It doesnt make any sense to stay 15 minutes in AE, you reach ticket Cap in a couple minutes. Mebbe farming for purps in a TV farm that would make sense. Even if you stayed in 15 minutes, got your "accurate" numbers, they would be useless. Because staying in after the ticket cap is not smart.
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Don't stay in the same mission. Do your run, exit the mission, restart. Include the load times in the process.
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Originally Posted by Blue_Centurion
It doesnt make any sense to stay 15 minutes in AE, you reach ticket Cap in a couple minutes. Mebbe farming for purps in a TV farm that would make sense. Even if you stayed in 15 minutes, got your "accurate" numbers, they would be useless. Because staying in after the ticket cap is not smart.
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What are you just trying to get an accurate representation of what the inf/min really is over time? The tests I did was with me only being in the mission, just for the purpose of measuring killing speed. |
Originally Posted by Chriffer
Don't stay in the same mission. Do your run, exit the mission, restart. Include the load times in the process.
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Personally, I only use this type of farm for PL'ing, while I make most my inf from playing the market and farming for purples.
[U][URL="http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=251594"][/URL][/U]
Yeah, I plan to make money off these types of farms from PLing people and the random good reward roll. the killing cash from the AE mish, it is, uh, not so good.
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900k/minute is terrible |
Originally Posted by Blue_Centurion
the killing cash from the AE mish, it is, uh, not so good.
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So person A has a crappy graphics card and a slow computer but can kill lots of stuff much faster than person B. But person B has a super fast computer with great connection and makes more per min overall only because of the faster load times. |
Originally Posted by Chriffer
Don't stay in the same mission. Do your run, exit the mission, restart. Include the load times in the process.
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So who has the better build?
If load times were static then sure, include them. Since they are not you should only use the time from the door right before you move to the time the mish is over and you can either click on exit or get back to the door if you are going to reset.
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So Person A runs a 3 minutes AE and gets 900k while inside the mission. Then he exits the mission, picks the mission again from the AE computer, and re-enters. The loading out, picking new, and loading in takes 1 minute. That's 3 minutes of 900k and 1 minute of 0k.|
Originally Posted by HelinCarnate
So person A has a crappy graphics card and a slow computer but can kill lots of stuff much faster than person B. But person B has a super fast computer with great connection and makes more per min overall only because of the faster load times.
So who has the better build? If load times were static then sure, include them. Since they are not you should only use the time from the door right before you move to the time the mish is over and you can either click on exit or get back to the door if you are going to reset. |
Overall = 675k.
Player B runs a 15 minute mission and gets 750k while inside the mission. The he exits the mission, resets, and reloads. If the load time is the same that's 15 minutes of 700k, 1 minute of 0k.
Overall = 703k.
Here's some brute tests for those who want to try: (Aptly named Brute Tests #1, 2 and 3) 
The time limit is 30 mins. Defeat all.
Set diff to +2 x8 for all tests.
Farm ID - 449116 (Nemesis Farm)
Farm ID - 449127 (rikti)
Farm ID - 449129 (freak)
Please record:
Time complete:
Infamy/min if unable to complete:
Insp use: Y/N
Build: (SO only) (1 bill or less) (2 bill+)
Prim/Sec/App/PPP
There are 3 categories for the builds. Please indicate which build you have.
1) SO only - slotted single orig enh only
2) 1 bill or less - frankenslotted or set builds that cost 1 billion or less
3) 2 bill+ - builds that cost more than 1 billion
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Why defeat all? Why +2/x8? Why not whatever you want?
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Originally Posted by crayhal
Here's some brute tests for those who want to try: (Aptly named Brute Tests #1, 2 and 3)
The time limit is 30 mins. Defeat all.Set diff to +2 x8 for all tests. Farm ID - 449116 (Nemesis Farm) Farm ID - 449127 (rikti) Farm ID - 449129 (freak) Please record: Time complete: Infamy/min if unable to complete: Insp use: Y/N Build: (SO only) (1 bill or less) (2 bill+) Prim/Sec/App/PPP There are 3 categories for the builds. Please indicate which build you have. 1) SO only - slotted single orig enh only 2) 1 bill or less - frankenslotted or set builds that cost 1 billion or less 3) 2 bill+ - builds that cost more than 1 billion |
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You first stated you got max tickets in 5 min. Then when somone posted a better time you said it was done in half the time. So either the 5 min time was a lie or the 2:30 min time was a lie. |
Originally Posted by BellyButtonJelly
Hmm.. if that's one for me then you are the one that has your head so far up your ss/fire that you can't see anything for what it is. I also take that as an insult and will report you for trolling.
And if not then have a nice day. |
This shows a history of lying.
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If you are trying to figure out what farm is best for you then yes, count your own load times when making your calculations. However when trying to determine what build does the most damage using load times throws off the number. So what if person A has a great computer and his load time is 10 seconds and player B has a crap computer and his load time is 2 min? |
Originally Posted by Chriffer
So Person A runs a 3 minutes AE and gets 900k while inside the mission. Then he exits the mission, picks the mission again from the AE computer, and re-enters. The loading out, picking new, and loading in takes 1 minute. That's 3 minutes of 900k and 1 minute of 0k.
Overall = 675k. Player B runs a 15 minute mission and gets 750k while inside the mission. The he exits the mission, resets, and reloads. If the load time is the same that's 15 minutes of 700k, 1 minute of 0k. Overall = 703k. |
When comparing 2 different sets with 2 different people, all other variables should be removed.
I can't understand the desire to be able to say to the next person who asks "best aoe?" -- "well technically this brute has the best Inf/minute, but you have to reload the map every 4 minutes. So, it's not really the best inf/minute, but technically, it is the best."
sorry but no. Counting load times is rediculous. I have 2 different computers I can use. One is a uber sweet vid card, dual monitor, quad core.
one is....totally not. The load time on my other comp is probably 3 times as long as on this one.
Same internet, same toon, totally different comp. But, my toon suddenly sucks cause my other comp I use sometimes does? Yea....using load times to calculate anything pertaining to a killer once INSIDE the mission is anything but brilliant.
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If it is the same brute on a different map all that tells us is what map gives better inf/min with that brute. It tells us nothing about the brute itself.
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Originally Posted by Chriffer
I can't understand the desire to be able to say to the next person who asks "best aoe?" -- "well technically this brute has the best Inf/minute, but you have to reload the map every 4 minutes. So, it's not really the best inf/minute, but technically, it is the best."
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Sorry I can't argue anymore. 5D - 4D = D, when all else holds equal.|
Originally Posted by Gilia
That's actually what I did...
I saw that you were considering the variables to mean the relevance of base damage (like you reiterated, again), while I was considering them to mean the effective damage, after being enhanced. I ran both sets of numbers using arbitrary amounts of DPS for each set. Both routes check out. Like I said, what you were hinting at (though you don't seem to be able to follow through on the math) is a more informative place to start. Sorry, I don't think there's much value in trying to force the only functions in this experiment to be arithmetic. I know you mentioned a 10th grade algebra class at some point, but I'm well beyond that. The ratio of damage, how much damage one is relative to another, is what you have to use if you want a logical symbol to represent DPS. If you'd like, I can send you the progression of the strict inequality formula to try to clear it up. I bet if you just read it over again you'll see why it doesn't work the way I've quoted you here. |
You're wrong, and writing an essay about it doesn't make you any less so.
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This is why I said just read it again...|
Originally Posted by BunnyAnomaly
Sorry I can't argue anymore. 5D - 4D = D, when all else holds equal.
You're wrong, and writing an essay about it doesn't make you any less so. |
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Originally Posted by Gilia
3.15*A+3.15*B+3.15*D > 4.07*A+4.07*C+4.07*D
-3.07D -3.07D 3.15*B>0.92*A+4.07*C+0.92*D Note here the reality that was ignored above, that the damage modifiers enhance the secondaries as well. For the sake of continuity, let's remain ignorant to that fact. 3.15*B>4.07*C+0.92*D /3.15 /3.15 B>(4.07/3.15)*C+(0.92/3.15)*D B>1.29*C+0.29*D I'm sure I changed your letters around. A is the secondary, B is claws sans follow up, C is SS, and D is the epic. |
Also, I didn't contradict myself. The first run down was effective DPS and the second was base DPS. There's no need to argue, just read it again.
This will be my last try. If you don't realize you need to divide to remove a coefficient sometimes, no amount of forum talk is going to help. Perhaps this will:
http://www.onlinemathlearning.com/is...-variable.html
Note the subtraction AND the division in both examples.
Edit: Effective DPS Route
Since this route was too complicated to iterate without an "essay"...
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A+B+D > A+C+D*1.227 -A -A B+D > C+D*1.227 -D -D B>C+D*0.227 |
@Gilia1
I play heroes on Champion.
I play villains on Virtue.
You're wrong. Your entire set up is wrong. Putting numbers before A & B is trivial and wrong. But, I can't back out from a good fight to enlighten you
Back to basics. let's make them equal to see the effect of adding D.
eA + fC = gB + hC
eA + fC + iD = gB + hC + jC when i = j.
Additions of D do not effect constant terms of e,f,g & h.
You can substitute one into the other so you can subtract terms.
if eA + fC = gB + hC
then
eA + fC + iD = eA + fC + jC
subtract eA and fC from both sides
iD = jD
Divide by D, i = j.
Plainly, the difference of adding D is simply the amount of D you add. No tricks.
Your bare fundamentals are wrong. The very very basics you have mistaken. Everything you base that on is therefore wrong. It is irrelevant what constants you give before A, B & C once you establish the first equation because additions of D do not affect these constants.
For a formal answer of just how big i and r need to be, irrespective of all variables:
Initial logic:
eA + fC > gB + hC
Add r which is the difference, to make the terms equal:
eA + fC + r = gB + hC
Now we add D to the equation for the new powers. Note that 'D' is different on both sides, but the remaining terms hold the same.
eA + fC + r + iD = eA + fC + jD
subtract eA & fC from both sides:
r + iD = jD
Subtract iD from both sides:
r = jD - iD
This can be shown to be substantiated by the first set of equations, where r = 0, and jD = iD. I'm sure see that r is a constant, just like e, f, g, h, i & j are constants. You cannot change them because the addition of any quantity of D does not change the contribution of your initial powers. This is where you are going wrong.
When jD - iD > r, "Super Strength" > "Claws". ie: If Claws is better than super strength by 100 damage, and Super Strength has 4D while Claws has 3D (ie: Super Strength gains 400 damage vs Claw's 300 damage, where D = 100), the sets are now equal. Once Super Super Strength is 4.1D vs Claws' 3D, Super Strength is now 0.1D ahead, or 10 damage ahead.
If you've read what I've done and are still unsure, you can see that any number you put in front of A, B or C is irrelevant because it is simplified away. The only important information is the difference, r, and the quantity of D added.
Set the two types of powersets to be equal and put the difference r there. Subtract them away from each other.
when claws > SS, r>0.
when claws = SS, r = 0
r + iD or jD? You just need jD - iD > R.
It's basic arithmetic of minusing the constant terms. The constant terms are the damage multipliers. Fury are equal, enhancement is equal, so the difference is Rage. j - i = Rage.
Hence, when Rage*D > r, Super Strength > Claws.
Final proof, real numbers test.
(claws) > (super strength)
A + C > B + C
80 + 80 > 40 + 80
160 > 120
120 + r > 120
now we add D. We have approximately agreed that the damage multiplier is +100% from enhancements, +100% for fury, +160% for Rage.
120 + r + 3D vs 120 + 4.6D
r + 3D vs 4.6D
r vs 1.6D
r = 40 in this instance.
when D > 25 (40/1.6), super strength > claws. Let's sub back in to show this:
160 + 3*26 < 120 + 4.6*26
238 < 239.6
Let's look back at what I originally have argued: jD - iD = difference in contribution D makes. When iD - jD > r, Super Strength Wins. Above, you can see that 4.6D - 3D = 1.6D, and once 1.6D > R (ie: 1.6*25.01 > 40, which it is)...
There you have it. Proof in raw algebra, then substantiated with real numbers. Once again.. 5D - 4D = 1D. When 1D > initial difference, presto!
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Thanks kindly but I am majoring in Economics and getting high distinctions in my quantitative subjects.
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Originally Posted by Gilia
http://www.onlinemathlearning.com/is...-variable.html
Note the subtraction AND the division in both examples. |
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Well, I can spot two mistakes in your post three up. I'm afraid you just don't understand proportions to get my method. Again, if you would like to be educated on the matter, send me a PM. This wall of text thing, you might find it intimidating, but I don't. I just find it rude to the people using this thread for a more constructive purpose.
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Originally Posted by BunnyAnomaly
Thanks kindly but I am majoring in Economics and getting high distinctions in my quantitative subjects.
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@Gilia1
I play heroes on Champion.
I play villains on Virtue.
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This is too true. Jut finished 50ing my SS/FA/MU Brute and he is a monster.....on certain maps. I'd never have this beast as my main, cause on other maps he is a paper tiger. On the other hand, left in the little closet that will be his home he makes money hand over fist.
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Originally Posted by HelinCarnate
If it is the same brute on a different map all that tells us is what map gives better inf/min with that brute. It tells us nothing about the brute itself.
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Thats exactly what I do with mine. Still spend most of my time on him though >.<
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Originally Posted by Blue_Centurion
This is too true. Jut finished 50ing my SS/FA/MU Brute and he is a monster.....on certain maps. I'd never have this beast as my main, cause on other maps he is a paper tiger. On the other hand, left in the little closet that will be his home he makes money hand over fist.
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"I have ridden the mighty moon worm!"
-Al Gore
Fiery Aura is only good for farming, I'm cereal
@Caucasiafro
Billz I'm sitting here, having read your comparison between claws and super strength, and some questions came to mind. I would appreciate any time you would take, indulging me, and clarifying some things. I would also like to mention that i'm approaching this neutrally, with no preference to either set.
First, why is there a rule that you cannot use a power more than once durring your attack chain? Especially when counting the dps for the ss chain, which animates in just over 5 seconds, as dps for 10 seconds despite being able to use footstomp again. This is in contrast to the strength of Footstomp which is the ability to use it many, many times. In fact if you add a second footstomp, which still fits into the 10s limit, the SS chain goes up to 1321.63 or 132.16dps. Numbers for the rightfully wary of my 4:00am math skills:
59.23 + 59.23 + 37.54 + 103.48 + 45.9 = 305.38 ->
305.38 * 5.05 = 1542.16 -> 1542.16 - (1542.16 * .143) = 1321.63 -> 1321.63d / 10s = 132.16 d/s.
*Actually, ignoring fireball and using a straight burn/footstomp chain will animate at 8.976s doing
59.23x2 + 103.48x2 + 45.9 = 371.32 -> 371.32 * 5.05 = 1875.17 -> 1875.17 - (1875.17 * .143) = 1607.02 -> 1607.02d / 10s = 160.7d/s.
Though you would hit a much smaller number of enemies. Unfortunatly Trying to add a fireball as well, puts you over 10s by .16s when you account for arcana time 
*
*whoops, thought I deleted this part due to inaccuracy before submiting and wasn't intending to leave it in. Feel free to disregard.
Next I would wonder if it is better to do something similar with claws, drop fireball and try to double stack follow up for your burn/blazing aura. At current bonuses fireball does 37.54 damage. So the damage gained by an addition 30% buff would have to exceed that.
I'll assume ideal and perfect timing, so blazing aura would tick twice during spin and evicerate, and iirc activating follow up should benefit the last 3 ticks of blazing aura even if the animation is not finished by the time the third tick would activate. This means claws would have 60% bonus for 3 ticks of blazing aura and burn. Three ticks would be 27.54 * .3 = 8.26 extra damage from blazing aura, and 103.48 * .3 = 31.04 extra damage from a double stack burn. A grand total of 1.76 extra damage per target. Though hitting even 1 more target with fireball would make it pull ahead.
Methinks this whole thing is a lot more complicated than first impressions would lead a person to believe.
Anyhoo, gl all and have fun I get to go home and actually play now!! 
P.S. It takes a lot longer to type stuff than it does to think it all up 
Murphys Military Law
#23. Teamwork is essential; it gives the enemy other people to shoot at.
#46. If you can't remember, the Claymore is pointed towards you.
#54. Killing for peace is like screwing for virginity.
I think we should also have video of you doing anything there Kev considering your well noted bias for ss/fire.
Yes, the tests I did with my SS/Fire was with fire damage enemies, when I used my Claws/Dark it was the same mission with S/L damage enemies. Since I wasn't using all of my attacks, I stayed in the mission long enough for at least 2 rage crashes to get a good representation of how it effects the speed.
However, I also did tests with a regular mission that I happened to make in AE for ease of use and so both of my toons could use the same mission on the same map.
[U][URL="http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=251594"][/URL][/U]