Best aoe dmg

Assuming AE farms, I can't recall not having the groups so clumped up around me that I'd have to reposition if I weren't SS.


edit: In regards to Footstomp vs. Spin

I believe the area makes a significant different for farming. I am open to the idea that it doesn't but I would need evidence (herostat numbers and let me watch you play) showing that claws smaller range is more effective. I do not believe that most packs are spawned in such a way where a player can jump in the middle and immediately hit them all with Spin. The delay in waiting for them to bunch up, I believe, causes Spin to be less effective than Foot Stomp. As I said, I am open to evidence to the contrary.

Here are my numbers on an SS/Elec/Mu from pre-Going Rogue. I ran liberate for about 10-15 minutes. I didn't feel like doing a whole run. I think I limited myself to the first island. Anymap you can do for 10 minutes straight works.
Farming for Purples:
48.87 Enemies per minute. (359k Inf/Minute) +0/x8 No Bosses, Liberate
37.43 Enemies per minute. (348k Inf/Minute) +0/x8 Bosses, Liberate
Farming for Inf:
443.2k Inf/Minute (18.01 Defeats) +2/x8 Bosses, Liberate
515k Inf/Minute (27.8 defeats) +3/x8 No Bosses, Liberate

Pick any non-AE map you want, set on any difficulty you want, with any Claws/X brute with whatever IOs you want. Beat any of those numbers. I wrote the difficulty and player settings I used. Feel free to use different ones.

I've learned that challenges like this have been the greatest way for me, or really anyone, to learn cool new things on CoH. In the past, some players have said things I did not believe. They showed me numbers and showed me how they played and I was amazed. I stole their secrets and incorporated them into my own playstyles and have had great results. Slotting hurdle comes to mind as an example as something that astounded me.

**EDIT** I know SS/Fire is more effective than my SS/Elec (I've played fully IO'd both.) I believe SS/Shield may be superior to /Elec as well. However, I think these SS/Elec #s are good enough for comparison purposes.

Interesting, I just did a test comparing Foot Stomp and Spin in an AE farm where you'll most likely always be at the aggro cap, so positioning doesn't matter much. This test was done with my SS/Fire and my Claws/Dark, I just stood in one area.

With the Claws/Dark I kept Death Shroud on for the taunt and only used FU and Spin whenever they were up, it was topping at around 500k inf/minute. Now with the SS/Fire I did the same thing and kept Blazing Aura on for the same reason, except I only used Foot Stomp, no Rage and was able to get about the same 500k inf/minute with it.

Spin is slotted with a full set of Obliterations while Foot Stomp is slotted with 5 Armageddon's (minus DMG) and a FF +rech proc. I can run some more tests, but I would say the radius in Foot Stomp indeed makes a difference.

That's what I would expect to see. Now do the same with fu/spin/eviscerate/death shroud versus rage/footstomp/blazing aura.

I'd like to do a comparison utilizing all of my SS/Fire's attacks, but unfortunately I do not have a Claws/Fire to do a fair comparison.

Great thread and great read this turned into. The best thing is that there may not be one clear cut winner thus making it not such a simple question to answer about what is really best. Raw numbers show something I would not have guessed for claws. Interestingly there is enough of an unknown property to leave some speculation and that brings up a reason to try something new.

I admit some frustration in always seeing SS promoted as the only way to go for AoE Dmg(farming). It turns out that its just 1 option of several good choices that can be made. Choice is a reason that I always promoted elec/fire when ss/fire made its claims. Its what I run its been effective and is a solid set and every bit as good as ss/fire if not better for certain reasons. More importantly there is more than 1 option to choose from making the game very interesting and complex and not just a simple, make this build its the best and be done answer.

I don't need to see numbers for elec/fire to convince me that its solid but if someone wants to see them I could possibly help bring them to the table.

Alright, I did a few more tests including what you suggested. With Rage/Foot Stomp/Blazing Aura I got around 605k inf/minute, while with FU/Spin/Eviscerate/Death Shroud I got around 625k inf/minute, thus giving the edge to Claws in this case.

Now here's a test I decided to do which would be hard to duplicate, so I just did a few runs with each. I added the epic AoE into the equation, Dark Obliteration with Claws and Fireball with SS, I know Fireball has an edge in this situation. I also added inspiration usage, specifically I converted everything into reds and used them like crazy.

The results I got with the Claws/Dark worked out to around 1 mil inf/minute each run, while the SS/Fire worked out to around 1.35 mil inf/minute each run. I know this isn't the ideal comparison namely because of Dark Obliteration vs. Fireball, but that's all I can work with right now.

This really is a great thread. I have absolutely no hard data to add. I do love many of the posts and details however (did 2 years calculus at one point, and I love these discussions)

for personal choice I am lazy (and I run a lot of non-AE, cause I just do) I have experience with SS and like, and Claws redraw just bothers me. The laziness refers to the large diameter, no ain. I slide to a SS/FS build myself. In fact, I am thinking of the costume/name even as we speak.

I do need to see #s. I would love to see herostat #s on elec/fire and claws/x. Speculation and theoretical data on what a set hypothetically could achieve does not always correlate to in game ability.

I understand one can be very good on a multitude of builds. But I'd like to know exactly how good and how far behind one build is from another under a very narrow set of circumstances. I've heard lots of people say things like "any archetype and any build can be good at farming". I like to understand that when some people say good they really mean "half of this other guy."

Yeah, I plan on running some more tests later. I'll setup a regular AE mission to compare the two so we have something else to work with rather than just an ambush farm.

Inspirations can, do and should count. Certain builds can benefit more from inspirations than others. For example, compare one build that has great survivability and lower damage to one with less survivability and more damage. Hypothetically, the lower survivability one may need to use more Purple and Orange inspirations. The more survivable/less damage one may be able to use more Reds.

I assume the debate is "in game effectiveness". Crossing off inspirations or other in-game tools negates the purpose of determining true in game effectiveness. I usually cross off AE because some of the maps get so outrageous that its not really like City of Heroes at all. Also, unless its Dev choice purples cannot drop in AE maps. If the concept is "I want AoE to maximize my killing to maximize my income" then earning purples is a big deal.

I want to know what the uppermost limit is in AoE killing potential. I want to know what the best player using the best tactics can accomplish. I understand that two players using the same character on the same map can generate vastly differently numbers because of playskill. However, in the pursuit of trying to honestly determine "which kicks more AoE butt" I know I'm willing to show what I know so that everyone can know whatever pathetic playskill tricks I know in the hopes that you all can show me the epic things you know.

Here's my take on insps. I don't use them for testing. Period. Ever. I do, however, use them when playing.

Testing is what we do when studying powerset comparison. If I want to to "cheat," I can fire up my brother's account with some emp defender on autofollow spamming me with heal other, fortitude and the two RAs. (Yes, there are ways to set more than one power on auto, but they aren't even remotely legal and will get you in trouble.) I don't do this, of course, because it trashes any hope of me determining what the sets I'm using are capable of under normal circumstances.

Another example: One of the things we're trying to determine here is whether SS's aoe output is actually all it's stated to be. We all know that rage is part of that equation. If I'm going to spam myself with reds to punch up to the damage cap I can do so without bothering with rage at all. Then I don't have to deal with the rage crash at all, either.

It skews the results of the test. You're going to run out of your favored inspiration when you're mowing through a few hundred enemies on a map. You're going to end up with different tiered insps and run into situations where you don't have 3 to bind into 1.

If you want to know the max aoe output, just know it. Get your attack chain, ignore the 5% miss rate, calculate it at the damage cap, done. But that doesn't tell us much.

I want to know which set kills the most baddies in the game... not on paper.

The brute forum is the wrong place to look for that.

I am sure astute readers of the Brute forums can comprehend the difference between results that are true in theory and results that are true in game. I am also sure that astute readers of the Brute forums can comprehend which results actually mean something.