Quote:
Once again, "weighted" and "random" are not somehow mutually exclusive. |
Originally Posted by Lothic
Here's the classic problem with trying to apply a generic definition to a MMO game. You're forgetting the key thing here: The Devs are using a RNG to come up with a purely "random" number but they are using that number to choose a drop from a WEIGHTED table. This allows the Devs to claim it's all random while still controlling the drop rate as they see fit.
 |
Most of our characters at level 50 have a 95% chance to hit foes, if we can help it. That does not mean that our hit rolls, and thus our chance to miss, are not random*. It means that the number we roll is random, and that the outcome is heavily weighted in our favor.
There is no confusion over MMO-specific use of terms in the post you quoted. The confusion seems to be this odd misconception that random implies equally likely outcomes.
* Where "random" in this case means pseudo-random, which for practical purposes is going to appear truly random as far as we players can determine, unless the devs either don't use a good RNG algorithm, or fail to use a good one properly. Such misapplication of a good RNG has happened before, specifically with the bug allowing specific spawns to be found that always dropped a recipe in maps with hand-placed spawns.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Quote:
Sorry, I have never claimed they were not random. I do think it is set up to be a lot less random than people think it is; and this goes for many other recipe pools as well, and these things are at least partially mandated by what AT you are playing at the time. If all things within a given pool had an equal chance to drop, my tank would probably see way fewer Confuse sets than he does. Meanwhile my Mind Dom gets Taunt recipes all over the place. Hmmmm...! Or not. | Like your claim that purple drops aren't random? |
My contention is that a few sets of purple IOs are weighed to drop with extreme frequency; and within those sets, two or three recipies are almost always what drops. I want to say that one of them is Fortunata Hypnosis acc/rech? Something like that. I think I have four of that one recipe spread amongst my people.
This causes me to think "less random." I am not saying they are "not random." Just "less random."
Quote:
I remember when Evil Ryu was dead certain that ALL he ever got from TF rolls were Trap of the Hunter recipes.|
Originally Posted by Bad_Influence
Sorry, I have never claimed they were not random. I do think it is set up to be a lot less random than people think it is; and this goes for many other recipe pools as well, and these things are at least partially mandated by what AT you are playing at the time. If all things within a given pool had an equal chance to drop, my tank would probably see way fewer Confuse sets than he does. Meanwhile my Mind Dom gets Taunt recipes all over the place. Hmmmm...! Or not.
|
He started a thread in the market forum to track what people *actually got* from their TF rolls. Lots of people joined in the fun, Ryu posted all the recipes he got, and after a while it became clear even to the most hardened conspiracy theorist that the TF drops were......random.
Ryu was sure all he got was garbage because all he REMEMBERED getting was garbage. When he started collecting hard data that all changed.
It's not often I ask people to emulate Ryu, but following his example in this case would do you some good.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
Quote:
They are not only allowed to do that by virtue of being the devs; they can do it by virtue of that being the actual definition of random. There is nothing even slightly misleading about it.
|
Originally Posted by Lothic
Sure you could complain that the Devs are cheating or being devious by "misleading" us like that.
But remember they are the Devs... they're allowed to do that here.  |
Quote:
Speaking of Ryu, where'd that lovable scamp run off to?
|
Originally Posted by Nethergoat
I remember when Evil Ryu was dead certain that ALL he ever got from TF rolls were Trap of the Hunter recipes.
He started a thread in the market forum to track what people *actually got* from their TF rolls. Lots of people joined in the fun, Ryu posted all the recipes he got, and after a while it became clear even to the most hardened conspiracy theorist that the TF drops were......random. Ryu was sure all he got was garbage because all he REMEMBERED getting was garbage. When he started collecting hard data that all changed. It's not often I ask people to emulate Ryu, but following his example in this case would do you some good. |
@macskull, @Not Mac | XBL: macskull | Steam: macskull | Skype: macskull
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
Quote:
I completely agree. Ultimately I was stressing the key point that some people are mistakenly assuming that "random" in this game must mean that a set of things are EQUALLY likely to happen.|
Originally Posted by rsclark
They are not only allowed to do that by virtue of being the devs; they can do it by virtue of that being the actual definition of random. There is nothing even slightly misleading about it.
|
There is an obvious difference (at least to me) between something that is UNIFORMLY random and something that NON-UNIFORMLY random (a.k.a. weighted). There is no rule that says drops like Purple drops MUST be uniformly random in this or any other game. To the people complaining that's somehow "unfair" or "misleading" I'd once again point out that the Devs, being the Devs, can basically set it up any way they want.
Loth 50 Fire/Rad Controller [1392 Badges] [300 non-AE Souvenirs]
Ryver 50 Ele� Blaster [1392 Badges]
Silandra 50 Peacebringer [1138 Badges] [No Redside Badges]
--{=====> Virtue ♀
Quote:
As others have said, 'weighted' and 'random' are not incompatible. We have been told flat-out by the devs that random recipe drops are weighted by usefulness. For example, almost anyone can use ranged damage so it drops a lot more often than sleep recipes.|
Originally Posted by Bad_Influence
Sorry, I have never claimed they were not random. I do think it is set up to be a lot less random than people think it is; and this goes for many other recipe pools as well, and these things are at least partially mandated by what AT you are playing at the time.
|
And it has NOTHING to do with what AT you are playing.
As I recall, this was specifically in reference to regular drops. I don't recall any statements about purple drops being weighted or not.
Paragon City Search And Rescue
The Mentor Project
Quote:
I spotted him earlier in the I19 discussion thread!
|
Originally Posted by macskull
Speaking of Ryu, where'd that lovable scamp run off to?
|
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
Quote:
Devs; Ebil-est marketeers of them all. |
Originally Posted by Lothic
To the people complaining that's somehow "unfair" or "misleading" I'd once again point out that the Devs, being the Devs, can basically set it up any way they want.
|
"My inner mind has become a reality-cracking overgod. He torments me! Help!"
I got 1 yesterday, Vill 3rd respec, team of 4, Malta. Hecatomb
Last 2 from doing Cimerora Sis Arlia's mission. About 10 missions. 1 Confuse, 1 Immob
I run +0 x8 or +1 x8.
1 from ITF about 1 month ago.
4 from TV Lib around i17 week. My friend got 7 in 2 weeks of farming TV Lib. How often? A lot.
Quote:
Actually, as far as we know, drop weighting only applies to random rolls you can make at vendors, such as R-Merit and AE Ticket rolls. I believe we were told directly that weighting was not applied to any mob drops, which would include purples.|
Originally Posted by Ironblade
And it has NOTHING to do with what AT you are playing.
As I recall, this was specifically in reference to regular drops. I don't recall any statements about purple drops being weighted or not. |
Since that time, extremely rare pool C/D drops were added to bosses. I don't think anyone knows if any weighting is applied to their drop table.
I would hope/assume that such weighting applies to A-Merit random rolls bought from the A-Merit vendors. Of course purples aren't included in those rolls anyhow.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Quote:
...And to be fair, I also remember a time when Crap of the Hunter [as some loveable wag dubbed it] seemed to be falling like rain! Just about every time I did a TF, a CotH was what dropped as final reward, as if the set bonuses it bestowed were the awesomest things ever. This was a long time ago, as in over a year. And it did get QUITE old.| I remember when Evil Ryu was dead certain that ALL he ever got from TF rolls were Trap of the Hunter recipes. |
I don't see CoTH much these days, thankfully. It has been replaced by several successors, most recently the new FotM: temp power recipes. Woot. Or... not.
Quote:
| someone else: I completely agree. Ultimately I was stressing the key point that some people are mistakenly assuming that "random" in this game must mean that a set of things are EQUALLY likely to happen. |
forumite 1: Why am I getting so many Crap of the Hunters?! Sick of it.
forumite 2: All recipies are random. You are only *imagining* you are getting a metric crapton of Crap.
When the word "random" is used, unless qualifiers are used it looks to the reader like "randomly equal chance to happen." Randomly equal chance to happen is quite clearly NOT what we see in the game, related to either salvage or recipes. But I think a lot of people don't like admitting that.
Mmmm....
I would dare say, that yes Purple drop rates have indeed been reduced. Not because they have been directly reduced, but they have been reduced for there are more things to have awarded as a drop; thus the odds of getting one has diminished.
Also one must consider, that random, is not quite random as one would think. The odds are weighted, so despite of random, the odds of getting a particular result are far from equal.
When they added the ability to get temp power recipes, a range of possible rolls had to be established so they could be awarded to the unlucky winner. As a result the other drops such as salvage, inspirations, common recipies, rare recipies, purples and what not had to be adjusted to make room for the new kid in town.
It seems rather obvious the odds are stackd in favor in getting inspirations, followed by salvage. When it gt to recipies, the next tier, the odds to get a temp power is actually pretty wide, the its followed by the white, yellow, red and purple recipe odds.
Since the introduction of those cursed temp powers, my rate of acquiring any other recipes have dramatically dropped.
Hugs
Stormy
Ps: I wish temp power recipes would go away, and be solely acquirable thru Arena vendors and the like.
Quote:
The only things that those temp powers recipes might be taking away from is the costume piece recipes, as I suspect they were put into the same pool. They are independent of the regular pool A drops, and of Purple drops, and I showed proof of it on the very first page of this very thread.
|
Originally Posted by Stormfront_NA
Mmmm....
I would dare say, that yes Purple drop rates have indeed been reduced. Not because they have been directly reduced, but they have been reduced for there are more things to have awarded as a drop; thus the odds of getting one has diminished. Also one must consider, that random, is not quite random as one would think. The odds are weighted, so despite of random, the odds of getting a particular result are far from equal. When they added the ability to get temp power recipes, a range of possible rolls had to be established so they could be awarded to the unlucky winner. As a result the other drops such as salvage, inspirations, common recipies, rare recipies, purples and what not had to be adjusted to make room for the new kid in town. It seems rather obvious the odds are stackd in favor in getting inspirations, followed by salvage. When it gt to recipies, the next tier, the odds to get a temp power is actually pretty wide, the its followed by the white, yellow, red and purple recipe odds. Since the introduction of those cursed temp powers, my rate of acquiring any other recipes have dramatically dropped. Hugs Stormy Ps: I wish temp power recipes would go away, and be solely acquirable thru Arena vendors and the like. |
"I wish my life was a non-stop Hollywood movie show,
A fantasy world of celluloid villains and heroes."
I got two purples the other day in two different 10 minute play sessions. Yeah, I don't think the drop rate has changed.
[U][URL="http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=251594"][/URL][/U]
Chances of getting purples in WW are 100% if you have enough inf. Increase your chance of drops by solo farming. Tfs are fun but shouldnt be done in hopes of purps. The more peeps on the team, the less your odds.
Quote:
No, it hasn't. I'm pretty sure this has been stated in other threads where you have discussed this. Temp powers are in a separate drop pool from IO recipes. Each drop pool has it's own drop check. You can get both an IO recipe and a temp power recipe from defeating the same mob.
|
Originally Posted by Stormfront_NA
Since the introduction of those cursed temp powers, my rate of acquiring any other recipes have dramatically dropped.
|
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Quote:
That's doubly ridiculous.|
Originally Posted by Bad_Influence
When the word "random" is used, unless qualifiers are used it looks to the reader like "randomly equal chance to happen." Randomly equal chance to happen is quite clearly NOT what we see in the game, related to either salvage or recipes. But I think a lot of people don't like admitting that.
|
Second, when it comes to ticket and TF random rolls, the devs actually weighted it towards things more of us do want. So yes, those are weighted, but generally in our favor.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
The conspiracy theories in this thread are delicious.
Quote:
If only there were some marketears for dessert.
|
Originally Posted by Camper
The conspiracy theories in this thread are delicious.
|
Paragon City Search And Rescue
The Mentor Project
Quote:
I don't think, you understand, what I was trying to convey...|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
No, it hasn't. I'm pretty sure this has been stated in other threads where you have discussed this. Temp powers are in a separate drop pool from IO recipes. Each drop pool has it's own drop check. You can get both an IO recipe and a temp power recipe from defeating the same mob.
|
Using your own words... "Temp powers are in a separate drop pool from IO recipes"
got it, never doubted it...
Now when you defeat a mob, there has to be a roll to decide if you win something or it all was for nothing.
If the roll goes, ding, ding, you won something. Don't a means or roll has to be done to determine what exactly had been won? Does this not strike you as a logical thing to do?
Before the temps, there had to be a roll to decide if you got an enhancement, and inspiration, or a recipe. If you won a recipe, then another roll would had to be made to determine if you got a costume piece or very common recipe, or common recipe, or rare recipe or a purple, similarly if you had won say an inspiration, it would stand to reason, that a roll would be needed to determine if it a tier 1 or 2 or 3 inspiration has been won.
When the temp powers were introduced, somehow a roll has to be made to determine now if you got a costume piece, " A TEMP POWER", a very common recipe, common recipe, rare recipe or purple. The fact that a roll to choose from 6 choices, when before it was only 5, should be obvious to anyone that somehow all the percentage ranges for the other 5 choices besides temp powers had to be reduced to make room for the chance to win a temp power instead. That is what I am talking about.
Stormy
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
That's doubly ridiculous. |
Ha ha ha, I can't wait to get my next pacing of the turtle or trap of the hunter....
Stormy
Incorrect. At least in part.
Each pool - Inspirations, regular invention recipes (which then check for common, uncommon, Rare, and Ultra Rare), costume recipes, enhancements, salvage - is checked for a drop independently of each other. It is not a "Do we give a drop : Y/N; if Y, which kind?" It's collection of:
Enhancement : Y/N
Reg. Invention Recipe : Y/N
Costume : Y/N
etc.
If the temps are indeed their own pool, they should also check independently of regular invention recipes.
http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Quinfecta
Orc&Pie No.53230 There is an orc, and somehow, he got a pie. And you are hungry.
www.repeat-offenders.net
Negaduck: I see you found the crumb. I knew you'd never notice the huge flag.
Quote:
One roll is made to see if you win a Temp power or a costume piece|
Originally Posted by Stormfront_NA
When the temp powers were introduced, somehow a roll has to be made to determine now if you got a costume piece, " A TEMP POWER", a very common recipe, common recipe, rare recipe or purple.
|
A completely different roll is made to see if you win a "a very common recipe, common recipe, rare recipe or purple. "
That's what is meant by being in a different drop pool. The addition of temp powers had no impact on the drops of IO recipes.
Global @StarGeek
ParagonWiki.com-The original is still the best!
My Hero Merit rolls
Accuracy needed for 95% ToHit spreadsheet
Forum font change stripper for Firefox/Opera/Chrome. No more dealing with poor color choices, weird fonts or microscopic text
Search Wiki Patch notes, add site:ParagonWiki.com inurl:patch_notes to your Google Search
Paragon City Search And Rescue
The Mentor Project