Not much has changed in a year
By
Ael Rhiana,
Posted on: 2010-08-27 09:40 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
New and 'Free' in the past year:
http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Issue_16
http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Issue_17
http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Issue_18
http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Halloween_Event/Deadly_Apocalypse
http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Lord_Winter
New and Extra Fee in the past year:
http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Going_Rogue
paragonwiki.com/wiki/Super_Booster_III:_Superscience
paragonwiki.com/wiki/Super_Booster_IV:_Martial_Arts
paragonwiki.com/wiki/Super_Booster_V:_Mutant
Speeding Through New DA Repeatables || Spreadsheet o' Enhancements || Zombie Skins: better skins for these forums || Guide to Guides
I took a break from the game as well, only recently returning. Super sidekicking/exemplaring is absolutely the best thing to happen to the game. It's an amazing system that i'm sure other games will pinch (makes the teaming options in Champions Online look even more pathetic)
And OP, how exactly are you going to play all of those games you could have bought if you can't even run ultra mode on CoH?
So "I left City of Heroes, came back and it was City of Heroes"? Is that roughly the summary of the OP's complaint?
Mini-guides: Force Field Defenders, Blasters, Market Self-Defense, Frankenslotting.
So you think you're a hero, huh.
@Boltcutter in game.
I don't agree. I was gona for a year, while still being subbed though and now just came back and saw what I was missing all that time, so much to do!!
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well, i'll devil's advocate here. his complaint is that the game has not progressed as much as he would like. I'd say he probably had an unreasonable expectation, though its hard to tell because he doesnt really explain much, but i can see his point, even if i disagree, differnet strokes and such. now him trying to doom us with the "other" game, well, we saw most of the same stuff last year around that time, its just a stupid and childish way of making a point.
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Originally Posted by Fulmens
So "I left City of Heroes, came back and it was City of Heroes"? Is that roughly the summary of the OP's complaint?
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I am thinking he's like me and a few others, who expected GR and everything else that was spent towards making Praetoria, would have gone to Paragon City and the Rogue Isles.
For example, the 6 new zones, 8 new factions, dozens new new tilesets, hundreds of new missions, and the amount of time creating the backstory and other things - what if all that Praetorian-exclusive effort went to improving/updating/evolving the existing "Primal Earth" instead of creating essentially a new section of the game which is now Praetoria?
My initial beef with Praetoria, once I learned about it, was similar to what I experienced when I first learned that CoV was essentially going to have several new zones, etc, all essentially exclusive to villains. At the time there ended up being two different games, with crossover, instead of being one game and a lot more content for just it. Now there is Praetoria, and it's much the same in that you start out there, and that's separate from the others, and further splitting up the playerbase now between 3 different sections of the larger overall game.
Now, I've come to terms with this occurring, and from what I am hearing, down the line heroes and villains will be able to visit Praetoria (though in what capacity, I don't know), as well as this section of the overall game going through updates and upgrades over time. But my own experiences in a previous MMO called Everquest has made me very gunshy of MMO expansion.
I started playing EQ shortly after it came out, and there were a few expansions to the game, and over time, there ended up being something close to 500 zones created - even when the playerbase was shrinking, and moving to other more advanced MMO's, most of the remaining players ended up gravitating to relatively few zones, and much of the effort expanding the world ended up being, really, a waste of effort. The lifespan of an MMO isn't great, and even the great ones will lose their edge over time.
My biggest concern for this game is, given the fact the playerbase is decreasing over time, I am worried that so much effort is spent fractionating the playerbase between added zones, and increased "sections" of the game like the Rogue Isles, Praetoria, that it will make it a) harder for the existing player base to group with others, and b) aid in the process of driving some players away.
I hope that more effort is spent in the future, allowing these 3 worlds to converge, and allow more ways for the playerbase to be together - as well as improving the overall game. Instead of adding significantly more zones to this game. It would also be something to consider, to consolidate and revamp some zones, using the existing technology. The 3 Shadow Shard zones. Atlas Park and Galaxy City. Maybe even Port Oakes and Cap Au Diable.
Between optimizing geometry, using higher-res textures, improving the design of some things (for example, Grandville is a mess), it can help to modernize this game over time. Just something to think about. 
All things in good time, Rooftop. The playerbase has been astonishingly stable over the last 6 years - and frankly it's been 2 weeks and the servers are STILL packed. That's a good sign for every part of this game. Older players coming back on board, new players coming to experience it for the first time.
The renovation of zones isn't as cut and dried as you might want it to be. Imagine if you will, they "redo" Kings Row.
What happens to the mission doors that *are still in use with characters that happen to be offline* there? It happened that way in Faultline - remember when the old SG portal led into the donut shop?
I don't think that the new stuff has in any way "split the player base" up any further than it already was - COV was never really separate for most folks I know, certainly not for me.
I don't think that comparing the very few, very good zones we've got, with the disaster of EQ's spread... Plus, by the time EQ had that kind of spread, they also had released it's very own competition in EQ2. COH on the other hand has been around and continues to be the 'safe haven' for players who leave and then realize that the new shiny they've been suckered into for a couple months isn't NEARLY as good as they wanted it to be. After all, COH is a very, very fun game, and set a high bar in many ways for other games to compete with.
So far as I know, none have really succeeded in the same way as here.
But I agree: optimization, new textures and the like are needed badly on both sides of the game. I'm pretty sure they're on their way, but it's certainly not a 'let's just drop all this stuff new' because of the existing issues.
When the Auction Houses went up - recall they have those spare doors in some spots? Because they couldn't remove them, they were mission doors that may still have been tied to player access. Same thing with the AE buildings - some mobs still simply moved straight into them, because their pathing hadn't been thought out.
So... not so easy. Needed? Yes. But I think we REALLY needed Praetoria - something actually NEW, something completely unlike what's been in the game, for the first time in ages.
Please read my FEAR/Portal/HalfLife Fan Fiction!
Repurposed
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I'm not convinced. A quick internet search on MMO costs pulls up information that inndicates hosting an MMO is less than $1 per month per user. I paid $30 for Going Rogue, so all the new Going Rogue content doesn't count as new content paid for by subscription fees. I also paid for the Martial Arts pack, etc. everything except the Mutant Pack.|
Originally Posted by Chase_Arcanum
Well, since you seem to assume that all that money is directly available for just continued development, some budget info from a few published sources:
(these are estimates from memory, part from this older book IIRC, part adjusted for subsequent updates made in conference or online. I'm using broad numbers here from memory for expedience) ...of every $15 subscription - About $4-8 goes to bandwidth costs and hosting operations-- the devs don't get a "unlimited access to the internet"deal for $40 like we might. --About $1-3 more is recommended for customer support costs, including basic bugfixing, depending on product stability --About $1.50-3 is lost to payment processing, offsetting fraudulent charges, and staffing efforts associated with credit card and fraud issues. Financial fraud is HUGE for mmo's and the card processors really hike up their fees for this business. IIRC, the book noted this around $1.50, but there's been much said online regarding costs here doubling or tripling in the last half decade What's left might be split between paying back the initial investment and continued development. As for what's happened in a year: - specific CONTENT was slim, until the expansion to be honest. Some story arcs and task forces, but the lion's share was probably Going Rogue. Going Rogue added a lot (150+ tip missions, 4 good sized tracks of content for level 1-20 in Praetoria, Cathedral of Pain, etc) -tech-wise there's been a good deal- and tech is by far the costliest and riskiest to add. We have the new doppleganger tech, ai's capable of a broader powerset range, powerset customization, supersidekicking revision, ultramode, new mission mechanics, Architect enhancements, alignment system, market UI revamp, etc. -no new archetypes, but powersets tend to offer more variety within archetypes than most other MMO's. Other MMO's often add an archetype that's more of a variation of an existing AT, whereas the devs here can get the same overall effect by adding a powerset into an existing archetype. The devs had added some more powersets in that timeframe- two rounds of proliferation, IIRC |
When you look at "free" new content from the subscription fees, there is not that much. At 100,000 players paying $15 per month that's $1.5 million per month revenue. If they even spent a third of that on new development it would pay for a team of ten full time programmers and artists each making $50,000 a year. You're telling me that ten professional game staff, working full time for a year, could only come up with four new powersets, a few new costumes, and a couple dozen new missions? Don't count the Going Rogue stuff I told you I already paid separate for that.
CoH is a great game, but you can't just play the same stuff over and over forever. There has to be new stuff coming out all the time. You guys are too easily satisfied, I think.
LOL, judge people much?
I am not satisfied easily, and I never have been. I've been here almost 5 years now.
Like the old saying goes: "You can't please everyone."
"Certain it is and sure: love burns, ale burns, fire burns, politics burns, but cold were life without them." - Romulan proverb
My Characters
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post links to where you got that info please, that sounds like you are lowblalling it. also, honestly, looking at what generally comes with other game's expansions, im not sure where you are coming from, i follow several other mmos as well as this one and outside of one that has a exponentially larger budget, this amount of content is in-line. even the gorilla has only released one new "archetype" in 6 years, so i wouldn't say that we are easily pleased so much as we adjust our expectations rationally based on what the rest of the market is able to do, not based on slightly suspect extrapolation of raw financial numbers. also, i think you are drastically underselling the amount of work needed for some of the new tech added like cloning, power customization, animation customization, and architect. These were not merely switches flipped. id love more missions, but if its between new maps for me to go through spawns of 3-6 enemies grouped at preset intervals over and over, or new tech that simply is not existent in any other major mmo on the market at present. maybe a tech investment was not a comparatively bad investment.
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Originally Posted by HeroJunkie
I'm not convinced. A quick internet search on MMO costs pulls up information that inndicates hosting an MMO is less than $1 per month per user. I paid $30 for Going Rogue, so all the new Going Rogue content doesn't count as new content paid for by subscription fees. I also paid for the Martial Arts pack, etc. everything except the Mutant Pack.
When you look at "free" new content from the subscription fees, there is not that much. At 100,000 players paying $15 per month that's $1.5 million per month revenue. If they even spent a third of that on new development it would pay for a team of ten full time programmers and artists each making $50,000 a year. You're telling me that ten professional game staff, working full time for a year, could only come up with four new powersets, a few new costumes, and a couple dozen new missions? Don't count the Going Rogue stuff I told you I already paid separate for that. CoH is a great game, but you can't just play the same stuff over and over forever. There has to be new stuff coming out all the time. You guys are too easily satisfied, I think. |
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Oh boy.|
Originally Posted by HeroJunkie
I'm not convinced. A quick internet search on MMO costs pulls up information that inndicates hosting an MMO is less than $1 per month per user. I paid $30 for Going Rogue, so all the new Going Rogue content doesn't count as new content paid for by subscription fees. I also paid for the Martial Arts pack, etc. everything except the Mutant Pack.
When you look at "free" new content from the subscription fees, there is not that much. At 100,000 players paying $15 per month that's $1.5 million per month revenue. If they even spent a third of that on new development it would pay for a team of ten full time programmers and artists each making $50,000 a year. You're telling me that ten professional game staff, working full time for a year, could only come up with four new powersets, a few new costumes, and a couple dozen new missions? Don't count the Going Rogue stuff I told you I already paid separate for that. CoH is a great game, but you can't just play the same stuff over and over forever. There has to be new stuff coming out all the time. You guys are too easily satisfied, I think. |
- City, state, and federal taxes.
- Accounting and payroll services.
- Advertising.
- Internet access.
- Phone systems.
- Travel expenses.
- Employee hiring services.
- Employee salaries.
- Rent.
- Legal fees.
- Health insurance.
- Dental insurance.
- 401ks.
- Utilities (power, gas, water, heating & cooling).
- Grounds maintenance.
- Office supplies.
- Computer hardware and software (including internal networks and development systems).
- Offsite backup of source code.
- Ongoing licensing deals with Cryptic & others.
A software company isn't just about maintaining the hosting service. That $15 a month gets split across a wide variety of costs, and I'm willing to wager that you are mind-bogglingly unaware of the vast majority of them.
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I played another MMO that came out a couple of years ago that had a character class called a Disciple. Was basically a Monk with less dps and heals/buffs. Could do certain combo's to heal a friendly target, itself or the group all the while dealing damage and maintaining buffs or debuffs. Was a really fun class to play.
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Originally Posted by LISAR
Actually a buff/melee for Praetorian only new characters would have been sweet.
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Furio--Lvl 50+3 Fire/Fire/Fire Blaster, Virtue
Megadeth--Lvl 50+3 Necro/DM/Soul MM, Virtue
Veriandros--Lvl 50+3 Crab Soldier, Virtue
"So come and get me! I'll be waiting for ye, with a whiff of the old brimstone. I'm a grim bloody fable, with an unhappy bloody end!" Demoman, TF2
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Or maybe we're just right, and the devs have gauged us accurately. Just because you're not happy with the game doesn't mean it's doing poorly or the customers are unhappy.|
Originally Posted by HeroJunkie
CoH is a great game, but you can't just play the same stuff over and over forever. There has to be new stuff coming out all the time. You guys are too easily satisfied, I think.
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You might as well say something similar to WoW players: "But everyone looks the same, aside from the equipment! You guys are too easily satisfied, I think."
Paragon City Search And Rescue
The Mentor Project
If you really enjoy nothing from the last year of development there is a high probability you are not the target audience for the product.
Its a whole new game for me. I am able to experience content that i still after 57 months of playing havent done yet, yes its the redside content! Now though, im exploring the redside on my vigs and even created my very first widow to become a rogue too.
To me, its no longer a CoH and a CoV game, its now one game. Dont know how its like on your servers now, but on ours we have people advertising a lot more for taskforces/events that didnt used to get played an awfull lot. Now people want to use their "other side" characters to do them, badge related more than likely but probably just to see how an AT like that handles it too. I know im looking at doing my very first SF soon on my scrapper 
@Damz Find me on the global channel Union Chat. One of the best "chat channels" ingame!
funny thing damz. last week, liberty, despite having much higher population, our mothership raid was less well attended, everybody was in praetoria. overall thoug, yeah pops gone nuts, i'm glad its holding so far.
It's 7am my time and Freedom and Virtue are in the yellow. Just logged on with a Brute and solo'd a mission real quick. Personally, I am happy with the developments in the game - so long as they lead to more integration among players. I don't mind essentially having more "starter zones" as long as the end goal is to get more players to group with each other over time.
I'm not against making new zones here and there, but I think the focus needs to be more on revamping existing zones. For example, if Kings Row was redone - who cares about locations of doors for existing missions? It's one piece of errata which has next to no impact on things.
I consider WoW the true successor of EQ, because they went to great efforts to learn from the mistakes that were made there - something I think even EQ2 didn't quite learn, and didn't adapt until too late. I believe other MMO developers have learned from those mistakes as well, including Cryptic and Paragon Studios, but that isn't to say they haven't still made mistakes in this new day and age. MMO's are a developing genre, just as FPS's and others.
And while I think Paragon Studios has their act together, I don't think they are above constructive criticism, and I just hope they keep focusing on bringing players together, as I truly believe that is the biggest factor in keeping this game relevant - even above the importance of issuing new content over time. That content has to be well-placed. Not everyone can be happy - that's impossible, but the goal is to get as many people as possible, regardless.
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While I think that the OP is a troll, I also think this is a fair criticism, presented in a thoughtful, non-trollish manner. Gotta respect that.|
Originally Posted by Rooftop_Raider
I'm not against making new zones here and there, but I think the focus needs to be more on revamping existing zones. For example, if Kings Row was redone - who cares about locations of doors for existing missions? It's one piece of errata which has next to no impact on things.
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The one thing I was a bit disappointed in with Going Rogue is that the old zones didn't get the "ultra mode" treatment. I would absolutely love it if, over the next year or so, they spend at least one or even two issues focusing on revamping existing art and content instead of adding new stuff. I'd love to see Boomtown starting to be rebuilt, Faultline progressing even further (maybe even a big push to officially rename the zone back to "Overbrook"), new ultra mode textures rolled out to at least the starting hero and villain zones, etc.
We've been saving Paragon City for eight and a half years. It's time to do it one more time.
(If you love this game as much as I do, please read that post.)
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Personally, I'd question the point of doing a sub-20 revamp (blue-side in general) if you're not going to be able to do it entirely in a pass. Currently, Praetoria is so much better of an experience that it really won't see much use, I feel. The reason I suggest blue-side specifically, if that the walls should come down, but they really can't come down with the neighbors being updated as well. Also, doing so, you'll see a repeat of a lot of the criticism about GR being too focused on the lower levels.|
Originally Posted by TonyV
While I think that the OP is a troll, I also think this is a fair criticism, presented in a thoughtful, non-trollish manner. Gotta respect that.
The one thing I was a bit disappointed in with Going Rogue is that the old zones didn't get the "ultra mode" treatment. I would absolutely love it if, over the next year or so, they spend at least one or even two issues focusing on revamping existing art and content instead of adding new stuff. I'd love to see Boomtown starting to be rebuilt, Faultline progressing even further (maybe even a big push to officially rename the zone back to "Overbrook"), new ultra mode textures rolled out to at least the starting hero and villain zones, etc. |
And well, I also feel that what you suggest is a bit ambitious of a goal for an issue. Not saying I wouldn't appreciate it, just saying the effort could probably be better spent elsewhere (say, Talos or FF instead--maybe RWZ even, or expanded level region for Praetoria).
Personally, I'd really prefer to the Incarnate system come to fruition and give a bit more validity for end-game characters. Time will tell though
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Let's Dance!
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First, the development team is at minimum 6 times what you're estimating here. There are approximately 60 employees working at Paragon Studios, some of whom I am sure make well in excess of $50,000 a year. |
Originally Posted by HeroJunkie
At 100,000 players paying $15 per month that's $1.5 million per month revenue. If they even spent a third of that on new development it would pay for a team of ten full time programmers and artists each making $50,000 a year. |
And you're completely discounting all of the stuff mentioned in TyrantMikey's post:
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Originally Posted by TyrantMikey
Oh boy.
- City, state, and federal taxes. - Accounting and payroll services. - Advertising. - Internet access. - Phone systems. - Travel expenses. - Employee hiring services. - Employee salaries. - Rent. - Legal fees. - Health insurance. - Dental insurance. - 401ks. - Utilities (power, gas, water, heating & cooling). - Grounds maintenance. - Office supplies. - Computer hardware and software (including internal networks and development systems). - Offsite backup of source code. - Ongoing licensing deals with Cryptic & others. A software company isn't just about maintaining the hosting service. That $15 a month gets split across a wide variety of costs, and I'm willing to wager that you are mind-bogglingly unaware of the vast majority of them. |
Their profit margin is NOT as wide as you'd like to think it is. I'd be surprised if their monthly cost didn't equal or exceed a million dollars.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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Possiblities:|
Originally Posted by HeroJunkie
CoH is a great game, but you can't just play the same stuff over and over forever. There has to be new stuff coming out all the time. You guys are too easily satisfied, I think.
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a) a lot of other people are too easily satisfied
b) some people, like yourself, are too hard to please
c) a lot of other people have a variety of things to do in the game and enjoy it
d) some people, like yourself, don't see the variety*
* You see a field of flowers. All the "same". Others look more closely and find many different kinds of flowers and focus and enjoy the ones they like.
You wanted there to be trees, bushes, waterfalls, etc. among the flowers and say those who are enjoying the variety of the flowers are too easily satisfied.
total kick to the gut
This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.
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Of course you're not. You've got to "prove" you're "right". Right?|
Originally Posted by HeroJunkie
I'm not convinced.
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| A quick internet search on MMO costs pulls up information that inndicates hosting an MMO is less than $1 per month per user. |
Others have already outlined a lot of costs that take bites out of your $15/month.
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| I paid $30 for Going Rogue, so all the new Going Rogue content doesn't count as new content paid for by subscription fees. I also paid for the Martial Arts pack, etc. everything except the Mutant Pack. |
You wanted a lot of "Ooh shiny!". Hence you bought the "Ooh shiny!".
Additionally, you got Issue 18 with Going Rogue. Please familiarize yourself with what constitutes Issue 18. That includes new content.
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| When you look at "free" new content from the subscription fees, there is not that much. |
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| At 100,000 players paying $15 per month that's $1.5 million per month revenue. |
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| If they even spent a third of that on new development it would pay for a team of ten full time programmers and artists each making $50,000 a year. |
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| You're telling me that ten professional game staff, working full time for a year, could only come up with four new powersets, a few new costumes, and a couple dozen new missions? Don't count the Going Rogue stuff I told you I already paid separate for that. |
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| CoH is a great game, but you can't just play the same stuff over and over forever. |
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| There has to be new stuff coming out all the time. |
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| You guys are too easily satisfied, I think. |
Moreover, I play the game for other reasons than to blindly plow through content in some sick completionist drive for "been there, done that, sent postcards". Does this lead me into repetition in play? Sure! But, at times, THIS IS WHAT I AM AIMING FOR!
Honestly, you've been playing for what? Six years? You're probably badly burnt out on the game and probably require an extensive absence from the game before you can come back and look at it objectively.
What is NOT going to happen is for them to simply double the content of the existing game every issue (which is likely what you're looking for). Try asking that of any development crew and prepare for raucous laughter.
Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.
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A "quick internet search" trumps the cost estimates and business projections of a PROFESSIONAL IN THE INDUSTRY in well-cited and well-referenced writings that have been used by startups for budgeting? I did concede that the information was old, but it was current with the designs that the devs used with making this game. |
Originally Posted by HeroJunkie
A quick internet search on MMO costs pulls up information that inndicates hosting an MMO is less than $1 per month per user. I paid $30 for Going Rogue, so all the new Going Rogue content doesn't count as new content paid for by subscription fees. I also paid for the Martial Arts pack, etc. everything except the Mutant Pack.
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Look, there are ways to make the game work with less server load- and therefore less costs. ArenaNet's GuildWars does that nicely-- but you can also see the limitations of the design by what the community zones do and do not offer.
CoH does things better than, say, Eve Online's server setup (which has such massive database read-write that they had to use what was at the time the world's largest solid-state hard drive system to get the response times they needed) but it's far from Guild Wars lean.)
Also be careful of what they're including in that "MMO" estimate-- on may of those sites, MMO can mean everything from Habbo Hotel to web-based multiplayer text games.
Point is, there's a RIDICULOUS amount of costs that goes into every monthly fee.. and these chip it down... and even when you get down to profits that aren't "daily operations" you've got to include a return on the original investment.
Now, you conveniently ignore the rest of that-- that DESPITE all those costs, the devs STILL managed three significant "free" issues last year. I conceded that these were tech-intensive not content-heavy, but since you have little clue as to how much effort goes into that workload, take a moment to visit other MMO's and see how many major updates they release annually, What the CoH dev team has done compares favorably them.
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I call shenanigans on this guy's forum name.|
Originally Posted by HeroJunkie
CoH is a great game, but you can't just play the same stuff over and over forever. There has to be new stuff coming out all the time. You guys are too easily satisfied, I think.
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--NT
They all laughed at me when I said I wanted to be a comedian.
But I showed them, and nobody's laughing at me now!
If I became a red name, I would be all "and what would you mere mortals like to entertain me with today, mu hu ha ha ha!" ~Arcanaville
http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt