Don't go Free to Play(F2P), COH
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33253,
Posted on: 2010-10-27 07:26 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
Those changes are what I hate about games changing to an F2P model. I've yet to see one where gameplay itself wasn't affected negatively.
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The SOE experiment was a complete disaster for many of the same reasons the Infogrames experiment will be a complete disaster, such as locking subscribers looking to go F2P out of their characters and existing accounts, and the entire F2P account appearently being used as a promo for a subscriber account. However, MMO-Shooters uses a skill based system, players on the F2P accounts were just as effective as players with Subscribed accounts. The actual gameplay itself was not affected by the state of a players Subscribed or F2P account.
other F2P model changes appears to be a success, largely because the existing paid-for-options can only indirectly influence the tide of a battle. E.G. a Player might have a full loadout of purple weapons and devices rather than a mixed loadout of commons, greens, and blues. A player purchasing the add-on options might also be able to field a wider variety of avatars, with better average equipment across each avatar, rather than simply fielding a limited number of avatars or focusing on one avatar alone. As Hi-Rez decided to drop the subscription model in it's entirety, which is probably the way to go for games making the switch, the actual combat and gameplay was largely unaffected. Hi-Rez's F2P accounts are not used as advertising gimmicks for a subscriber account.
That goes into my issue with Turbine's F2P model. The F2P system, while fairly competent, acts like more of a promo of the subscriber base. I would be hard-pressed to say that the F2P elements have affected Turbine's game in an entirely positive manner. Turbine's financial advantage is that there is a large number of players who want a F2P MMO-RPG.
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Ditto. I hadn't heard about those gating techniques. It sounds like a tech limitation they put in place to minimize the $$ burden of the Freebies by mitigating sever load and traffic info. Unfortunate. I was interested in checking out that one, but really couldn't afford enough online time to justify another sub. |
Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
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Note that while that issue hit ONE of the MMO's we're talking about, the technique doesn't seem prevalent at one other fantasy MMO's Freebie solution. From what was described, it seems to be Very much a problem with hacking some economy into an existing system.
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G_G I think you are assuming that you would automatically get everything that has already been added to the game if it went F2P. That may not be the case.|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
I think Free-to-Play would work well with CoH - there's so much content here that's built over the past 6 years, plus there's a whole new endgame system about to be added.
But for a game that's, say, just only one year old with limited content and only one leveling path, I'm not sure how that'd work. |
In that hairy footed fantasy game free players have to buy that extra content. The same goes for that competing hero game. They changed "free issues" to "Adventure Packs" and will be charging for them.
The same decisions could be implemented here. All the content that was added in our free issues and paid expansions could be categorized as "Adventure Packs" and free players would have to buy them. Same goes for features like the Arena, the AE, the Market, IO's/Crafting, Bases, PvP. Just imagine having to pay real money for inspirations, because they do that those F2P games with their versions of inspirations.
Those other F2P games even sell individual costume pieces, and they sell them per character not per account.
The best we can hope for is that if they made the switch that they'd grandfather in everything previously existing accounts aquired.
My suspicion is this Forbin:
If NCSoft was to contemplate a Free to Play model for CoH, it would become the only model. Something to keep in mind is that while NCSoft has a reputation for trying everything at least once, and have backed projects that from a long-term viewpoint, really didn't make any sense what-so-ever (I'm looking at NetDevil's NCSoft published game here). Over the years NCSoft has tried quite a few different business models, including the tiered access model proposed by Infogrames, and used by Turbine in their MMO-RPG.
Thing is, NCSoft already has empirical proof that a large scale MMORPG driven by paid-expansion packs can work. ArenaNet is already on their sequel title. Our game, in particular, CoH, has also proven that add-on Booster Packs can supplement subscription payments.
My suspicion is that if NCSoft were to consider a F2P model for CoH, they would just drop the subscription rates entirely. It is my opinion that the business model from that point would be based largely on booster-packs and regular expansions.
I think before NCSoft makes any kind of move on subscriptions, they'll wait for the post-Christmas sales results to filter in, and wait for SOE's upcoming Super-Hero game to actually have a few months on the market so they can accurately guage what the competition is doing in comparison to how their own title is doing.
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But that's what I meant - we'd continue playing our subs and the game would be exactly the same, and the people who wanted to play for free would have an expereince similar to an extended trial account - and because there's so much content here, they'd be tempted to sub to access all of it.|
Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
G_G I think you are assuming that you would automatically get everything that has already been added to the game if it went F2P. That may not be the case.
In that hairy footed fantasy game free players have to buy that extra content. The same goes for that competing hero game. They changed "free issues" to "Adventure Packs" and will be charging for them. The same decisions could be implemented here. All the content that was added in our free issues and paid expansions could be categorized as "Adventure Packs" and free players would have to buy them. Same goes for features like the Arena, the AE, the Market, IO's/Crafting, Bases, PvP. Just imagine having to pay real money for inspirations, because they do that those F2P games with their versions of inspirations. Those other F2P games even sell individual costume pieces, and they sell them per character not per account. The best we can hope for is that if they made the switch that they'd grandfather in everything previously existing accounts aquired. |
Ther's a similar sort of thing going on already with the Incarnate endgame system - you have to pay extra to use it.
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
I wouldn't mind if they did a F2P version where you can be a Silver or Gold member. I'd certainly pay for Gold member if a similar business model was used. Make it so Vet rewards don't accrue, certain zones are locked out, future powersets perhaps, Epic ATs maybe. Lots of possible ideas and no, not all of the above are great ones but they're just some examples.
I need to comment on any doomsayers about F2P means a game is about to die. It certainly CAN mean that but a particular fantasy game has more than doubled their income each month due to their F2P and MTX options. More power to them. It's all about how it's packaged and delivered - especially in the North American market.
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
I think Free-to-Play would work well with CoH - there's so much content here that's built over the past 6 years, plus there's a whole new endgame system about to be added.
But for a game that's, say, just only one year old with limited content and only one leveling path, I'm not sure how that'd work. |
Let's see here...
Outside of buying GR to Fully access the end-game content, let's just say for argument's sake if City went F2P here's what a F2P player might get:
- Access to all Zones as regular subscribed players (Content is another thing entirely)
- 4-6 Character slots, with an option to purchase to a max of 12-18 per server
- 2-3 Costume slots per Character, with the option to purchase to the max limit of 5 per Character (got to give the Costume Salvage one for free...)
- a maximum of 8-10 Market slots, with the option to increase to the per Character max
- No direct access to AE system (Just like Trial accounts), but access can be purchased and then treated normally
- A INF cap limit of, being generous, 250 Million, with multiple purchasing options to increase the cap to the 2 Billion max
As I mentioned upthread, I think the development effort to even think of going to a F2P system is not worth the hassle to sort out all of above and more. It's just not worth it, IMHO.
If you think that F2P City players could enjoy something along like what I mentioned, then ok, we'll see. I just don't believe it would be a good thing.
Thank you for the time...
@Travlr (Main) / @Tymers Realm (Test) 
As long as I have the option to pay the sub and have everything I get now, I would be fine if they used a F2P model on top of the paid sub. In fact, I wish they would bring back Auto Assault under a package deal. My wife and I agree if they did that, we would subscribe to the package deal and not let it lapse.
My problem when you combine the two is that 'free' content ceases to exist. It all becomes mini packs for free, and micro-transactions.
As for micro-transactions, what I view as a micro-transaction, and RMT, is very different that some people I think.
Our booster packs could be called micro-transactions, but I view them as mini-expansions. The difference being the content. The price is about right. Anything that costs more than the subscription IS NOT a micro-transaction. Looking at some of the other publishers, they need to get it through their head that $25 for a mount for 1 character per account is not micro, and it is not reasonable. THat, and the sheeple need to stop buying them.
Costume pieces for under $5 per account, or sets for under $5 per character is reasonable. To me that's micro.
RMT comes into being when they are asking me to pay exorbitant amounts for their fake cash to buy their goods from the store. Combined with the lack of micro in the micra-transaction, I get peeved quickly and avoid them. A costume set costs 750 of their cash. The exchange rate in real money is $6 for 500 "their-bucks" or $10 for 1000 "theirbucks", and there is not way to get change. Nor is there anything for 250 "theirbucks". That is a real money transaction, and with it, they conned me out of the extra money to get the set. I do not like it, I see it for what it is, and I wish other players did as well.
What they sell in content of their store matters to me, but I will have to come back to that later.
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I think you misunderstood what he meant. These "Adventure Packs" might well start being SOLD to subscribers, rather than coming out for "free" as it does for us now. As subscribers, we'd likely just get more character slots, first choice of names, customer support and so on, but NEW content will be sold for money. That's the big worry.|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
But that's what I meant - we'd continue playing our subs and the game would be exactly the same, and the people who wanted to play for free would have an expereince similar to an extended trial account - and because there's so much content here, they'd be tempted to sub to access all of it.
Ther's a similar sort of thing going on already with the Incarnate endgame system - you have to pay extra to use it. |
After all, plenty of people worry even now that new costumes have never really been a big part of our subscription fees, and have instead come mostly in the form of Booster packs. The Boosters themselves aren't too bad now, because they're rare and because they're not considered an essential part of the experience. A F2P model would not really allow for things you don't want to buy, because they want you to want to buy them.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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On top of a subscription fee?
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
I'd be totally ok with paying for Issues.
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Agua Man lvl 48 Water/Electric Blaster
"To die hating NCSoft for shutting down City of Heroes, that was Freedom."
There are many factors that make me a dedicated CoX subscriber: $15/mo for entertainment is cheap compared to other various entertainment outlets. I would sooner give up cable TV than CoX. Second, currently the new issues are free every 3 months except for City of Villains and Going Rogue, which I got for a bargain. The community and the folks who keep the game running are superior in many ways. This game never became Ultimate Online, may it rest in pieces.
We have discount packages for 3 mo.s, 6 mo.s, 12 mo.s as I am unaware of any updates to those. I would gladly pay for a lifetime subscription that was equivalent to 15-18 mo.s of full-rate charges. The charging for booster packs doesn't bother me. I have purchased some, not all. I trust to a relative high degree that if there were F2P accounts which did have to pay for new issues, had certain limitations on their characters, costumes, customization, AE play... that it would have minimal effect on the current subscriber community. Do you think NCSoft wants to drive off established paying customers? I don't mind paying for extra character slots on servers; I know that space, maintenance, and time involved in the transaction cost our hosts something.
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HelinCarnate:OMG it is so terrible. I have the option to take 3 more powers but no additional slots. Boo F'ing hoo.
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Sure - a sub to access all the game features, plus paid-for content updates.
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Originally Posted by Mental_Giant
On top of a subscription fee?
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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Before thing get too out of hand, let's get one thing here clear:|
Originally Posted by Mental_Giant
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If CoX went F2P, there would still be a subscription option available for those who want it just like the game alluded to in the OP. For those who subscribe, there would be no Content or access changes and CoX would play, for the most part, just like normal.
Now then, one last thing to include to my earlier post...
Let's just say some content that is currently in the game gets put into a side-quest category. This would be content that doesn't have a direct baring on a zone's story or pertain to the Character's origin.
So let's say that a F2P player would have to pay (per character, of course) to run the Doppleganger Contacts in Talos or Sharkshead or the Arcs in the Midnighters Club. Same could be said for the normal contacts you might come across. If you only get contacts associated with your Character's Origin, you run the risk of not going through some interesting content. If you pay a fee, per character, then you'd open up the contacts for a different origin path.
Now as too what was quoted above...
What would define a Issue? Issue releases are more than just mission content. They are Systems and costumes as well. I could not see being able to pay Issue content on top of paying a subscription fee. If there was new mission contacts and the like, those might have to be bundled as Micro-Transaction stuff.
Thank you for the time...
@Travlr (Main) / @Tymers Realm (Test)
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That's a huge assumption that is not reflected in the actual experience of those who've played through a subscription-to-F2P conversion. "For the most part" is very broad.
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Originally Posted by Tymers_Realm
Before thing get too out of hand, let's get one thing here clear:
If CoX went F2P, there would still be a subscription option available for those who want it just like the game alluded to in the OP. For those who subscribe, there would be no Content or access changes and CoX would play, for the most part, just like normal. |
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so is saying it is "not reflected in the actual experiences..." part. Much more broad.|
Originally Posted by Feycat
That's a huge assumption that is not reflected in the actual experience of those who've played through a subscription-to-F2P conversion. "For the most part" is very broad.
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Do they HAVE TO offer a subscription? Of course not, but offering a sub plan that meets the user expectations for Pre-F2P access to content, levels, and resources is consistent with what we see in all the other recent migrations. We DO have one account of technical changes that impact large-group activities very badly in one MMO, but we have another game by that same vendor without those same restrictions and we have another fantasy game that didn't require such hurdles at all, so there's nothing to suggest that it would apply anywhere but that one instance.
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Exactly. For example. If Paragon used one of the current F2P models then things would happen like:|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
I think you misunderstood what he meant. These "Adventure Packs" might well start being SOLD to subscribers, rather than coming out for "free" as it does for us now. As subscribers, we'd likely just get more character slots, first choice of names, customer support and so on, but NEW content will be sold for money. That's the big worry.
After all, plenty of people worry even now that new costumes have never really been a big part of our subscription fees, and have instead come mostly in the form of Booster packs. The Boosters themselves aren't too bad now, because they're rare and because they're not considered an essential part of the experience. A F2P model would not really allow for things you don't want to buy, because they want you to want to buy them. |
The paying players have to pay to get a gold (influence) cap removed from their accounts.
They have to pay to unlock archetypes.
They have to pay to have character storage limits removed.
They have to pay to get access to additional zones.
They have to pay for the ability to form a guild (Super Group)
They even have to pay for customer service. The free accounts have to fend for themselves.
In the other F2P games if you want to invite a friend to one of the adventures you own you have to pay for a guest pass which lets them team up with you for 90 to 180 minutes.
and in their airships (bases) you don't buy base amenities, you rent them. What would that mean in our game? It means if rent isn't paid for each item it goes away and you can't use it until you rent a new one.
Those are just a few examples of the things subscribers have to pay for that they used to get for free in those games.
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Agreed, there is a lot of content that I will never see or play in City.
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Originally Posted by Feycat
You use the word content, but I think you're really meaning levels, no matter what you say downthread. There is a LOT of content in this game. I haven't even seen it all and I've been playing for 6 years. Just because there is a lot of repetitive content in the game doesn't mean it all is, or that there aren't interesting storylines and environments to explore. I do not believe that one can blow through ALL the CONTENT in this game in 6 weeks, unless one is playing upward of 8 hour a day. |
I don't suffer from altitis, I enjoy every minute of it.
Thank you Devs & Community people for a great game.
So sad to be ending ):
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That's red side for me |
Originally Posted by tanstaafl
Agreed, there is a lot of content that I will never see or play in City.
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
The only F2P model I ever liked was one created for a game based on a revamp of a game that's been around for several decades...
Everything already in the game at the time of crossover was set for subscribers to have full access to except for a single class and a race that you could either buy access to or earn access to via in-game effort.
The releases since that day and all the events since have been part of the subscription fee and had at least 1 new mission-chain for F2P players to have the option of purchasing, and usually had at least one mission chain which is completely F2P for everyone.
Every month subscribers to that game get "Free" store-money to spend on little things (loot increasing items or basic equipment, cosmetic gear, passes to bring F2P friends on P2P mission chains, extra ammo, etc) or save up as they like. Many have just stayed subscribed long enough to buy up most of the content packs so they can go free to play without losing anything at all.
It's a fairly good system, all things considered. The only caveat I have for it is that one class they put a price tag on, even for P2P players. But it seems like they learned from their mistake.
All in all, however, such systems seem to only increase the profitability of the games which employ them. It gives players the chance to see some of the content and how the game works. It's just enough to get them hooked on it.
-Rachel-
F2P with micro transactions is the way to go!
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Originally Posted by Zombie Man
F2P with micro transactions is the way to go!
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More MMOs are either launching with, or adapting to the F2P model in 2010 than ever before.
the MMO titles that adopted FTP within the past year experienced solid population gains.
Though, personally I doubt anything is going help the principle OP is referring to. Somethings start out bad in Alpha and never improve.
Hmm...
Actually I believe NCsoft may be kind of wary about approaching the F2P with 'optional extras' thing.
Why?
The two games that NCsoft have done previous that used the traditional form of F2P before were shut down recently because they just weren't raking in the money, so they've already tried it (right down to the NCsoft Coins) and it failed miserably. I imagine that would leave them a little dubious of trying it with one of their more successful (in the west) MMOs.
I will say this though, I think the current Booster Packs (not Super Boosters) are probably a trial run to see if the is a market to switch to the traditional F2P model and that the game can support itself by releasing one of those every month with less content than the Super Boosters.
The Party Pack, I imagine, probably didn't do too well (out of about 20 people, I know of 2 that bought it, compared to say the Super booster packs, which every one of them bought) but the Origins Pack looks like they realised most people couldn't give a fig about emotes BUT they do care about costumes.
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The curse of Namesless Enemy is still upon it |
Originally Posted by Acemace
Though, personally I doubt anything is going help the principle OP is referring to. Somethings start out bad in Alpha and never improve.
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
The reason I posted this was because, no matter what information is presented to people (regarding this thread and topic), people will jump to conclusions before there is any proof and start rumors that others see as gold. The reason I even noticed this thread was because of conversation in a global channel of people talking that "coh is going free-2-play because the competition is.)
Sure, it's people getting information from other players but it eventually snowballs into "truth."
Just because we see something, and we want to/not believe it, it doesn't make it any more true/false. That's what I was getting at.
The night that the news leaked, Babs DID have his status set to Senior Animator at Cryptic Studios as a description, but didn't have a job history with it. Knowing how that site works, it looked like he updated his Paragon data, but never bothered with the general description field.
A few hours afterward, it leaked onto the boards. Babs must've noticed, because it changed... and then later again changed to include things like, "astronaut, nascar racer, international spy."
I took it as his way of acknowledging the fans here & saying bye & it made me admire him all the more for that little gesture...
Good to see its back, and I want to say Gratz to Mr. Bruce. I knew he was too good to escape the evil tendrils of employers for long.