I dont have any claws/ toons but i do have a Night Widow and even in AE ambush mobs evicerate almost never hits the max targets, but maybe cones just hate me >.<
"I have ridden the mighty moon worm!"
-Al Gore
Fiery Aura is only good for farming, I'm cereal
@Caucasiafro
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Unfortunately what you describe isn't the case here. I may be coming in this one too late to read everything completely so I do apologise if that's what is happening. However:|
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
Math ain't hard, folks.
I'm dealing with A and B and B > A If I add C to both, B+C > A+C If I add D to both, B+C+D > A+C+D This isn't rocket surgery. |
Let's say #2 is correct: B+C > A+C
If you add D to both groups, then what you have written is true.
However, you are not adding D to both groups. You are adding D in unequal amounts to both groups.
B+C+2D may not be greater than A+C+3D
Double Stacked Rage adds more of D to a SS Brute than it does by adding D to a non-SS Brute. This continues to apply for any and every power you add to the mix. The further you go, the more SS gets out of it, because they both have the same base (D) but SS has a higher damage multiplier.
Given the duration of the attack chain, and it will be highly recharge dependant, additional powers shared by the two parties will favour SS.
You guys are making my head spin with all this math. (yes im that bad at math) @.@
Anyway, whats a good program to record yourself playing this game and keep the windows and what not (as demo recording seems to get rid of those)? As that seems to be one of the ways to go about this debate.
"I have ridden the mighty moon worm!"
-Al Gore
Fiery Aura is only good for farming, I'm cereal
@Caucasiafro
I'm going to start by noting that I just got done running 2 scanner missions with council, meaning large wolves thrown into the mix at +4/x8 diff. I found that if there was 10 enemies to be hit, the spin was hitting them with the expected 5% chance to miss. So again, I'm finding this thought that the radius is playing a huge role to bit a bit overstated. I also saw many occurences of eviscerate hitting 5 enemies due to the way enemies swarm the player up until they began to thin out. So I am willing to play around with those numbers. As we've seen with the AI recently, those that choose to leave melee tend to get quite a ways away before turning and attacking from range.
Let's examine BunnyAnomaly's post then, completely, using double stacked rage. We've already stated that you have to have 300% total recharge in rage for a true doublestacking. (240/1+3=60)
We've already shown that the rage crash kills 1/7th of damage output when double stacked. (lasts 120 seconds, fires off every 60, crash occurs for 10 every 60)
To get that 300% recharge, we're going to need a few things.
ED-capped rec-red at 95
Hasten for 70
5 LotG +recharge for 37.5
5 purple sets for 50
Still short 47.5% global rec-red, but we'll assume you've got it. And we'll assume that each of your attacks has somehow managed to get 95% rec-red slotted AND 95% damage slotted AND you're at the tohit cap so you only miss 5% of the time. (A rather tall order, but we'll roll with it.)
We'll also assume the brute went blue side to get pyre mastery.
Recharge on footstomp at 300% recharge is now 5 seconds from 20 with a 2.244 second arcanatime cast.
Recharge on fireball at 300% recharge is now 8 seconds from 32 with a 1.188 atime cast.
Recharge on burn at 300% recharge is now 6.25 from 25 with a 2.244 atime cast.
Total activation time: 5.676 seconds
Max targets: 10, 16, 5
Base damage: 59.23, 37.54, 103.48
With those weird recharge times, you don't have a solid chain. Even AT 3005 recharge in everything. But again, we'll roll with it assuming that recharge starts after the power's activation. (There's some question about that but we haven't gotten a definitive answer.)
What we're really looking at is around 10 seconds for fireball's activation + recharge and in that 10 seconds, we get to use each attack once.
Blazing aura does 9.18 every 2 seconds so 45.9 during chain with max target of 10.
160% from rage
150% from fury
95% from enhancement
Total base damage: 59.23 + 37.54 + 103.48 + 45.9 = 246.15
With Damage buffs: 246.15 * 5.05 = 1243.06 Now that's against one target with all attacks and DoT ticks hitting it for a DPS of 124.31. But we can not ignore the 1/7th drop to zero damage output when doublestacking rage. This drops it down to 1065.48 or 106.55 DPS.
Let's move on to claws. Same rules. 300% recharge.
There we're adding fireball, burn and blazing aura to spin and eviscerate. Same 10 seconds. Do all 5 powers fit in that 10 seconds?
Spin atime: 2.64
Evisc atime: 2.508
+ burn and fireball = 8.58 total chain time
Guess I do get to add 1.054 for followup. Single stacked due to length of chain.
Base damage: 78.83 + 90.96 + 37.54 + 103.48 + 45.9 = 356.71
30% from followup
150% from fury
95% from enhancement
Damage buffed = 1337.67 or 133.78 DPS
Hmmm. Ok. Let's deal with the aoe sizes now.
SS: Hell, it's all pbaoes, so let it have the full size even though we know that the numbers drop as the spawn size drops and as enemies run to range.
New damage totals for SS hitting everything:
(592.3 + 600.64 + 517.4 + 459) * 5.05 * 6/7 = 9390.14
For claws, we'll say spin only hits 9. Eviscerate only hits 3.
(709.47 + 272.88 + 600.64 + 517.4 + 459) * 3.75 = 9597.71
Guess what kills SS? The rage crash. If you single stack rage so you only get 1 crash every 120 seconds you end up with:
(592.3 + 600.64 + 517.4 + 459) * 4.25 * 12/13 = 8510.49
Well cool, double stacking still wins over single stacking.
This is fun. But.... what if adding fireball and burn isn't the most efficient way for a claws to run when he's got 300% recharge? New chain is fu, spin, eviscerate, using same targets hit as above... but the chain only takes 6.24 seconds.
(709.47 + 272.88 + 459) * 4.05 = 5837.47 but the new DPS is 935.49
bahh, better to leave in burn and fireball
Again, I'm using claws because it's my favorite set and the one I number crunch the most. Anybody can do this with the other sets.
All I'm trying to show is that the love of SS's aoe output doesn't really seem to correlate to the math behind the game. I don't need 300% recharge to do followup, spin, eviscerate repeat. For the SS user, the moment you go below that 300% global recharge in Rage, that double stacked buff goes away but the length of time between crashes increases.
Be well, people of CoH.
Not sure what you are trying to show. My post was correct, your algebra was wrong.
Edit: To make it clearer, your reasoning is false. Your conclusion may be correct, however, but that is just a matter of coincidence.
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Prove it. My numbers haven't been wrong once in this thread.|
Originally Posted by BunnyAnomaly
Not sure what you are trying to show. My post was correct, your algebra was wrong.
|
The only thing up to question is whether foot stomp's large radius is as much a boon as some believe it to be.
Your hope that my math is wrong means nothing here.
Be well, people of CoH.
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It is wrong. And quite clearly so (at least to me, and I would assume anyone that has done beyond 10th grade algebra and knows that a variable on either side of the equation must be the same, else you should use a different symbol).|
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
Prove it. My numbers haven't been wrong once in this thread.
The only thing up to question is whether foot stomp's large radius is as much a boon as some believe it to be. Your hope that my math is wrong means nothing here. |
I demonstrated that already. You are not adding an equal number each time you add powers into the equation and hence you cannot be adding D to both side. Therefore your reasoning is flat out wrong.
Again - you may be right with your damage numbers (which I never disputed), but that is by coincidence, not anything to do with your algebraic manipulation which is incorrect.
So you're going to argue against my analogy when you aren't even aware of what the variables I used stood for and then state that I'm correct anyway?
Ok.
For the record, if you take the time to go through my posts, you'll see what those variables actually mean.
But I'll save you the time.
A is super strength.
B is claws.
C is fiery aura.
D in this case, is pyre mastery.
B + C + D is greater than A + C + D as the last post has shown.
Be well, people of CoH.
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Actually those are what I deduced. You are wrong.|
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
So you're going to argue against my analogy when you aren't even aware of what the variables I used stood for and then state that I'm correct anyway?
Ok. For the record, if you take the time to go through my posts, you'll see what those variables actually mean. But I'll save you the time. A is super strength. B is claws. C is fiery aura. D in this case, is pyre mastery. B + C + D is greater than A + C + D as the last post has shown. |
These numbers are variables, expressed in terms of damage.
D is not applied evenly on either side, because D is amplified by Rage on one side by Build Up on the other.
Assuming B + C > A + C, adding D would to both sides would hold your statement true. But your set up is incorrect.
You would be best expressing this as:
B + C + xD vs A + C + y*D.
The statement only holds true when x is greater than or equal to y.
Now you need to consider what values x & y truly have. I will use arbitray numbers here so that it may be illustratively demonstrated.
x = 1.95*(damage modifiers*probability of damage modifiers in place)*Rage. 1.95 is the enhancement due to slotting, and Rage is quite self explanatory.
y = 1.95*(damage modifiers*probability of damage modifiers in place)*Rage. Once again, same explanation.
Because the same base, D, is used, the 1.95 and Rage component can be removed in a direct comparison. That leaves the damage modifiers*probability in place.
Once more, arbitrarily, let's say you have 300% recharge, which gives you approximately 10 seconds of uptime and 30 seconds of recharge for build up. Therefore your probability is .333 (10/30). If the damage boost is 80%, then you are left with 0.266, or a 26% enhancement in D.
Now, consider you have ra,ge with 300% recharge, which gives you permanent rage + 66% of the time double stacked rage. You would also have 5/3 rage crashes per 240 seconds. This would leave you with approximately 132% bonus damage for 223 seconds and 0 damage output for 17 seconds.
y > x. Hence, the original logical equation you have written is false, and your justification is flawed.
I realized you were correct while outside smoking. The variable, rage, coming off of A affects both C and D. Same way that the variable, followup, coming from B affects C and D.
You were correct to correct me. My bad.
Edit: However, the posts containing actual math stand. Claws doesn't have particularly awesome AoE and comes out on top even adding in a damage secondary and an APP aoe. I'm very curious as to whether some of the other aoe-centric primaries show similar damage output.
Be well, people of CoH.
Since I suck at math, the only correction is that the brute doesnt need to go blue side. He gets it anyway at 41.
Sorry, that's all I can do. 
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Wouldn't x=3 mean you need 200% global recharge, since ~100% will come from enhancements?|
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
SS: Foot stomp: rec-red needed to get it down to 5 seconds for 2 stomps per 10 seconds: Base recharge is 20sec.
5 = 20 / 1+X 5 + 5x = 20 x = 3 300% global recharge needed in footstomp. Yea, that ain't happening. How about 7 seconds? 186% recharge needed, yea, that's completely doable. |
If you even get 100% global recharge, a Force Feedback proc gives you a decent chance to get Footstomp back in 5 seconds. Namely 1-(0.9^X) where X is how many you hit. If you max it out at 10 that's a 65% chance to have it back in 5 seconds. Force Feed back happens to last 5 seconds, so occasionally you can string together a few 5 second foot stomps even on a pretty cheap build like my SS/Electric/Mu has.
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Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
Let's examine BunnyAnomaly's post then, completely, using double stacked rage. We've already stated that you have to have 300% total recharge in rage for a true doublestacking. (240/1+3=60)
We've already shown that the rage crash kills 1/7th of damage output when double stacked. (lasts 120 seconds, fires off every 60, crash occurs for 10 every 60) |
However, to do that you only need to activate Rage every 70 seconds. Which would only take 242.25% recharge. (240/1+2.425)=70.07
I think that's a wee bit easier to pull off. It would delay your initial "double rage" by 10 seconds, but from then the end would be the same. I only have 200% recharge on one of my characters and that was a very much "all in" build. I imagine you compromise a fair amount getting a Brute build to that much recharge, let alone higher than that.
I'm pointing this out because of this rather goofy response:
Quote:
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Originally Posted by BunnyAnomaly
Not sure what you are trying to show. My post was correct, your algebra was wrong.
Edit: To make it clearer, your reasoning is false. Your conclusion may be correct, however, but that is just a matter of coincidence. |
SS has a healthy amount of AoE and it is nice how Rage lends itself to a secondary and an epic with more AoE. However, the fast recharging, good DPA AoEs in Claws paired with an also awesome global damage bonus power are just better. The only advantage I see to SS is that increased radius, and that's only because I've been speeding villain tip missions on the lowest difficulty. If I were farming, the radius would not matter because I would kill what was bunched up nicely and then move on to the next group. With either power set, if you're standing around at each mob cleaning them up you're not maxing out your DPS anyhow.
@Gilia1
I play heroes on Champion.
I play villains on Virtue.
Ah while I'm at it,
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This isn't true.|
Originally Posted by BunnyAnomaly
x = 1.95*(damage modifiers*probability of damage modifiers in place)*Rage. 1.95 is the enhancement due to slotting, and Rage is quite self explanatory.
y = 1.95*(damage modifiers*probability of damage modifiers in place)*Rage. Once again, same explanation. |
X=1+(enhancements+fury+rage)
The damage modification from enhancements, rage, and fury are ADDED together, not multiplied. You take the base and multiply it by the enhancements in the power, fury's bonus, and rage's bonus combined.
I can see why you might think rage is the end all be all if ALL your damage was multiplied by 2.6. It isn't though.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by BunnyAnomaly
Let's say #2 is correct: B+C > A+C
If you add D to both groups, then what you have written is true. However, you are not adding D to both groups. You are adding D in unequal amounts to both groups. B+C+2D may not be greater than A+C+3D |
Even with double rage, you're talking about +160% damage. If you figure fury adds 120%, enhancements add 95%, and the base is 100%, then double rage is adding 160% to what is already 315%. That's an increase in damage of about 50%.
That's countered by a drop in damage of 1/7th from rage crashes.
So the first pool of damage all brutes get: 315%
The pool that SS double-rage Brutes get: 407% ((315+160)*6/7)
Even without considering that you will likely lose some fury while it crashes, now the real damage difference is 29%.
So if all the other sets get D, then SS/ gets 1.29D.
So claws only has to beat SS by 0.29D to be better.
It does.
@Gilia1
I play heroes on Champion.
I play villains on Virtue.
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Yea, when I state global I mean from all sources. Enhancements, quickness, hasten, whatever. Regardless, you're right in that 300 isn't as hard to do as that post made it seem. 70 from hasten, 37.5 from LotGs, 95 from enhancement, 50 from 5 purple sets, 47.5% more needed from elsewhere.| Wouldn't x=3 mean you need 200% global recharge, since ~100% will come from enhancements? |
True about that force feedback proc. That must rock in foot stomp.
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| If you actually activated Rage every 60 seconds, then you'd be killing 1/6th of the damage. You'd spend 10 seconds crashed, 50 seconds double raged, 10 seconds crashed, and so on. The crash would be eating into each activation. To get 1/7th you would activate rage the instant the crash ended. That seems possible enough, watching your damage bonus and everything. |
If I turn on rage, the first crash will occur 120 seconds later and last 10 seconds. Right? If rage fires again at 60 seconds, then I still get the rage crash from second 120 to second 130. 50 seconds later... ohhhh. Ooo, that's bad for the doublestackers. Good catch.
Be well, people of CoH.
Yep should have added not multiplied for my values of x and y
My initial 2D/3D was there to illustrate that Rage provides different multiples to D's damage value.
And full circle we have come.
So the question: Why is the perception of SS's AoE dominance so prevalent when it doesn't stand up to scrutiny?
Be well, people of CoH.
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It's hard to argue that Footstomp doesn't have a significant practical advantage when its area is 3.5 times larger than most melee PBAoE powers'. In a farming context, maybe that's not an issue, because presumably you're fighting alone and free to bunch up mobs as you like. Not a big farmer myself, so YMMV.|
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
The only thing up to question is whether foot stomp's large radius is as much a boon as some believe it to be.
|
But over the course of the game? Footstomp is justifiably regarded as one of the premiere melee AoE powers, and not just because it has a fantastic secondary effect. Unfortunately, FS's ease of use is offset by the inconvenience of Rage crashes -- which are a pain in the neck in a general context, no matter how many people post about farming runs that are timed around crashes, and no matter how many Vet-Reward powers you have.
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Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
Nice build
|
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I have two entirely subjective theories.|
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
And full circle we have come.
So the question: Why is the perception of SS's AoE dominance so prevalent when it doesn't stand up to scrutiny? |
A) I honestly think it's the large radius on Foot Stomp, with a screen shake and knockdown. That combined with the simplicity of spamming the same attack over and over. You don't even really need to move around to keep hitting several targets.
B) For Tankers, before Dual Blades, it was the only attack set with a consistent damage bonus. Even there, though, I imagine a /Fire Tanker can compete with a /SS Tanker's damage.
Who knows.
@Gilia1
I play heroes on Champion.
I play villains on Virtue.
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What kind of numbers are you after? inf per min or defeats as well?|
Originally Posted by Fiery-Enforcer
Cause we know everything on paper works out exactly the same in game.
When I have time I'll do a few runs with my SS/Fire using herostats and post some real numbers. If anyone wants to do the same with a Claws/Fire and Elec/Fire, go ahead and we'll compare results. |
Time limit?
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Me, I think that it's a holdout perception from before Brutes got Claws. The larger radius definitely helps for ease of use (i.e., you don't need to make sure that everything is packed in tight around you before using it), but I'm thinking that people still aren't thinking of Claws when it comes to Brutes, even though they've had it for a bit.
|
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
And full circle we have come.
So the question: Why is the perception of SS's AoE dominance so prevalent when it doesn't stand up to scrutiny? |
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
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I'm going to have to agree with you. I think it's a combination of this and an old argument tankers used to have about which was better for farms, Fire/Fire or SS/Fire. |
Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn
Me, I think that it's a holdout perception from before Brutes got Claws. The larger radius definitely helps for ease of use (i.e., you don't need to make sure that everything is packed in tight around you before using it), but I'm thinking that people still aren't thinking of Claws when it comes to Brutes, even though they've had it for a bit.
|
I've also seen SS/fire mentioned a lot over the years, but truth be told, very rarely have I seen an elec/fire.
Bill, I want to thank you for bringing the final say to the argument. While we don't have the numbers on Elec, I can say with reasonable certainty that if claws is so far ahead, elec will be too.
To the guy championing the cause of Elec/Fire, I was wrong, you were right.
Good hunting.
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Sorry but your 'correction' to my math here is incorrect.|
Originally Posted by Gilia
You were right insofar as simply +D was not totally accurate. However, neither is saying 2D to 3D.
Even with double rage, you're talking about +160% damage. If you figure fury adds 120%, enhancements add 95%, and the base is 100%, then double rage is adding 160% to what is already 315%. That's an increase in damage of about 50%. That's countered by a drop in damage of 1/7th from rage crashes. So the first pool of damage all brutes get: 315% The pool that SS double-rage Brutes get: 407% ((315+160)*6/7) Even without considering that you will likely lose some fury while it crashes, now the real damage difference is 29%. So if all the other sets get D, then SS/ gets 1.29D. So claws only has to beat SS by 0.29D to be better. It does. |
Let's assume you are adding xD to one and yD to the other.
The difference is (x-y)D.
What you have written is (x/y)D.
You have expressed the increase as a percentage (ie: added all the numbers up and determined how much larger x is over y in %). However what you need to find is simply their difference in outright numbers.
Let's look at what you have written again, using your own numbers.
Double stacked Rage = 407% = 4.07D (actually, that might be 3.07D because you put D into it already - the 100% damage base, which is part of where you went wrong)
Claws = 315% = 3.15D (once again, I think you should have 2.15D, same reason above)
According to what you have written, the difference of (A&C) vs (B&C) must be less than 0.29D (where 0.29 = 4.07/3.15). However, you should be subtracting 3.15 from 4.07 to give 0.92D. This is because when you compare A+C+D vs B+C+D, you subtract one from another!
It can be quite easily illustrated by taking arbitrarily high numbers to demonstrate why your correction is in fact a non-correction. Take it is 801D and 800D. According to your method, you take the percentage increase which is 0.0125%, or 0.0125D. However, the difference is actually, simply, 1D.
It appears you have baked everything in together to make D and this is where you mistake has been.
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I wouldn't go that far. If I've learned anything being a part of this community it's that validation should occur regardless of how well we expect our calculations to correlate with reality.| Bill, I want to thank you for bringing the final say to the argument. |
I could probably work out the electric numbers, but CoD needs some updating and I'm unsure on the numbers behind Elec's teleport attack. We're also all leaning toward /FA being the winner, but no one has put up the numbers for SS/Shield. Since you can't have claws/shield, I'd be very curious as to whether shield charge + aao cranks SS into the winner's circle. But then, /SD would also benefit Elec just as well.
Be well, people of CoH.
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Simplicity is effectiveness in this case, though. For every moment that BillZ's theoretical Claws character has to reposition, he loses DPS. Doesn't mean that his numbers are invalid, but it's inappropriate to dismiss a 350% advantage in area.|
Originally Posted by Gilia
I have two entirely subjective theories.
A) I honestly think it's the large radius on Foot Stomp, with a screen shake and knockdown. That combined with the simplicity of spamming the same attack over and over. You don't even really need to move around to keep hitting several targets. |
That area advantage dovetails very well with APP attacks like Fireball and Ball Lightning. Can you wring out more effective DPS using a set with more AoE powers? Probably, but Foostomp + APP attacks are foolproof AoE carnage.
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| B) For Tankers, before Dual Blades, it was the only attack set with a consistent damage bonus. Even there, though, I imagine a /Fire Tanker can compete with a /SS Tanker's damage. |
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Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
Nice build
|
But point taken.
It was more a "I wonder what's possible with the numbers?" than "here's a chain for you all to run!".
Personally, my closest to the Golden 400% (if you don't count the Fire/Kin corr) is an Ill/Empath that's a little under 20% short in Phantom Army. It would, however, be at the cap if it wasn't for that dratted lack of +Heal% set bonuses in Panaceas...