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Yeah, I think you are right. To be truthful, this thread is sooo long, and the writing is perhaps not optimal. I find myself losing cohesion if people do not reiterate their position clearly and make their statements based upon that. My own failing. Again, my own prefence would prob be SS/FA, but I've decided not to roll one, cause it might bore me. But, the day is long, by 5:30 I might change my mind. But seriously, to wait to 32 for it to startt to perform, ich, its not even the weekend, no time to level the beast.|
Originally Posted by Fiery-Enforcer
That's not what I'm reading at all. He's saying to compare Claws vs. his SS Brute and see if you can beat any of the numbers he posted.
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K, tell me why I am wrong. We have done a lot of talking about Fiery Aura being king of AoE for secondaries. I know we are not in agreement, completely. But still, i think we can all say it is a decent choice if you are going for a top AoE Brute. So, say we are choosing a Fiery aura toon, why not Fire Melee? the build up power for FA would effect all fire attacks for 30s. This could be made to be at least 50% of the time with little investment, and near perma with serious care. The PBAoE for Fire Melee is a 10ft circle. The only thing I do not like about it is the sword animation. Ich, I mean really. Disney Sinbad anyone?
Fiery Embrace no longer works that way, it use to for 30s give an 80% damage buff to all fire attacks and for the first 10s, all attacks. Now the duration has been reduced to 20s and it adds bonus fire damage to all attacks for the full duration. It's like a damage proc that goes off 100% of the time, and it's affected by damage buffs.
Edit: Ok I finished doing some runs in a regular AE mission on the demon farm map with Council Empire.
The settings I used were +3/x8 no bosses. I have since respec'd into Pyre mastery on my Claws/Dark to get some more accurate results. With the Claws/Dark, I was making about 460k inf/minute, using FU/Spin/Eviscerate/Fireball/Death Shroud. With the SS/Fire I was making about 500k inf/minute using Rage/Foot Stomp/Fireball/Blazing Aura.
[U][URL="http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=251594"][/URL][/U]
Good stuff, Fiery-Enforcer. I doubt that the damage difference between death shroud and blazing aura is enough to make up that 40k inf/min difference. Were you using fiery embrace on your SS/Fire? If so, that would make a considerable difference.
Be well, people of CoH.
Okay I went back to the ambush farm to test out the Claws/Dark with Fireball, this time without using inspirations. So, using FU/Spin/Eviscerate/Fireball/Death Shroud I got around 740k inf/minute. Now, with the SS/Fire using Rage/Foot Stomp/Fireball/Blazing Aura I got around 900k inf/minute. And no, I haven't been using Fiery Embrace in any of the tests.
With that, I think I'm done running these for now lol.
[U][URL="http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=251594"][/URL][/U]
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I'll bet you'd get even more inf per minute with Ball Lightning and Electric Fences. C'mon, you know you want to. |
Originally Posted by Fiery-Enforcer
Okay I went back to the ambush farm to test out the Claws/Dark with Fireball, this time without using inspirations. So, using FU/Spin/Eviscerate/Fireball/Death Shroud I got around 740k inf/minute. Now, with the SS/Fire using Rage/Foot Stomp/Fireball/Blazing Aura I got around 900k inf/minute. And no, I haven't been using Fiery Embrace in any of the tests.
With that, I think I'm done running these for now lol. |
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Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
Nice build
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Uh, no, that's wrong. I'm not confusing the damage formula. |
Originally Posted by Gilia
You're confusing the damage formula again. It goes Base*(1+All Enhancements(fury,rage,SOs)). If you removed the base 100% (the 1 in that formula) you would get an incorrect proportion. Keep it simple and you'll see why. Let's call our hypothetical power "attack." Attack has 50 base damage. We both bust through ED and get 100% from SOs. You attack with just that and do 100 damage. I add some fury on top, say another 100% damage increase. I attack and do 150 damage.
The proportion then is 100:150, I do 50% more. What you are suggesting above, removing the base, would make the proportion look like 50:100. That would mean I'm doing DOUBLE damage because of Fury. I'm not. That isn't how damage works. You HAVE to include the base if you're trying to consider relative damage. Okay, I made a mistake in my initial math that might have caused some of the confusion. You're still a little off in your reasoning though. When determining my final ratio, I gave the inverse. The actual value should have been 22.7% of the Epic Attack. I did 407/315 (1.29) instead of 1-(315/407) (.227). My mistake. With that correction though, you should see that 22.7% of the epic at 407 is 92 DPS. So A+B has to beat A+C by 22.7% of the DPS that D offers. Which happens to be 92 DPS, as you noted. In formula, that's still: A+B+D > A+C+D*1.227 B+D > C+D*1.227 B>C+D*0.227 The DPS of Claws must be greater than the DPS of SS PLUS the 22.7% of the Epic's DPS. If it had 100 base DPS, that final amount (407*0.227) would be 92 DPS. I'm treating each letter as a final DPS allowed/offered by a powerset. In order for 0.92*D to work, you would have to consider each letter to be the BASE DPS of the set, rather than the effective DPS. If you're working with the base DPS, however, you need to include the expected damage modifiers. 3.15*A+3.15*B+3.15*D > 4.07*A+4.07*C+4.07*D 3.15*B>0.92*A+4.07*C+0.92*D Note here the reality that was ignored above, that the damage modifiers enhance the secondaries as well. For the sake of continuity, let's remain ignorant to that fact. 3.15*B>4.07*C+0.92*D B>(4.07/3.15)*C+(0.92/3.15)*D B>1.29*C+0.29*D I'm sure I changed your letters around. A is the secondary, B is claws sans follow up, C is SS, and D is the epic. The funny thing, using your difference model and base DPS we end up with the 0.29*D that I incorrectly concluded the first time. Using my quotient model and effective DPS we end up with a simpler formula with 0.227*D. Honestly, your method is probably more informative. If I didn't make any hair brained mistakes this time, it shows that Claws has to beat SS by 29% of the base DPS of the Epic and 29% of the base DPS on SS. That's a little easier to crunch than my method's broadstroke "the effective DPS of Claws" > "the effective DPS of SS." Anyway, it's just a matter of how you slice it. It's probably more useful in a word problem anyway: In order for Claws to be better than Super Strength in AoE DPS, Claw's DPS on its own must be greater than Super Strength's DPS on its own by the same amount the Rage contributes to the DPS of the secondary and epic sets. Again, full circle, it does. This has been fun. |
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| You HAVE to include the base if you're trying to consider relative damage. |
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| If I didn't make any hair brained mistakes this time, it shows that Claws has to beat SS by 29% of the base DPS of the Epic |
Let me simplify it for you.
Let's pretend D is 100. That is, the base damage of the epic attack = 100.
Now let's use really basic numbers.
Rage adds 160%. Enhancements 100%. Fury 100%.
With Rage: 4.6D
Without Rage: 3D
The difference is 1.6D. Which is exactly the contribution Rage makes. The difference is NOT 0.29D which you continually write.
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If you're working with the base DPS, however, you need to include the expected damage modifiers. 3.15*A+3.15*B+3.15*D > 4.07*A+4.07*C+4.07*D 3.15*B>0.92*A+4.07*C+0.92*D |
No. NO NO NO. There are no numbers needed in front of A, B & C. They can be any number. Mulitplying them by whatever you want is meaningless. We establish the logical rules of A & C > B & C and that is where it stays. If you want to write it as 3.561A + 1.53C > 1.45B + 6.421C then that accomplishes NOTHING.
Put real numbers into what I have written and you'll see that I am right.
PS interested in seeing some real numbers about which is faster in practice
Alright, this is me running my AE farm, FIRE! (other) Im on +2/x8 with bosses, that seems to be the highest for me.
Its set up so I can end it right when/right after i get my rage crash, some times i can cap some times its as low as 800 tickets.
I ran it 7 times, whole arc and then another 2 mishs, until i had to go spend my tickets basically.
Here are the numbers.
Total time
ticket gain: 9739
Ticket/min: 440.64
inf/min: 589,068.01 (in SG mode)
I did use insp, as well as rage.
I would love to hear other times and what not,
Sorry i dont have the print screen thing for hero stats, i dont know how to post that >.<
Oh, i forgot im on SS/fire/mu.
Another thing i just remembered is that the bosses at least have a 7.5% res to lethal/toxic, sorry Bill >.<
Edit...again: ID is 460877
"I have ridden the mighty moon worm!"
-Al Gore
Fiery Aura is only good for farming, I'm cereal
@Caucasiafro
Now if we could just get someone without a history of lying to get some numbers on Elec/Fire that would be great.
I see where my error in all of this has come from. I foolishly overlooked that the farming tests would be using missions specifically designed to benefit ss/fire.
In order to compete, I would need to design a mission full of enemies weak to lethal that used nothing but fire attacks and had ample knockback protection so that I could add shockwave to the mix.
My bad. Sorry to intrude.
Be well, people of CoH.
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Specifically, I was looking for non-AE missions. You can pick any non-AE mission you like. As I have already said twice... "Pick any non-AE map you want, set on any difficulty you want, with any Claws/X brute with whatever IOs you want. Beat any of those numbers. I wrote the difficulty and player settings I used. Feel free to use different ones."
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Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
I see where my error in all of this has come from. I foolishly overlooked that the farming tests would be using missions specifically designed to benefit ss/fire.
In order to compete, I would need to design a mission full of enemies weak to lethal that used nothing but fire attacks and had ample knockback protection so that I could add shockwave to the mix. My bad. Sorry to intrude. |
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That's actually what I did...|
Originally Posted by BunnyAnomaly
Put real numbers into what I have written and you'll see that I am right.
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I saw that you were considering the variables to mean the relevance of base damage (like you reiterated, again), while I was considering them to mean the effective damage, after being enhanced.
I ran both sets of numbers using arbitrary amounts of DPS for each set. Both routes check out. Like I said, what you were hinting at (though you don't seem to be able to follow through on the math) is a more informative place to start.
Sorry, I don't think there's much value in trying to force the only functions in this experiment to be arithmetic. I know you mentioned a 10th grade algebra class at some point, but I'm well beyond that. The ratio of damage, how much damage one is relative to another, is what you have to use if you want a logical symbol to represent DPS.
If you'd like, I can send you the progression of the strict inequality formula to try to clear it up. I bet if you just read it over again you'll see why it doesn't work the way I've quoted you here.
@Gilia1
I play heroes on Champion.
I play villains on Virtue.
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Yes but the mobs CLUSTER you in AE. You want xp/min (hr) you farm AE. You want purple drops, you farm PvE. |
Originally Posted by Chriffer
Specifically, I was looking for non-AE missions. You can pick any non-AE mission you like. As I have already said twice... "Pick any non-AE map you want, set on any difficulty you want, with any Claws/X brute with whatever IOs you want. Beat any of those numbers. I wrote the difficulty and player settings I used. Feel free to use different ones."
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AE is the xp/inf portion of it all.
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Except you mentioned a number of times it compared to base damage of the set.|
Originally Posted by Gilia
I saw that you were considering the variables to mean the relevance of base damage (like you reiterated, again), while I was considering them to mean the effective damage, after being enhanced.
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I know what you were getting at, you were comparing the entirety of damage granted to one set versus what proportion of that entirety was given to another.
However you contradicted yourself throughout it by referring back to the base damage numerous times. Your method was valid if you had have remained consistent in your workings.
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Except for being weak to leathal, you could easily make those in AE. Use WP for the secondary, pick the self rez and give them Indomitable Will. If you skip the other powers including HTP they will not have any bonus HP, just mez protection and they will all pop up once you kill them. I know alot of players that do something similar to max out the inf/min. WP for example does great vs all S/L mobs, same with invuln or granite, (yes I have seen granite farmers).|
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
I see where my error in all of this has come from. I foolishly overlooked that the farming tests would be using missions specifically designed to benefit ss/fire.
In order to compete, I would need to design a mission full of enemies weak to lethal that used nothing but fire attacks and had ample knockback protection so that I could add shockwave to the mix. My bad. Sorry to intrude. |
That would even out the playing field so that a comparison between the sets would be accurate since both would be at the optimal conditions for max inf/min.
i havent really gone way past 1.2 mill inf/min on my elec/fire/mu. I run a sub 400 mill build but i dont think sinking more into it would make me close to 1.8-2.0 mill/min.
my claw/fire/mu is still on a pre i18 build but as i have troubles getting past 1 mill inf per min i dont see how sinking more inf into it would make me go faster.
Hmm.. if that's one for me then you are the one that has your head so far up your ss/fire that you can't see anything for what it is. I also take that as an insult and will report you for trolling.
And if not then have a nice day.
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Originally Posted by HelinCarnate
Now if we could just get someone without a history of lying to get some numbers on Elec/Fire that would be great.
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So are we to assume that your claws build is also sloted similar in inf amount to how you have your ss/fire toon? Your ss/fire guy costs what? This the same toon that you said gets footsomp up in 4 seconds?
I think we should also have video of you doing anything there Kev considering your well noted bias for ss/fire.
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Originally Posted by Fiery-Enforcer
Okay I went back to the ambush farm to test out the Claws/Dark with Fireball, this time without using inspirations. So, using FU/Spin/Eviscerate/Fireball/Death Shroud I got around 740k inf/minute. Now, with the SS/Fire using Rage/Foot Stomp/Fireball/Blazing Aura I got around 900k inf/minute. And no, I haven't been using Fiery Embrace in any of the tests.
With that, I think I'm done running these for now lol. |
Working on finding the best setting currently. So far it looks like for me with SS/Fire it is +2x8 including bosses at around 1.3-1.4 mil inf / min but I'll keep gathering data.
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Why do you say that? In what ways do the farming tests specifically favor SS/Fire? If anything, the refrain in this thread has been that AE farm missions tend to favor lower-radius AoE powers.
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Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
I see where my error in all of this has come from. I foolishly overlooked that the farming tests would be using missions specifically designed to benefit ss/fire.
In order to compete, I would need to design a mission full of enemies weak to lethal that used nothing but fire attacks and had ample knockback protection so that I could add shockwave to the mix. My bad. Sorry to intrude. |
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Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
Nice build
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Okay, I did it. Forgive me for being PL'd. 1st time I ever paid for it. (I know, everybody says that.) But I just leveled 10 toons in the last week to 20 in Praetoria, and I coudn't do it again. I started a SS/Fire last night and had him PL'd to 32. Then I set out on my own to test him. OMG This is the easiest exp/tickets I have ever done solo in AE.
After fiddling around at lower settings I cranked it to +2/x8. After a couple minutes I hit ticket cap, map still full, exit repeat. (I need to egg timer it to maximize, still testing lol) I am leveling fast, 34 after a couple "test" missions.
I mostly hit Footstomp, Burn, eat inspirations, repeat. The inspiration eating is steady, cause the AoEs keep killing, feeding me. That in turn speeds up the process, keeps me up. No fitness pool, so ya, eating Blues, Greens, I eat em all, fast as they drop. And keep spamming AoEs. It would be uber boring if every time I looked up I didn't see my Exp bar in a way different place then it was last time I looked. Very motivating.
so Far, using SS: Punch, Haymaker, Knockout Blow, Rage, Footstomp. But really mostly just hitting Rage and Footstomp. Using FA: all powers/resists. Have burn patch as highest at 34. Using Fighting set for both toggles. Using Jump set for the 1st toggle. Have flight set, for theme/movement.
Looking forward to my 3rd Aoe from an epic pool, will pick today before I head back to the cities after work. Thinking Soul Mastery, for both theme and cause I like it, but willing to take suggestions.
Yes, it is a themed AE. They all do Fire damage, and i stil have green bar problems. Not sure if they resist fire/smashing, but they are sure dropping fast. (I am using a random Fire Farm, there seem to be millions these days)
Great thread, BTW, this will be my new farmer for the next few months. My main, a pimped out Dark/Invul, is great for badging/TF, but could never ever kill mobs at this rate.
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Im guessing its the ability to finish before a rage drop.
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Originally Posted by Obitus
Why do you say that? In what ways do the farming tests specifically favor SS/Fire? If anything, the refrain in this thread has been that AE farm missions tend to favor lower-radius AoE powers.
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"I have ridden the mighty moon worm!"
-Al Gore
Fiery Aura is only good for farming, I'm cereal
@Caucasiafro
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Ah, that's a good point -- but that little wrinkle still doesn't rise to the level of cherry-picking lethal-susceptible mobs, or KB-resistant mobs, for a Claws run.|
Originally Posted by ultrawatt
Im guessing its the ability to finish before a rage drop.
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We've all heard of Fiery Armor characters cherry-picking demons or whatever, but that's a defensive consideration -- understandable if you're just trying to determine AoE damage output. It's another thing entirely to rig your test in such a way as to fundamentally change the function of powers (like Shockwave).
BillZ's abstract numbers did not include Shockwave. His conclusion was still unequivocally on the side of Claws. If his numbers are close to practical reality, then the inability to use Shockwave regularly shouldn't be an issue; Claws should still be ahead of, or at least in the same ballpark as, Super Strength.
We haven't seen conclusive evidence either way yet -- mostly because no one seems to have an IO'ed Claws/Fire Brute -- but the preliminary evidence seems to favor SS. If the tests thus far have been unfairly biased in SS' favor, then that'd be good to know.
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Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
Nice build
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Are these AE #s over a 2-3 minute period? I'm interested in seeing #s over a 10-15 minute period. Load times count.
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