without it, and that's why their origin doesn't change. |
The easiest way to solve this issue is for the Devs to add a word or two to each of the Origin of Power and Incarnate arcs. When we're told that "no mutants existed before 1939" that's annoying, but it could be readily fixed by saying, "the number of mutants radically increased after 1939." That allows for both the game lore *and* players to have characters who don't fit. Simple solution.
The Alt Alphabet ~ OPC: Other People's Characters ~ Terrific Screenshots of Cool ~ Superhero Fiction
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The Carnies would disagree with them about that whole "no mutants before 1939" bit, actually.|
Originally Posted by Ironik
That's what I said.
Naw, that doesn't work for me. Specifically, it doesn't work for some of my characters. Right now I'm playing my Native American mutant, Liberty Ace. His backstory is completely compatible with the game lore, so he's not going to have any problem with the Incarnate stuff. Some of my other characters, though aren't compatible. The easiest way to solve this issue is for the Devs to add a word or two to each of the Origin of Power and Incarnate arcs. When we're told that "no mutants existed before 1939" that's annoying, but it could be readily fixed by saying, "the number of mutants radically increased after 1939." That allows for both the game lore *and* players to have characters who don't fit. Simple solution. |
As for how the well can empower a Natural type without giving them magic? How about if the contact with the well, for just a moment, opens their mind to every detail of every fight they've ever been in? For that one, short moment, they see it all with perfect clarity. Every move, every mistake, every choice that they could have made better; it's all there. And while that moment of clarity fades, the effects linger. Now they see past the old limits of their skill. They can line up that sniper shot or block the swing of a sword with a zen focus that most people would work their whole lives to master. They are not supernatural, but they are uncanny in what they can do.
"I do so love taking a nice, well thought out character and putting them through hell. It's like tossing a Faberge Egg onto the stage during a Gallagher concert." - me
@Palador / @Rabid Unicorn
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Exactly, hell, in a way, maybe you could say that Incarnate for a natural origin toon is achieving a level of Zen Buddhist enlightenment, tearing down the distinctions between the self and the world around them, allowing them to act and react freely to everything with perfect clarity.
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Originally Posted by Rabid_Metroid
As for how the well can empower a Natural type without giving them magic? How about if the contact with the well, for just a moment, opens their mind to every detail of every fight they've ever been in? For that one, short moment, they see it all with perfect clarity. Every move, every mistake, every choice that they could have made better; it's all there. And while that moment of clarity fades, the effects linger. Now they see past the old limits of their skill. They can line up that sniper shot or block the swing of a sword with a zen focus that most people would work their whole lives to master. They are not supernatural, but they are uncanny in what they can do.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
City of Heroes is a game about freedom of expression and variety of experiences far more so than it is about representing any one theme, topic or genre.
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I always pictured that as a need for Sister Psyche to feel 'special'...especially with her 'ooh psychic mutants might be their own origin' schtick. She is an unreliable narrator at best and I do wish they added I dialogue option to tell her that she is wrong. |
Originally Posted by Ironik
The easiest way to solve this issue is for the Devs to add a word or two to each of the Origin of Power and Incarnate arcs. When we're told that "no mutants existed before 1939" that's annoying, but it could be readily fixed by saying, "the number of mutants radically increased after 1939." That allows for both the game lore *and* players to have characters who don't fit. Simple solution.
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Ingame lore contradicts her 'no mutants' line in several points, Giovanna Scaldi's backstory includes two mutants who predate that year by quite a long margin (the Italian Rennasiance) both Giovanna Scaldi and Brother Ablelard Vernoux are said to be mutants.
Lady Grey is a mutant and she is pretty damn old apparently, a lot older than she looks (equal in age to Nemesis which suggests she might be pulling a Dorian Grey but without the magical painting).
The whole 'opening of the well created an age of superheroes' thing can often be ignored as shown above, Heroes did crop up while the well was closed, just in a lot smaller numbers, the well only enabled a mass outpouring of heroes in the same vein as the classical era of heroic mythology (Greek/Roman) where there were heroes in abundance.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_mAH_...eature=related|
Originally Posted by Rabid_Metroid
As for how the well can empower a Natural type without giving them magic? How about if the contact with the well, for just a moment, opens their mind to every detail of every fight they've ever been in? For that one, short moment, they see it all with perfect clarity. Every move, every mistake, every choice that they could have made better; it's all there. And while that moment of clarity fades, the effects linger. Now they see past the old limits of their skill. They can line up that sniper shot or block the swing of a sword with a zen focus that most people would work their whole lives to master. They are not supernatural, but they are uncanny in what they can do.
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Ultimate mastery of one's self, skills, abilities, strengths AND weaknesses, and harmonious union with self and weaponry, would make one a foe comperable to the most powerful. Just don't get delusions of godhood, EVERYONE has a critical weakness(even if to them, it's a strength).
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Sounds good to me. I'll cheerfully use that very idea for one of my characters. However, you guys do realize that's a non-canon rationalization of how the Well works? It's been made pretty clear that it's a magical font of superpowers.
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Originally Posted by AzureSkyCiel
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The Alt Alphabet ~ OPC: Other People's Characters ~ Terrific Screenshots of Cool ~ Superhero Fiction
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Or if it's that much of a bother, there's two other options...|
Originally Posted by Ironik
That's what I said.
Naw, that doesn't work for me. Specifically, it doesn't work for some of my characters. Right now I'm playing my Native American mutant, Liberty Ace. His backstory is completely compatible with the game lore, so he's not going to have any problem with the Incarnate stuff. Some of my other characters, though aren't compatible. The easiest way to solve this issue is for the Devs to add a word or two to each of the Origin of Power and Incarnate arcs. When we're told that "no mutants existed before 1939" that's annoying, but it could be readily fixed by saying, "the number of mutants radically increased after 1939." That allows for both the game lore *and* players to have characters who don't fit. Simple solution. |
1) Change your toon not to be so old
2) Change your toon to be way older! The cannon also says that the well of furies was open before, so mutant origins likely exsisted the last time it was open before Statesman and Recluse.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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Well, then I guess you should be deleting all of your "Natural origin, regular guy" characters when they get defeated. |
Originally Posted by Ironik
That doesn't work for me. That will never work for me.
A regular guy getting a shot of magic? He becomes magic, period. |
Because, by your own logic: A regular guy using reverse-engineered alien technology to teleport himself to the hospital? He becomes tech, period.
Hey, don't look at me, you made the rules.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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Yeah, it's crazy how some people act like the game lore is some rock hard defined thing. Most of it is self-contradictory and it's loaded with retcons.
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Originally Posted by Rabid_Metroid
The Carnies would disagree with them about that whole "no mutants before 1939" bit, actually.
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A game is not supposed to be some kind of... place where people enjoy themselves!
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Any sufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from technology.|
Originally Posted by Ironik
Sounds good to me. I'll cheerfully use that very idea for one of my characters. However, you guys do realize that's a non-canon rationalization of how the Well works? It's been made pretty clear that it's a magical font of superpowers.
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Or was it the other way around?
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Random thought:
Is a large group of healthy and active, but otherwise ordinary, modern humans over age 60 science or natural origin? By the standards of a bit over two centuries ago they'd obviously be the product of some sort of unnatural process just by appearance alone.
Dr. Todt's theme.
i make stuff...
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I prefer "Any Sufficiently Analyzed Magic is Indistinguishable from SCIENCE!"|
Originally Posted by Schismatrix
Any sufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from technology.
Or was it the other way around? |
Several of my characters take the view that Magic is just a simple way of saying "we don't understand the Physics".
Personally I'm going to take this interpretation and cheerfully run with it as far as incarnates go. The Well of Furies has granted them new abilities, it's magic because they don't really understand how they got the abilities but the abilities themselves might be magic, or they might not.
I also have a fondness for having situations where the character's explanation for a power is not necessarily true. As an example my Tech origin Inv/Axe Tanker uses a suit of power armor. If I ever get her to 50 and incarnate her (she's hovering between 4th and 5th on my list) the in-character explanation for her increased power is that she has been meditating and communing with the spirits of her ancestors and by doing so has established a bond which allows them to lend her some of their power when she needs help (this is also her explanation for certain other non-incarnate abilities). Is this actually what's happening? Maybe, it's certainly possible within the lore of the CoX universe, but it's equally possible she's a little bit delusional and has instead activated a latent mutation, or is unconsciously using magic.
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Whatever you do, take stuff out of the larger context. Using a tool doesn't change your origin, bonding with the tool does. Critical mass, crossing a line, going over the edge, hitting the tipping point and et cetera. know wut i mean, vern?
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Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
Well, then I guess you should be deleting all of your "Natural origin, regular guy" characters when they get defeated.
Because, by your own logic: A regular guy using reverse-engineered alien technology to teleport himself to the hospital? He becomes tech, period. Hey, don't look at me, you made the rules. |
The Alt Alphabet ~ OPC: Other People's Characters ~ Terrific Screenshots of Cool ~ Superhero Fiction
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If they're 60 and healthy because of medicinal intervention -- heart or kidney transplant, diabetes treatment, etc. -- then Science. My family would be Natural, because they are mostly ridiculously long-lived.|
Originally Posted by Schismatrix
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Random thought: Is a large group of healthy and active, but otherwise ordinary, modern humans over age 60 science or natural origin? By the standards of a bit over two centuries ago they'd obviously be the product of some sort of unnatural process just by appearance alone. |
It's been pretty much disproven that the whole "average life expectancy was 35 years old" thing was an error of statistics. Take out childhood deaths and war and the average life expectancy 200 years ago was roughly the same as it is today. Even the Bible has the years of a man's life as "threescore and ten." (For those unfamiliar with old-timey counting, a score is 20 years, so that's 20+20+20+10... 70 years old, in other words.)
The Alt Alphabet ~ OPC: Other People's Characters ~ Terrific Screenshots of Cool ~ Superhero Fiction
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That's not really true. The average life expectancy for those who reached adulthood was somewhere in the upper 60's-lower 70's. (Compared to a bit more than 80 today) That's a difference in ten years of *average* life-expectancy (probably more, since infant mortality is counted in the modern figure but not the pre-modern ones)
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Originally Posted by Ironik
If they're 60 and healthy because of medicinal intervention -- heart or kidney transplant, diabetes treatment, etc. -- then Science. My family would be Natural, because they are mostly ridiculously long-lived.
It's been pretty much disproven that the whole "average life expectancy was 35 years old" thing was an error of statistics. Take out childhood deaths and war and the average life expectancy 200 years ago was roughly the same as it is today. Even the Bible has the years of a man's life as "threescore and ten." (For those unfamiliar with old-timey counting, a score is 20 years, so that's 20+20+20+10... 70 years old, in other words.) |
"Men strunt �r strunt och snus �r snus
om ock i gyllne dosor.
Och rosor i ett sprucket krus
�r st�ndigt alltid rosor."
ResidentBaka is gonna be mad.