Why Flippers Ruin the Economy!
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2010-10-11 24:35 in The Market and Inventions
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And/or work on gaining r-merits/a-merits and buy them directly.|
Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
You don't have to wait. Slot SOs.
Also this isn't a single player game. Every other player in the game shares the market. And they are after the same items you want. Your options are to: Outbid them Put in what you're willing to pay and wait Or slot SOs. |
Personally I think at this point since merits can buy everything including PvP and Purple recipes complainers about the market aren't worth the bother to educate. I just laugh at them as I get everything I want.
total kick to the gut
This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.
I am currently doing this with Kinetic Weapon but just for the badge. I never understood why ppl do this with salvage when there is real inf to be made.
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Me too|
Originally Posted by KnG
I am currently doing this with Kinetic Weapon but just for the badge. I never understood why ppl do this with salvage when there is real inf to be made.
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Until last night I was doing this with ceramic armor plates. I am still dancing on air over how much inf I was able to make buying high and selling really high. 170 mil in 4 days and 3 of the 1000 sales badges.
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Originally Posted by EarthWyrm
I can't believe, with all your talk of strawmen, that this is your summative statement. "Experiment" does not even begin to describe this effort. There can be no control over an environment such as the CoH markets sufficient to engage in a true experimental design. The fact that somebody else stuffed it full of straw does not stop it from being a strawman that you're attacking. It seems at best disingenuous for you to continue along these lines.
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I'm not the one labeling this as an experiment of any significance.
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Originally Posted by EarthWyrm
Does anyone expect true experimental research to be able to be accomplished in a chaotic system with a multitude of uncontrolled and uncontrollable variables, which include but are not limited to people who get their jollies out of mucking around with the market?
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Well...Yeah, it could be done. Alot of hinging factors involved, but yeah. A valid attempt could be made.
Then why don't you try it. Or are you afraid that you'll prove yourself wrong?
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Yup, forgot about them.|
Originally Posted by SwellGuy
And/or work on gaining r-merits/a-merits and buy them directly.
Personally I think at this point since merits can buy everything including PvP and Purple recipes complainers about the market aren't worth the bother to educate. I just laugh at them as I get everything I want. |
A-Merits have made getting what you want ridiculously EASY.
I've been combining that with AE missions and am nearing my SIXTH billionaire toon.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
BTW, every so often, we see two transactions, one for a really small price, one for a really large price, and someone says it's proof that it was a flipper.
In at least a few cases, it was me. I bought both of them. To use them.
If I see something with few bids and a few for sale, I'm going to place my first bid at a low number. Then I'm gonna place a larger bid.
I have bought two of a recipe, one for 1,234, and one for 1,234,567. There was no "flipper" buying low and selling high. There was a single person, buying two things, and bid creeping.
Same for salvage. I have 50M inf. I just checked a character who'd been sitting on stacks of bids, and whaddya know, I have 4 kismet +6% accuracy procs, all 25 or lower. I need at least 4 each of a bunch of salvage. I run through the list, bidding 1234 on all the commons. I probably get some. I leave those bids up while I bid on the others, because sometimes more fill. At the end of the process, whatever's left, I bid-creep a digit at a time -- 12,345 and then 123,456. OMG FLIPPERS ARE MULTIPLYING PRICES BY TEN!!!!!
So the one thing we've seen that someone presented as "evidence" of a flipper, well, it wasn't evidence of a flipper, because we now know that it is also something that happens, fairly often, when people are crafting a bunch of enhancements.
Which might happen, say, after they just trick-or-treated from 12 to 22 or something.
Just last week impervium armor end/rech was selling at 5 million and now it's at 30 million , it must be the ebil flippers! Stop them !
I am an ebil markeeter and will steal your moneiz ...correction stole your moneiz. I support keeping the poor down because it is impossible to make moneiz in this game.
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No, but you're attacking it as such, when it's obvious that there's clearly not a true experimental methodology being employed. I stand by my statement that this makes your criticisms, at best, disingenuous, and that you are attacking something that you have to recognize as a strawman while criticizing people of strawman arguments right and left.|
Originally Posted by Alkirin
I'm not the one labeling this as an experiment of any significance.
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The author made full disclosure of methodology. There was no intent to mislead. If you insist on going after the semantic argument, that says more about you than it does about the quality of the exercise conducted.
My postings to this forum are not to be used as data in any research study without my express written consent.
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Bid creeping for the wealthy: going up by a factor of 10. |
Originally Posted by seebs
I run through the list, bidding 1234 on all the commons. I probably get some. I leave those bids up while I bid on the others, because sometimes more fill. At the end of the process, whatever's left, I bid-creep a digit at a time -- 12,345 and then 123,456.
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Paragon City Search And Rescue
The Mentor Project
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You want me to flip and/or corner a piece of common salvage and show how prices can be raised as a result?|
Originally Posted by Arbegla
Then why don't you try it. Or are you afraid that you'll prove yourself wrong?
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Might want to think on this one.
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Originally Posted by EarthWyrm
No, but you're attacking it as such, when it's obvious that there's clearly not a true experimental methodology being employed. I stand by my statement that this makes your criticisms, at best, disingenuous, and that you are attacking something that you have to recognize as a strawman while criticizing people of strawman arguments right and left.
The author made full disclosure of methodology. There was no intent to mislead. If you insist on going after the semantic argument, that says more about you than it does about the quality of the exercise conducted. |
I actually conceded this point somewhat earlier in the thread.
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Originally Posted by Alkirin
Throughout the thread, you dance about the direct assertion without actually stating it in order to retain a plausible denial. Which is fine. I accept that. If you aren't making any assertions, then my claim doesn't apply to you. That aside, the experiment is nice but otherwise unremarkable.
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If there's honestly nothing of significance being claimed or implied, then my criticism is misplaced.
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Originally Posted by Alkirin
You want me to flip and/or corner a piece of common salvage and show how prices can be raised as a result?
Might want to think on this one. |
Yes, thats exactly what i want you to do. and do it for a week, and then check back a week after your done flipping, and see if your raised prices actually stay raised. I'm willing to bet they dont.
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I'm willing to guarantee they don't, absent some sort of contributing outside event (ToT mobs not dropping salvage, etc). |
Originally Posted by Arbegla
Yes, thats exactly what i want you to do. and do it for a week, and then check back a week after your done flipping, and see if your raised prices actually stay raised. I'm willing to bet they dont.
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Also, see Smurphy's Challenge.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
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Originally Posted by Alkirin
You want me to flip and/or corner a piece of common salvage and show how prices can be raised as a result?
Might want to think on this one. |
I don't know what you think this would prove.
But, If you are going to do this, figure you have to spend between 20 and 50 million to wipe out the existing salvage. That's what Chaos Creator and TRTerror spent on destroying ceramic armor plates. After you do that, you are going to have to set a high bid, and maintain at least 100 of them at all times. You will have to check in at least hourly, closer to half hourly refresh your bids, and sweep for people in below your selling price. You will also have to get a little lucky on picking your selling price, you need one that most of the people going for the big bucks will list above, but something the buy it now people will bid comfortably above.
I don't know if it can be done easier or better but that was my experience with ceramic armor plates. After Chaos and TR destroyed the supply I jumped in and started buying them for between 10 and 12 thousand inf a piece and selling them for 67 thousand inf. I did this until tuesday evening and made a little short of 200 million inf doing it. It was probably the worst experience I have ever had making inf in the game and I can't imagine wanting to repeat it or anyone wanting to go to the trouble.
tl/dr:
Disrupting salvage is easy, profiting from the disruption is much harder.
=D
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
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Originally Posted by Nethergoat
tl/dr:
Disrupting salvage is easy, profiting from the disruption is much harder. =D |
This.
One does not go into disrupting salvage with hopes of making a profit, at least not common anyway.
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This. Totally. Making money on this sort of thing is beyond my abilities. Which isn't to say it isn't possible, but it sure seems to be a lot harder than the other money making strategies I've played around with.
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Originally Posted by Nethergoat
tl/dr:
Disrupting salvage is easy, profiting from the disruption is much harder. =D |
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Well, nothing new. This has already been done, repeatedly. Sure, people can deny it. The people doing the disrupting (even those managing some profit from it) will comfortably sit back and laugh I figure.|
Originally Posted by B_L_Angel
I don't know what you think this would prove.
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I'll sooner expect more bar-raising fallacies in response. It's been done before. Wake has lasted for a week or more in some cases to boot. We'll see what's next.
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Originally Posted by Alkirin
Well, nothing new. This has already been done, repeatedly. Sure, people can deny it. The people doing the disrupting (even those managing some profit from it) will comfortably sit back and laugh I figure.
I'll sooner expect more bar-raising fallacies in response. It's been done before. Wake has lasted for a week or more in some cases to boot. We'll see what's next. |
And how exactly did you come to this conclusion?
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Interesting assertion.|
Originally Posted by Alkirin
Well, nothing new. This has already been done, repeatedly.
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Proof please, or is everyone just supposed to take your word for it?
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
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It wasn't hard for me. Many months ago I cornered the market in Human Blood Samples and Brass. I bought and deleted all of the cheap outstanding stock, and left enough outstanding bids up each day at 1001 to to keep the cheap stuff off the market. Other people started buying the more expensive stuff, so it mostly drained out of the Market. Then I started listing mine for just under a million. I made a half billion over a few weeks. But I stopped because it felt dirty.
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Originally Posted by Nethergoat
Disrupting salvage is easy, profiting from the disruption is much harder.
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Goodbye and thanks for all the fish.
I've moved on to Diablo 3, TopDoc-1304
Interesting! I'm impressed that this could be done. It helps, of course, that those two salvages are used in a lot of stuff...
What I don't see is how this would prevent people from buying them for more normal prices. I've seen stuff running in high price ranges, and if I leave a bid up for maybe 2k overnight, it usually fills.
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"hard" not in the sense that it's difficult, but in the sense that it's tedious and takes a (relatively) large expenditure of energy for a (relatively) minimal return.
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Originally Posted by TopDoc
It wasn't hard for me. Many months ago I cornered the market in Human Blood Samples and Brass. I bought and deleted all of the cheap outstanding stock, and left enough outstanding bids up each day at 1001 to to keep the cheap stuff off the market. Other people started buying the more expensive stuff, so it mostly drained out of the Market. Then I started listing mine for just under a million. I made a half billion over a few weeks. But I stopped because it felt dirty.
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The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
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One thing I note in all these discussion is this - the "flippers and supporters" group almost never actually answer the questions with direct facts. Here is a quite simple and revealing question posed by Alkirin. Nethergoats reply is what always occurs to such a question.|
Originally Posted by Nethergoat
the absence of flippers increases volatility in several ways, all of which I've explained in many previous threads over the years.
I'd suggest flipping something for a while. it's cheap, easy and provides a helpful primer on market forces, plus its way more entertaining than a lecture from me. =P |
I'll say that I've flipped a LOT myself. Became ridiculously rich doing it.
Based on all my observations and experiences:
- Flippers do artificially increase prices - often by incredible amounts.
- When flippers leave a niche - prices always drop down. The amount of drop and how long it takes to drop depends significantly on what tactics the flippers used. Anytime a player deletes items to lower overall supply that complicates things.
The recent example everyone quotes is the common salvage jobs. Does anyone even remotely believe that CAP's are going to stay at the 1 Million'ish level, unless a flipper is there to influence it ? I think whats happened speaks for itself.
The difference between myself I guess and a lot of "marketeers" is that I dont pretend flipping is "beneficial", "has no effect", "does not impact the casual player", etc etc.
In reality it does the main thing everybody hates it for. Artificially, and often dramatically, inflates prices on the items "being worked". And when flipping is removed, yes, prices drop.
Am I reading a lot of this right and people are actually saying that does not happen ??? Who do you really think you are fooling ?
ROFL
Over the hills and through the woods.
Frankly, although the A-Merit system is an improvement, I wish most of the 1 A-Merit items (or maybe just all or most of the 50 R-Merit items) were available from a vendor for Influence.
It's a GAME. Why should it be reinforcing lessons I learned in kindergarten that I apply constantly in stressful situations IRL? Is that fun?
Also this isn't a single player game. Every other player in the game shares the market. And they are after the same items you want.
Your options are to:
Outbid them
Put in what you're willing to pay and wait
Or slot SOs.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!