All right, YOU have Super Powers. Are you a Hero or a Vigilante?
By
Arcanaville,
Posted on: 2010-08-24 13:23 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
Before I would even consider saving anyone..first thing I'd do would be to make myself rich. Hey.. I've got three kids that are gonna wanna go to college at some point, not ta mention bills and all the other **** I just simply would like to have. Although this would only work if no one knew it was me doing things suchs as robbing banks, and I would have to make sure my kids never found out...but hey..it'd be worth it.
To hell with morals, they only get in the way of something called fun.
Quote:
This all depends on how rigorously someone would apply themselves to such a coda.|
Originally Posted by SpittingTrashcan
I just wanted to call this out. More brutal law enforcement is not more effective. This is a commonly held and horribly pernicious fallacy. Casual brutality with an indifferent attitude toward guilt discourages the innocent - and the lesser guilty - from lending vital aid in the form of information, testimony, etcetera. Despite being repeatedly discredited, this "tough on crime" attitude stills informs the public and political will to a dismaying degree. Please do not base your thought experiment on this false premise. Being a vigilante may be more emotionally appealing and it may allow you to force a success in specific cases but on the whole it is not more effective than responsible policing.
|
You could just be the tough-guy cop who occasionally uses some "excessive" force when dealing with perps.
Or you could be some super-powered Frank Castle who's killed more people (hopefully under the radar) than the bubonic plague, HIV and every war within the last two centuries (hot or cold).
Yes, such a situation would likely be intolerable for a good chunk of the populace.
You jaywalked. *BLAM*
You littered. *BUDDABUDDABUDDA*
You know what you did to that girl. Now you'll know what it feels like to BE one for the couple days before I let you die... *Pulls huge honkin' knife with a dull, rusty edge*
But, you straight-out KILL enough lawbreakers, and sooner or later there simply isn't any serious crime. Simply through lack of people to commit them.
Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.
Quote:
Sorry, but I'm dead serious just like this guy:|
Originally Posted by Marcian Tobay
I hope the people picking Rogue and Villain know I'm not speaking in-character...
 |
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Scythus
I know. I'm deathly serious. I don't like other people much.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
This all depends on how rigorously someone would apply themselves to such a coda.
You could just be the tough-guy cop who occasionally uses some "excessive" force when dealing with perps. Or you could be some super-powered Frank Castle who's killed more people (hopefully under the radar) than the bubonic plague, HIV and every war within the last two centuries (hot or cold). Yes, such a situation would likely be intolerable for a good chunk of the populace. You jaywalked. *BLAM* You littered. *BUDDABUDDABUDDA* You know what you did to that girl. Now you'll know what it feels like to BE one for the couple days before I let you die... *Pulls huge honkin' knife with a dull, rusty edge* But, you straight-out KILL enough lawbreakers, and sooner or later there simply isn't any serious crime. Simply through lack of people to commit them. |
Hero, but that means a REAL hero, not the superhero fantasy. I don't consider it heroic to go beat up 'bad guys,' which is why, until GR introduced hero stories that involve specifically helping people in contrast to vigilantism, I could not get into the hero thing as presented in game.
I would use powers to build money for philanthropy, protect the environment, and gain influence to promote change in society.
If others had them, both this topic and human nature suggest the ones I might have to battle would not be common criminals, but vigilantes.
A game is not supposed to be some kind of... place where people enjoy themselves!
I'm currently bitter, so I will go supervillain, however I will not deal with penny-ante street crime. I'm going into government and then energy exploration.
Quote:
Not every crime and there are dozens of caveats to that. You did say "reasonable action," and in many cases that amounts to calling the cops. The one major place where you're right is that you make use force in defense of others, but you better be DAMN sure know you're in the right. |
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Even regular citizens have the right to take reasonable action to prevent or stop a crime from being committed. Where their right tends to end is tracking criminals down after the fact and beating the crap out of them.
|
Bill's example of killing someone attacking a woman. Unless you know the score you can find yourself in prison for a long time.
Basically, the police can't just take the law into their own hands, I'm not sure why everyone else thinks they can. Having defended police officers when they've been accused of going to far, I just have a different perspective than a lot of you. You'd have to be an idiot to be a vigilante like Batman or Superman. City of Heroes did a great job in covering this by creating the fiction that superheroes are deputized and registered.
In fact, one of my villains went to jail precisely because she DIDN'T get her hero card before taking out the folks who killed her fiance.
Quote:
|
The interesting problem is that most normal citizens that are victims of a crime or otherwise entangled in one can often reasonably claim that their lives were potentially in danger. If you were bullet proof, say, you couldn't make that claim. You could be standing in a 7-11 while it was being robbed by a man with a bazooka, and at no time could you claim that you had to act to prevent harm to yourself. You could claim to be protecting others, but if there were no others around, it can get weirdly murky as to the legal latitude you have to stop a crime when you aren't personally threatened. Might be better to be blaster than tanker in the legal sense. |
Screw that. If I develop super-powers, I'm becoming an entertainer like Spiderman did, I don't have any uncles!
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
Quote:
Heroes in City of Heroes have always bugged me in that they get a pass to do whatever it takes to clean up Paragon City. Many, in canon, proceed to take their claws and do moves called "Eviscerate". To loiterers.|
Originally Posted by ChaosExMachina
Hero, but that means a REAL hero, not the superhero fantasy. I don't consider it heroic to go beat up 'bad guys,' which is why, until GR introduced hero stories that involve specifically helping people in contrast to vigilantism, I could not get into the hero thing as presented in game.
|
The implications of that are unsettling to me. One of the reasons I prefer villains: They're more... honest.
Quote:
interestingly, this is exactly why my longbow special agent (One of the nuclear 90, a rad/DP defender) ONLY street sweeps against enemies actively doing something criminal. (I.E. threatening or robbing someone)|
Originally Posted by Marcian Tobay
Heroes in City of Heroes have always bugged me in that they get a pass to do whatever it takes to clean up Paragon City. Many, in canon, proceed to take their claws and do moves called "Eviscerate". To loiterers.
The implications of that are unsettling to me. One of the reasons I prefer villains: They're more... honest. |
Otherwise, you leave her alone, and she'll leave you alone. ... Which we all know that if you pass by aggro range, even when you're just trying to get to your mission door, they never will.
But I liked playing her like this because it subverts both standard hero street sweeping AND being Longbow.
Click here to find all the All Things Art Threads!
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
City of Heroes is a game about freedom of expression and variety of experiences far more so than it is about representing any one theme, topic or genre.
|
The trouble with the question is that it's framed in terms of the real world. In the real world, even someone like Superman would routinely exceed the limits of the law and tread into vigilantism. There's just not a lot of ROOM in law enforcement for private citizens, which is as it should be.
While someone like Batman makes for compelling fiction, the fact that he takes the law into his own hands is dangerous and problematic.
Mugger beats up Victim and leaves him in the alley. Batman sees this so he beats up Mugger and leaves him on the steps of Gotham Central.
It's the same act. The same crime. The motive is different, but motive's not an element. The mens rea and the actus reus are identical, and the fact that Batman was "enforcing" the law is irrelevant. If both go to trial, both should be convicted.
So, really, unless your alter ego is Observe-and Report Man/Woman/Dog/Bot, you're a vigilante.
"I believe you find life such a problem because you think there are the good people and the bad people. You're wrong, of course. There are, always and only, the bad people, but some of them are on opposite sides." Lord Vetinari, Guards! Guards! by Terry Pratchett.
There are lots of powers I can think of that would be cooler than any in game, but if I were to use them as a general hint, FF/Invul tankfender with teleport, heal, and bots pools. To a pacificist who is a REAL hero that's what would be useful and less likely to lead to the moral questions that are inherent to the fantasy.
A game is not supposed to be some kind of... place where people enjoy themselves!
Okay, I thought about it and I have my serious answer: I probably would stay a private citizen. I would not feel comfortable taking the law into my own hands. I would volunteer or even change jobs to emergency response so I could use my powers to help people, but I wouldn't patrol or hunt for crimes.
However if liability issues proved to be too high for me to be employed using my powers to help people, I would fade into the background and use my powers for leisure and profit.
Quote:
I once asked forumers: "If you had a gun full of bullets and that gun was completely above the law in every way, what would you do?" Of the almost a hundred answers, only one person said "Waste the bullets before anyone gets hurt".|
Originally Posted by Divus
Okay, I thought about it and I have my serious answer: I probably would stay a private citizen. I would not feel comfortable taking the law into my own hands. I would volunteer or even change jobs to emergency response.
|
I think it's a brilliant answer. Again, I don't want to say that there's a right answer. If posts are mementos, however, I'd put that one on my wall.
Quote:
Pretty much this for me as well.|
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
My "moral code" is fuzzy at best, Marcian. I see absolutely nothing wrong with permanently removing problematic individuals from society.
|
Mind you, I doubt I'd actively go out searching for lawbreakers, any crimefighting I'd do would likely be a happenstance thing.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Cipher
The trouble with the question is that it's framed in terms of the real world. In the real world, even someone like Superman would routinely exceed the limits of the law and tread into vigilantism. There's just not a lot of ROOM in law enforcement for private citizens, which is as it should be.
While someone like Batman makes for compelling fiction, the fact that he takes the law into his own hands is dangerous and problematic. Mugger beats up Victim and leaves him in the alley. Batman sees this so he beats up Mugger and leaves him on the steps of Gotham Central. It's the same act. The same crime. The motive is different, but motive's not an element. The mens rea and the actus reus are identical, and the fact that Batman was "enforcing" the law is irrelevant. If both go to trial, both should be convicted. So, really, unless your alter ego is Observe-and Report Man/Woman/Dog/Bot, you're a vigilante. |
And plus, in the real world if you had super powers you would either
A) be crated to a lab to be experimented on
or
B) held by the government and used as a weapon ala Dr. Manhattan.
It totally depends on exactly which super power I have. In any case, the answer is fuzzy.
I don't like the law currently in the least. I feel that the government has become a lumbering, clumsy behemoth that punishes the wrong people far too often in the name of politics. This puts me firmly in the "vigilante" category, but not in the normal way. However, I have a very concrete moral code, and don't believe that this moral code should stretch in the slightest for things like vengeance.
Not exactly the same as Captain America during the Civil War arc, but similar (granted, look how well that turned out for him). I strive to be right even when the law is wrong. I feel I'd be too busy fighting the government to even bother with petty criminals.
tl;dr Put me down for Resistance Warden.
All that is planned fails. All that is born dies.
All that is built crumbles. This will always be true.
But memories remain, And that is beautiful.
Quote:
Other answers to that question.
|
Originally Posted by Marcian Tobay
I once asked forumers: "If you had a gun full of bullets and that gun was completely above the law in every way, what would you do?" Of the almost a hundred answers, only one person said "Waste the bullets before anyone gets hurt".
I think it's a brilliant answer. Again, I don't want to say that there's a right answer. If posts are mementos, however, I'd put that one on my wall. |
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
Vigilante
- I know my own fallibility. Though many of my friends consider me morally "old fashioned", I know myself well enough that under certain circumstances, my temper would just get the best of me.
- .
- Corruption. I have no faith in the current legal/justice system. Actually, I don't have faith in any legal/justice system... there is just too much political corruption worldwide. In this sense, I agree with others who've said it would be nearly impossible to be a hero as defined in the OP.
- .
- Grudges. Yeah, I carry 'em. I'm the kind of person who tends to gnaw on a bone... at least for a little while.
.
Quote:
|
Don�t say things. What you are stands over you the while, and thunders so that I cannot hear what you say to the contrary. - R.W. Emerson |
YUMMY Low-Hanging Fruit for BASE LUV
I would end up being totally vigilante. If I wanted to enforce the law as it is I would become a police officer. I don't, because in many cases I don't agree with it.
As for killing people, what's to say I have any less moral authority to decide who lives or dies than all the people who currently decide these things? I'd say I have a lot more moral authority than a lot of the people who currently get to decide these things, since I'm not motivated by political expediency or stupid amounts of money.
I wouldn't be going after muggers anyway. Maybe when I'm bored. If I had actual super powers, no matter how minor, I'd be on a total "save the world" kick. I'd be going after politicians, corporations, dictators, militaries, that sort of thing. Of course I'd be breaking laws all over the place, but I do draw the line at putting innocent people in harm's way.
Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World
Quote:
That's where the question came from. Gah, I adore Arcanaville. |
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
|
Quote:
Actually, you don't have to be completely passive. Citizen's arrest laws allow you to use force to stop a felony and detain suspected criminals that you personally witnessed commit a crime until the police arrive, or transport them to a police station. Batman can't hunt down criminals just because he thinks they are criminals, but he can use reasonable force to stop a criminal that is actually in the act of committing a crime. And he can use reasonable force to defend himself from said criminal if that criminal threatens him with physical harm.|
Originally Posted by Cipher
The trouble with the question is that it's framed in terms of the real world. In the real world, even someone like Superman would routinely exceed the limits of the law and tread into vigilantism. There's just not a lot of ROOM in law enforcement for private citizens, which is as it should be.
While someone like Batman makes for compelling fiction, the fact that he takes the law into his own hands is dangerous and problematic. Mugger beats up Victim and leaves him in the alley. Batman sees this so he beats up Mugger and leaves him on the steps of Gotham Central. It's the same act. The same crime. The motive is different, but motive's not an element. The mens rea and the actus reus are identical, and the fact that Batman was "enforcing" the law is irrelevant. If both go to trial, both should be convicted. So, really, unless your alter ego is Observe-and Report Man/Woman/Dog/Bot, you're a vigilante. |
The definition of "reasonable" is somewhat subject to context.
In your example, if Batman blocked the exit to the alley and told the criminal that he called the police, and to stay where he was, if the criminal decided to attack Batman to escape, Batman has no legal requirement to get out of the way if he is attempting to make a citizen's arrest.
Actually, the best example of a citizen's arrest model for superheroes is probably Spiderman. That "web them up and leave them for the police" is the very model of using only enough force to restrain without unnecessary harm that is the requirement for a citizen's arrest.
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Chaos Creator
This reminds me of .. Naruto >.< also Code Geass (which is a less commonly known anime) but the point is if you cause a big enough disaster and have proof you can cause more you instill fear into people to behave. If they stop behaving well you cause a disaster again.
|
Or Dominion: Tank Police.
Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
Or Dominion: Tank Police.
|
Maybe Death Note too?
Okay, power corrupts.
Absolute power? It's kinda neat!
Honestly. I wouldn't trust myself with top-end Superman levels of power. Quite simply I don't have the phlegmatic temperment for it. Nor do I have any great love for my fellow man. Sooner or later (sooner really), someone would tick me off and wind up feeling envious of a bug on a windshield...
Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.
I don't have superpowers and I'm a hero. Though if I did have them, I might be a villain. I'm being realistic though. I mean are we talking flight, or telepathy, or the ability to spontaneously blow up anything you get angry at? 'Cause really, it would take a superhero to stop somebody like that even if they had started with the best of intentions.
you could have it all
My empire of dirt
I will let you down
I will make you <3
I'm a vigilante, I have no qualm about being judge, jury and executioner. Thats not to say I'd get all Big Daddy and Hit Girl on every law breaker I came across, but if the situation warranted it I wouldn't shed a tear over using excessive force to minimize collateral damage. Call me a monster, I'm fine with that, the results are more important than the method.
------->"Sic Semper Tyrannis"<-------