All right, YOU have Super Powers. Are you a Hero or a Vigilante?
By
Arcanaville,
Posted on: 2010-08-24 13:23 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
Quote:
I was mostly commenting on the fact that stopping felonies is not technically a crime. There are a great many liability issues, but even Observe and Report Man/Woman would probably be advised to obtain legal counsel if he doesn't have a secret identity, because even there if he involves himself or herself in too many crimes life is likely to become litigious. I'm assuming a superpowered crimefighter would be more concerned about the rule of law rather than the letter of the law. Otherwise just flying to the scene of the crime could trip over who knows how many city ordinances.
|
Originally Posted by Cipher
I was deliberately leaving aside the citizen's arrest issue. LEOs may make a warrantless arrest for a misdemeanor committed in the presence or if they have probable cause to believe a felony has occurred and probable cause to believe that the Defendant committed it. For a citizen, however, probable cause is insufficient. Even overall reasonableness is insufficient -- the person must have ACTUALLY COMMITTED a felony.
This raises a whole host of issues. If Spiderman reads the situation incorrectly, and Defendant has not committed a crime, than Spiderman's act of asporting Defendant to police HQ may become kidnapping. Similarly, there are the civil liability implications. The traditional remedy for an overreaching arrest by a LEO is the exclusionary rule (which, statistically, winds up favoring the prosecution in the overwhelming majority of cases) or at most a sec. 1983 suit (which will require very compelling facts in favor of our Defendant-turned-Plaintiff). For emphasis, if the arrest is unreasonable or was performed in an unreasonable manner, the arresting citizen can be personally liable for damages, while a police officer will be cloaked in the state's immunity in most instances. Even a shopkeeper exercising the traditional privilege is likely only liable for actual damages -- an arresting citizen has no such protection and can be liable for, say, emotional distress or punitive damages. That's why if a client came to me and asked "I want to be a superhero, what advice do you have?" I would say "Be Observe-and-Report Dude or be prepared to lose everything you own." |
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
Quote:
But teleporting, teleporting is probably okay. Don't think there's anything on point there. |
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
I was mostly commenting on the fact that stopping felonies is not technically a crime. There are a great many liability issues, but even Observe and Report Man/Woman would probably be advised to obtain legal counsel if he doesn't have a secret identity, because even there if he involves himself or herself in too many crimes life is likely to become litigious. I'm assuming a superpowered crimefighter would be more concerned about the rule of law rather than the letter of the law. Otherwise just flying to the scene of the crime could trip over who knows how many city ordinances.
|
Yet.
"I believe you find life such a problem because you think there are the good people and the bad people. You're wrong, of course. There are, always and only, the bad people, but some of them are on opposite sides." Lord Vetinari, Guards! Guards! by Terry Pratchett.
Quote:
I think now you're taking my quote out of context.
|
Originally Posted by Hidden Hero
Maybe Death Note too?
|
Quote:
But how do you use teleportation for a heroic act? Vigilantism and Rogue tendencies sure but Heroes I can't see with the ability.|
Originally Posted by Cipher
But teleporting, teleporting is probably okay. Don't think there's anything on point there.
Yet. |
...and before anyone mentions rescuing people in danger I'm assuming your only power is teleportation so you'd be in just as much danger.
I'll toss out that for the completely law abiding hero type, it's not that difficult to just become a sheriff's deputy. Where I live it's almost a given that a martial arts instructor or the owner of a gun store worth their salt has been a deputy at some point for some reason. But then again, there's a town nearby where every homeowner is required to legally own a firearm by city ordinance, so I don't expect that it's the same way in other states.
for that matter, a law-abiding superhero probably wouldn't have a tough time going through full police training. No rule out there saying a cop has to strictly be a mundane citizen. Sure, you don't get quite the choice of snappy heroic outfits, but there's plenty of police uniforms that include masks of some variety. which makes sense considering in some cases an officer has just as much reason as a hero to hide their identity during a bust.
All that is planned fails. All that is born dies.
All that is built crumbles. This will always be true.
But memories remain, And that is beautiful.
Quote:
Except you'd have to tread carefully where you apply your abilities, or you'll be outed by your own colleagues and administration.|
Originally Posted by Feign
for that matter, a law-abiding superhero probably wouldn't have a tough time going through full police training. No rule out there saying a cop has to strictly be a mundane citizen. Sure, you don't get quite the choice of snappy heroic outfits, but there's plenty of police uniforms that include masks of some variety. which makes sense considering in some cases an officer has just as much reason as a hero to hide their identity during a bust.
|
Hard to save people when you're in a lab.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Softcapping an Invuln is fantastic. Softcapping a Willpower is amazing. Softcapping SR is kissing your sister.
|
Vigilante. But not without a Moral Code as you say. I would strive to make the world a better place (either as I see it, or attached to some organisation or other) but ultimately my actions would be for the greater good, and maybe a little bit of revenge for flavour.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by VoodooGirl
[*]Watching out for the Spinning Disco Portal of D00M!*
|
This is v funny:
"So, really, unless your alter ego is Observe-and Report Man/Woman/Dog/Bot, you're a vigilante."
If I had the superpowers I'd like, ie near-omnipotence, I'd be Cole, no question. Only I'd be better at it. No destroyers in my streets, and no Resistance either.
Eco
MArcs:
The Echo, Arc ID 1688 (5mish, easy, drama)
The Audition, Arc ID 221240 (6 mish, complex mech, comedy)
Storming Citadel, Arc ID 379488 (lowbie, 1mish, 10-min timed)
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
[The Incarnate System is] Jack Emmert all over again, only this time it's not "1 hero = 3 white minions" it's "1 hero = 3 white rocks."
|
How would 'Observe-And-Report Man' do the missions we get, I wonder. Just drop a mission every 3 days and RP calling it in by standing next to a nearby payphone? 
eco
MArcs:
The Echo, Arc ID 1688 (5mish, easy, drama)
The Audition, Arc ID 221240 (6 mish, complex mech, comedy)
Storming Citadel, Arc ID 379488 (lowbie, 1mish, 10-min timed)
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
[The Incarnate System is] Jack Emmert all over again, only this time it's not "1 hero = 3 white minions" it's "1 hero = 3 white rocks."
|
I'd have to dispute that Rorschach sails blind without a moral compass - he's very moral, he just doesn't let the law get in the way of justice.
Living in a country where a serial burglar was finally jailed after commiting over 600 offences, and convicted murderers & rapists are regularly released only to offend again, I'd have to go vigilante.
What I'd actually do with that would depend on the power level - if I were an average B class cape, I'd be dropping murderers into mine shafts, but if I were A+ 'Superman' level, I'd be confiscating nukes and dropping them into the sun.
I would probably first off use my powers to ensure I, and my close family, could live a comfortable life. With that done, I'd lean more towards being a humanitarian rather than a crimefighter. There isn't a system of justice, including my own thoughts on the subject, that I believe in enough to fight for.
I'd have to say that I would be a Hero reactively, and vigilante proactively.
Rescuing innocents from mortal danger would take priority over everything, but I would apply myself to exposing and removing the corrupt elements of the system, the linchpins of inequities that any legal framework is ultimately designed to protect. I'd probably focus on making examples of petty warlords of various third-world countries, likely repeatedly until whoever rose to power learned from earlier examples. The "do not kill" rule would be the only one I would follow without exception, but mostly for pragmatic reasons - while killing a person robs them of their chance to redeem themselves, it also robs the irredeemable of the chance to suffer.
Depends on the powers. If I can get away with it, I'm a Rogue. If they're straightforward enough that Detective Bob at the local police department can crack my secret identity in ten minutes, I'm a Hero.
Having Vengeance and Fallout slotted for recharge means never having to say you're sorry.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
It depends, in part, on the powers. If all I can do is make sparkly lights and magically give people the perfect hair for their outfit, it's not going to do me a lot of good to fight crime.
Now, if we're talking "I am a god," (or at least significantly powerful/superman-ish enough) where I don't particularly have to worry about being arrested (because, unless I turn myself in, who's going to be able to hold me?) then by definition I'd be a vigilante. Keep myself to a moral code, yeah, but what I'd be doing would by definition be outside the law... nationally and internationally, as there's no way I'd be staying inside borders if I could move quickly enough. Of course, depending on who's doing the labeling, I'm sure I'd be called a villain at times, too. All depending on point of view. |
I have to agree with Bill on this. I'd use some powers for good and others would probably end up corrupting me. I don't think I'd like what I'd turn into if I had powers like Prof. Xavier.
If we are talking about a "real world" situation and my reactions personally, then it really depends entirely on what powers I've got.
Frankly, if I'm not bullet, baseball bat, tire iron, and/or rocket launcher proof, then I'm not doing anything other than maybe trying to find a way to use my powers to make a buck.
It's kind of pointless to be a "super hero" when the first punk with a revolver ends your "career" permanently.
If we go with the assumption that I'm A) invulnerable enough to survive pretty much any damage and B) powerful enough to "take out" pretty much anyone I need to and C) somehow untracable enough that I won't end up in jail and/or a government lab somewhere, then yeah I'd be a vigilante all the way.
I'm busting local crime . . . and taking the money from them . . . got to pay for things somehow.
Most of the time, it's probably just a good beat-down, but I'm very much of the opinion that there are plenty of people who just need to be eliminated permanently, and (going with the 'no real world repercussions' theory) I'd be more than willing to do the taking out.
Where things really start to get problematic is when you start looking beyond the local level. How do you make sure that you don't make things worse than they already are? You go take out that terrorist cell, ok, but now there are 2 more cells that are so afraid of you showing up that they decide to up the ante before you get to them. You try to take down the leader of that country who's obviously evil/twisted, and he decides to launch the nukes before you can destroy them, etc, etc, etc.
6000+ levels gained and 8 level 50's
Hello, my name is Soulwind and I have Alt-Itis.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Chaos Creator
I think now you're taking my quote out of context.
|
If I did, sorry.
If you're talking Batman level powers, where basically my powers are "figure stuff out" and "beat people up", I'd probably do nothing with them. I'm not really motivated enough to work with that.
I might use the "figure stuff out" power to make money and enact more philanthropy, though. It can be argued that Superman is horribly misusing his talents by stopping petty (or even grand) crime.
Vigilante. As per Rorschaces defining moment, some people are animals, and can not be fixed. Leaving them alive makes no sense.
Quote:
It also makes you an animal for killing them.
|
Originally Posted by BlackArachnia
Vigilante. As per Rorschaces defining moment, some people are animals, and can not be fixed. Leaving them alive makes no sense.
|
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
<QR>
Vigilante, unless I could be made an honorary police officer.
Quote:
Off topic, but I just remembered that once being able to magically change hair styles ultimately led to one of the bigger heroic moments in (web)comicdom.
|
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
It depends, in part, on the powers. If all I can do is make sparkly lights and magically give people the perfect hair for their outfit, it's not going to do me a lot of good to fight crime.
|
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
Quote:
No, it would make me an animal if I tortured them to death. A clean kill, just like I would do to a rabid animal. There would be no pleasure in the act, just the hard cold truth of necessity.
|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
It also makes you an animal for killing them.
|
No, you'd still be an animal for lowering yourself to their level.
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
This raises a whole host of issues. If Spiderman reads the situation incorrectly, and Defendant has not committed a crime, than Spiderman's act of asporting Defendant to police HQ may become kidnapping. Similarly, there are the civil liability implications. The traditional remedy for an overreaching arrest by a LEO is the exclusionary rule (which, statistically, winds up favoring the prosecution in the overwhelming majority of cases) or at most a sec. 1983 suit (which will require very compelling facts in favor of our Defendant-turned-Plaintiff).
For emphasis, if the arrest is unreasonable or was performed in an unreasonable manner, the arresting citizen can be personally liable for damages, while a police officer will be cloaked in the state's immunity in most instances. Even a shopkeeper exercising the traditional privilege is likely only liable for actual damages -- an arresting citizen has no such protection and can be liable for, say, emotional distress or punitive damages.
That's why if a client came to me and asked "I want to be a superhero, what advice do you have?" I would say "Be Observe-and-Report Dude or be prepared to lose everything you own."
"I believe you find life such a problem because you think there are the good people and the bad people. You're wrong, of course. There are, always and only, the bad people, but some of them are on opposite sides." Lord Vetinari, Guards! Guards! by Terry Pratchett.